Community Feedback Update - July 19 - Page 5

On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote:
Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point.

The point is twofold:

First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units.

Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran.

I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast.

The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy.

Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth.

If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies.

But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment.

Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep.

Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire.

The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining.

And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory.

So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins.

Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins.

I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy.


Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg.

On July 22 2018 11:44 avilo wrote:
I forget which Zerg it was, they said, "oh stop first attack, stop next one, stop one more attack Zerg win."

On July 22 2018 05:02 KalWarkov wrote:


cuz there isn't much wrong with it.

what might need some addressing is warpprism pickup range and offensive use of shield batteries. but if you address that, you have to address hydra/baneling as well, and we start from scratch again.

On July 22 2018 21:54 SHODAN wrote:


have you tried the battle.net forums? I think that's more your scene, judging by the quality of your post. ctrl+f "pdd"

this is the only other result for "pdd", beside your post:



a perfectly reasonable suggestion for the raven, put forward with a positive attitude. if you really want to get fucked by turtle ravens that badly, fine. nobody's judging you. just try to keep your masochistic fantasies to yourself, weirdo.

On July 21 2018 13:09 DomeGetta wrote:


Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it.