On August 13 2018 23:48 Ransomstarcraft wrote: I was kind of surprised this didn't have its own forum on TL, but I also think this falls under community feedback. Beastyqt uploaded a video recently on why he quit playing Terran. I think his points are reasonable.
It feels more : "Playing another race after playing one for years is fun, and refreshing".
But all what he said is the same with other races. Like zerg openers are 99% the same. And it hasn't much changed since Wol.
You take 3 bases, drones, because 1 base or 2 bases strat doesn't work, no way to harass the other.
The only new things zerg had like overlord drop are gone. No one goes for speed ovie anymore, except for scouting but you put yourself behind. No one goes for burrow, nor ravager because it doesn't do anything but cost you much, so drone hard is the only thing you can do.
You keep defending vs thousands different openers photon rush, dt/archons, blink, oracle, phoenix, adepts, HT drops, immortal/chargelots push, stalker, bunker rush, 2/1/1, banshee,hellions/banshee, hellions drops, hellbat push, cyclon/hellbats, WM drops, liberator harass, tank/marine push, and you should adjust your army if it's bio or mech, and you can't choose what you want to play, the other decide for you.
And pretty sure protoss players will complain they need to go stargate every game, can't walk freely on the map, should care about not being out of position, else their base will get destroyed in 5s, that they need to protect preciously their high tech units, because else their gateways units are crushed by the T1-T2 of the other races, that if they walk on WM or lurkers they lose the game too.
I agree mostly (this is why I was so surprised when I realised you were the author to the previous balance whine, haha). Each race has their difficulties and each race has fun and boring aspects to it. You need to figure out what works best for you and feels most fun. But I can just imagine that playing years and years of the same race could get boring (or seem like work), as with any sport or activity. Lets see how BeastyQT feels about this in a few more months/years.
On a side note: I really struggle with zerg ATM as protoss (Gold 1/Plat 3). Maybe I'm just too scared of zerg rushes and end up teching and/or expanding too slowly but I either get annihilated in the first few minutes of the game with a zergling, roach or roach-ravager rush, or a little later with a queen/roach nydus, or get destroyed late-game with a roach-hydra or lurker play on a superior economy. I find Terran easy to beat in comparison, Protoss is manageable, and am somehow better at playing vs zerg with Terran (on only 20 games). I would likely be Plat 1 if it wasn't for zerg T_T, must just be my play-style..
I've been saying this since the first 3 months passed after the major rework, terran does feel extremely limited. At first, it felt like terrans could open a few ways after the major rework. Then protosses/zergs figured out how to deal with the openings and they become obsolete. All zerg/protoss has to do is learn how to deal with these initial builds/openings and know what to scout for an they are golden. They figure out how to buy enough time to get to tier 3 and then what? They just win unless you accidentally suicide your army.
Terran is still on a timer to win. Blizzard can't not give terran late game strength if zergs/protoss have ALL of the tools to deflect and deal with our early and midgame. What are terrans supposed to do? Why do zergs/protosses get tools/ways to deal with terran at all stages of the game but terran doesn't get ways to deal with protoss/zerg at all stages of the game? It's a double standard and unfair.
I don't even know what to say about the fact that protoss/zergs have the ability play many different ways/open many different ways. Zergs can be ultra aggressive early on or they can sit back and macro. Protoss has so many different openings it's kind of silly.
Where are the options for terran? Where are the early game build order options? Where are the late game options to deal with protoss/zerg late game?
Terran needs new toys or substantial buffs to some older ones. Terran needs more ways to interact with their opponent.
Does anyone actually remember the reaper from the alpha test of sc2? Skip to 6:25-6:30 of this video.
I'd love to have this in my arsenal. Obviously it would be a little ridiculous if you could use the ability over and over, but what if the charges were a one time use? I feel like reaper harass hit squads could be a thing throughout every stage of the game providing exciting opportunities for interactive gameplay between 2 players as well as fantastic moments to watch as a spectator. It would also have a use in the main army. It would serve as a pseudo vulture essentially. Man i'd kill to have something fun like this. Ask yourself this. Is the current reaper a good unit? you could say it fills its role for the first 2 minutes of the game, sure, but that's it. It's essentially bad and useless after that. It needs either some sort of 50gas/50mineral techlab upgrade or the base abilities it comes with need to be buffed/reworked. No other race has units that are bad/useless late game, why should terran?
I think mapmakers should also deter from making bases have only one or two entry ways into the main. Just use regular cliffs where a reaper could enter from anywhere. Making it so there is only 1 or 2 entry ways into the main hurts because terrans/protosses can easily wall off thus nullifying the unit entirely. This type of practice essentially hurts the value of the reaper and removes an instance where terran could have a way to interact with their opponent.
Also, Why does the marauder still require a 50gas/50mineral concussive shell upgrade? If I recall correctly, the upgrade was added during WoL beta because the strength of the kiting ability was too strong early game versus protoss Blizzard has since changed the way the economy works and protoss can readily have enough defense to not automatically lose to early marauders. That leads me to ask well, if the ability can't be abused early game anymore, why does it need to be an upgrade that terran needs to pay for? It doesn't. My only incentive to purchase the upgrade is so that the marauders don't suck. Maybe terrans might have a little flexibility in early game aggressive openings in tvt/tvp if the marauders came with concussive shell for free and terrans could spend the 50 gas towards tech instead. It could increase diversity in the early game on a small margin which is always a plus. Everyone likes diversity right?
These are just a couple of areas that I think need changes. I'm sure more areas will come to mind. When it comes to sc2, I think the game should have diverse options for each race at all stages of the game, different ways to play each matchup as well as many ways to interact with your opponent. The feedback I provide will be geared towards supporting those principles that I believe make an RTS game both fun to play and fun to watch from a spectator perspective.
Since we're still waiting on some kind of Community Feedback update, I'll comment again on this one.
It seems to me that the central problem with Terran design versus what Protoss and Zerg received in LOTV and the major overhaul last year is this:
Protoss and Zerg were given units and buffs that curbed their weaknesses as well as accentuating their strengths. Terran was given units that fill roles that are already better filled by other units.
1. Protoss - Because of the addition of the Adept and the buff of the Zealot, Protoss has effectively gained infantry. - In the past, Protoss design revolved around being forced to spend resources on costly Gateway units in order to get to its powerful late game army. Now, Protoss is much more versatile. - This is even more true when you consider the change to the Warp Prism. Back door warp prism harass is much deadlier and much more difficult to stop for all 3 races in LOTV.
2. Zerg - Because of the addition of Ravagers and to a lesser degree Lurkers, Zerg has effectively gained burst and splash damage with its already formidable tanking units. - This is why you see so many more immediate ends to games in ZvP and particularly ZvT. Banelings are the go-to for a commanding end to a game right now, but often if a game ends early in ZvT, the Ravager is the primary culprit.
3. Terran - The addition of the Cyclone does not do what it was originally designed to do: keep the Terran alive to the mid-game. The efficiency of Cyclones rarely matches their cost. Like so many other Factory units, the Cyclone is useful in certain situations and then falls off to near uselessness. - Liberators - The Liberator is a useful unit, but as an up-front unit it zones similarly to siege tanks, and as a harass unit it is a niche weapon similar to a Banshee or Medivac drop. - The Widow Mine nerf makes them completely unreliable. It is now a more expensive Baneling that is more difficult to produce and with less general utility. In my opinion, Terran had a net loss by losing the old widow mine drop and gaining the Liberator as a harass unit.
My point is this: Terran has three major holes in its current design: 1. Tanking units 2. Consistent detection 3. Stability/sustainability/flexibility
As a for instance, consider the utility of a Terran army that had no access to Widow Mines, Hellbats, or Cyclones, but instead had access to two units: Medics and Firebats.
Medics would allow Terran to have the versatility that Zerg and Protoss have: picking a timing, from early to mid-game, and producing a large, sustainable force that makes for a definite timing attack.
Firebats would allow Terran to tank damage and stand against Zealots and Zerglings. While the Hit Points of Hellbats have been tweaked, Hellbats have never had stim. Their slow speed is the number 1 reason why they have very little use, followed by a close second: they don't do enough dps when they do reach their target.
I bring up these two units not because they are the only possibilities, but because they illustrate the 3 issues I mentioned earlier. Medics heal a unit and functionally make that unit being healed a "tanking" unit of sorts. Firebats would be the most likely candidate for that tanking job, but would also add versatility to the Terran army by giving them a tanking unit that, frankly, doesn't suck.
Finally, a change like this would solve another fundamental Terran design problem. As soon as you make any bio unit, you know they are not sustainable until you can get a considerable amount of medivacs out. This means your Starport is tied up well before you even build it. This is the greatest reason why Terran cannot get to sustainable detection like Ravens: You always need Medivacs 2-5 minutes before they're even available on the tech tree, which puts you behind on them from the word go.
Again, this is a design problem, not a balance one. There are a lot of ways to approach it, this is just one. The Widow Mine or Hellbat could be overhauled to give greater space control when sieged and unable to move, or all Bio units could be made mechanical as well (like hellbats) and therefore able to be repaired by SCV's. In this scenario, the return of the Raven's repair drone might make sense in some version.
id like to ask you to explain what you mean by terran not having "stability and sustainability" lol i think that point alone is enough to wreck the credibility of what you're trying to say. you're using generic terms without explaining what you mean and applying them all to terran as design flaws.
"sustainability"? ive played this game for years and pretty much always terran has been the race with the strongest comeback mechanics due to MULE/Marine/Medivac mineral efficiency (and that's not me saying terran is too strong, it's just one of the elements of the race, unique from the others as it should be). it seems like you're trying to make your argument just by rephrasing things and using different terms when what you're truly communicating is "i play terran and terran is weak" like everyone else.
edit: also, the units you want buffed were already buffed and both times it resulted in laughably strong drop builds that murdered mineral lines.
I sencerely hope that they don't do any changes at all because the game is in a fantastic state overall. So sick of those (especially terran) whiners who keep theorycrafting with their limited game knowledge and little experience in every thread, instead of playing the game. "This blah blah change to hellbat/medivac w/e will solve that imbalance/design flaw". For gods sake. Just git gud.
Welp, I guess I should just learn to play like Maru. Maybe after 15-30 medivac drops, if I don't lose any units from them, I'll take advantage of this wonderful Terran design. Thanks for the advice friends.
In the meantime
Terran has terrible late game. Terran has very little diversity in openers. Half of the units serve no role or a small niche and certainly don't mesh together.
Beastyqt quit Terran for just these reasons. If you believe he's just another scrub, your opinion is of no value to me.
On Sustainability: 2. pertaining to a system that maintains its own viability by using techniques that allow for continual reuse (From Dictionary.com)
Bio units do not heal like Protoss or Zerg units do. They can be healed, but this option is high in the tech tree. I wrote a design post claiming I believe this is a problem with Terran design.
He is right. Terran has not so many openers. I'd say a few... And it's not fun. Even Maru can't do anything sometimes. And it's actually an argument. Very solid. It's boring.
On August 28 2018 16:20 insitelol wrote: I sencerely hope that they don't do any changes at all because the game is in a fantastic state overall. So sick of those (especially terran) whiners who keep theorycrafting with their limited game knowledge and little experience in every thread, instead of playing the game. "This blah blah change to hellbat/medivac w/e will solve that imbalance/design flaw". For gods sake. Just git gud.
This. A thousand times this. I'm so sick of these pointless redesign patches that take months to sort out the finer details on and leave us no better than when we started. And the constant complaining that I hear from Terran players despite most of their wishes being granted by the balance team drives me up the wall. For example the balance team pretty much bent over backwards for mech players in 2016-2017 and yet we still hear about how mech needs buffs to anti air. I wish half that amount of consideration was given to roach ravager since, like bio and mech, ling bane and roach ravager depend on separate upgrades and are distinct styles on their own.
Weird how people think that skill level is somehow connected to knowing that terran has only 2 options every game. It's BORING as hell. You either cheese proxy someone(which is stupid as shit) or you go 1 rax reaper expand into 5 rax, tank or mines + medivacs. It's boring as shit. It's the same shit day in and day out for the last 8 years. Terran has no variety in openings, has become extremely boring to play and it doesn't take someone with the skill level of Maru to realize it or say it in a thread lol. Why would I spend my time to "git gud" when the race is completely stagnant and boring? I'm just going to wait until blizzard fixes the issue and continue to voice my concerns.
On August 29 2018 00:43 ReachTheSky wrote: Weird how people think that skill level is somehow connected to knowing that terran has only 2 options every game. It's BORING as hell. You either cheese proxy someone(which is stupid as shit) or you go 1 rax reaper expand into 5 rax, tank or mines + medivacs. It's boring as shit. It's the same shit day in and day out for the last 8 years. Terran has no variety in openings, has become extremely boring to play and it doesn't take someone with the skill level of Maru to realize it or say it in a thread lol. Why would I spend my time to "git gud" when the race is completely stagnant and boring? I'm just going to wait until blizzard fixes the issue and continue to voice my concerns.
Just because you think terran is boring doesn't mean it is. I don't know where this "terran has no options" comes from. You can proxy, 2/1/1, Hellion opening with medivac/banshee/liberator/Viking, Hellbat timing, Cyclone allin, widow mine drop, 2 base bio allin and transition into Bio or Mech (at least in 2 out of 3 matchups). When you compare it to the other races you will realize that they don't have much more options except maybe Protoss in PvT. About the "terran has no lategame" part, that may be true in TvP but in TvZ terran actually has a strong lategame with Ghost/Liberator.
1. Terran has options in opening and playstyles. 2. Ask flash if he is having fun with 8 units and very few openings/BO/playstyles he had for 10+ years with no redesign (or even balance) patches. Or ask a Ronaldo or Messi are they having fun with set of rules they got for 100+ years. 3. Having fun (which of course may be an issue) is such an overused and hyporitical excuse for just being bad that i can't take it seriously. While there is no objective indicator of terran being "not fun to play" (numbers are fine in both population and balance) you just have to live with it or quit.
On August 29 2018 00:43 ReachTheSky wrote: Weird how people think that skill level is somehow connected to knowing that terran has only 2 options every game. It's BORING as hell. You either cheese proxy someone(which is stupid as shit) or you go 1 rax reaper expand into 5 rax, tank or mines + medivacs. It's boring as shit. It's the same shit day in and day out for the last 8 years. Terran has no variety in openings, has become extremely boring to play and it doesn't take someone with the skill level of Maru to realize it or say it in a thread lol. Why would I spend my time to "git gud" when the race is completely stagnant and boring? I'm just going to wait until blizzard fixes the issue and continue to voice my concerns.
Just because you think terran is boring doesn't mean it is. I don't know where this "terran has no options" comes from. You can proxy, 2/1/1, Hellion opening with medivac/banshee/liberator/Viking, Hellbat timing, Cyclone allin, widow mine drop, 2 base bio allin and transition into Bio or Mech (at least in 2 out of 3 matchups). When you compare it to the other races you will realize that they don't have much more options except maybe Protoss in PvT. About the "terran has no lategame" part, that may be true in TvP but in TvZ terran actually has a strong lategame with Ghost/Liberator.
To join the terran design discussion, first I feel like it would be good to remind everyone that Protoss and Zerg design is good overall, and this should NOT be changed, whatever terrans problems are. You can have fun playing both races, play very different styles and that is good. You could only say that protoss standard PvZ relies a bit too much on stargate, but even then you can find counter examples, and what happens after the stargate opener can be many different things.
Second, terran lategame is bad atm. You can't deny that. You just can't sit back on equal foot and hope for a fair fight with T3 units against P or Z (against Z it's a bit better, but still far from good), therefore you have a timer. And finally the race feels not fun to play, mostly due to limited numbers of openings, and because of the natural timer on the race as well. People invoking 2-1-1, hellion builds into 1 gazillion things, or hellbat timings in TvZ forget that most of these strats are not viable at equal skill. Players have mostly figured out terran way of playing and have direct counters to those builds, and it's not gonna change because all those builds are very easy to scout, specially for zerg.
To sum up what often comes in discussion or could improve things :
1) The battlecruiser (I wish we had stats on that somewhere) is most probably the most unused unit in the game. In pro play it has like never been used for months AFAK. There is no other unit like that in protoss or zerg arsenal. Swarmhosts are played occasionally in pro play, mostly against mech but even in tricky strats vs protoss, void rays as well is occasionally used in pro play in all matchups, either in cheese or skytoss for example. Again Terran has lategame problems, so why not trying another revamp for the battlecruiser? This year's post season will be a good moment for that. It will be always better to try doing something for it than nothing.
2) The reaper : As said earlier, the reaper gets quickly useless after scout timing. Is it normal? I don't know, but it's another potential unit that could make for the lack of different openings / playstyles for terran. You can do very simple things for the reaper. 1) A mid/lategame upgrade? Or 2) Add the skill to allow reapers to be changed/recycled to marines when near a barrack (but not the other way around)?
3) Starport add-on mechanic : Think about it, every terran games except maybe mech play is fundamentally dependent on this mechanic. Banshee is an absurd investment early game and the raven is almost never built because of this exact reason. Banshee and raven are ok units, but they have very few opportunities to be incorporated in viable builds. Think about these simple changes for example. Either 1) Raven doesn't require techlab to be built anymore. Has no real issue since mass raven is not a thing anymore. Or 2) (the best one in my opinion) Medivac build time could be halfed (from 30s to 15s), but now requires techlab to be built. This would potentially make terran gameplan so much diverse, not frustrating and monodimensional.
4) The liberator : It's the only terran unit that is so badly designed it's good. Not much to say here, just much easier to use than to play against. Siege and forget unit. Frustrating to play against and, mostly it's an air unit that shouldn't counter everything on the ground. Its harass mechanic is dumb. It has to be redesigned.
Personal note : The Cyclone feels rather cost inefficient and gimmicky but in my opinion it can still find some use in some mech gameplan early-mid or even lategame. Maybe its micro potential could be looked at but in my opinion it's not a priority. Almost the same for the Thor, that is ok in TvT and TvZ. Could use some buff in TvP. Buffing it wouldn't make it broken in other MUs, like a buff in hp/mobility/dps against shield. Again not a priority compared to all above points.
The only thing I'm not a fan of watching or playing with is carriers. Otherwise, I like the state of the game.
I think it would be cool also to have a hive-tech upgrade, or maybe a morph that makes it so air units can't attack lurkers when they're burrowed. That would make lategame PvZ really interesting imho.
To go back to @ransomstarcraft original post of items 2 & 3 around detection and late game sustainability, I believe adding an upgrade for reactor on starport or upgrade for tech lab to basically become a reactor for tech lab units would help solve some of the issues. I also believe he has brought this up in a prior post in another thread.
My reasons: -Build a raven at any point like Zerg/Overseer and Protoss/Observer without having to really sacrifice mid game play (deciding to skip medivac production and sacrifice any kind of pushing power or harass) -Banshee production is often halted after building 2 in the early/mid-game. Banshee can be such a fun/cool unit to play if has the upgrades...namely speed upgrade. However, due to the investment and having to decide: a. do I produce this unit and sacrifice any medivac production, which therefore impacts my ability to push/harass (same predicament as building a raven) b. do I forego banshee production + upgrades at all because of the opportunity cost -Battlecruisers, while a neat unit, is likely the most underused unit in the game. Costs a crap ton and, again, having to decide whether to keep medivac production going vs build this sucker which impacts pushing and harassing.
If starport tech lab units were somehow able to be produced simultaneously with non-tech lab units, I believe this could also help provide more varied early game through late game options.
What's the problem with adding another Starport? Especially if it's lategame? I mean, TY or Innovation has no problem with lategame production. Protoss who are adding more robo or more Stargates too.
As a Terran, i think only the battlecruiser is the unit that needs to be reworked/upgraded. Relatively low DPS, speed issue, takes so much time to make, high cost, high cooldown. So useless right now, difficult to implement into your army, difficult to indentify what is the right amount. One or two is really cost ineficient (6 supply, high on tech tree and costs a fortune), but you can't mass them like carriers.. Other than that, the game is in really good shape.
The battlecruiser is in a perfect state, make it strong and terran lategame will become the same snorefest as P/Z lategame. I wouldn't be excited for the mass BC/turret/PF vs mass carrier/cannon/templar vs mass BL/Corruptor/Spore stalemates.
EPT
