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+2 vehicle weapons instead of ship weapons, a few more tanks, a handful of widow mines, more planetaries, thicker walls... a lucky nuke right on top of the banelings. if aLive did that, maybe... just maybe he would have won the privilege of getting rekt by brood lords instead of banelings.
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Dark was far better player in this series. This game was all ablut his stellar defence through whole game, and Alive not being able to damage his economy. That's it. If I don't damage protoss as Alive didn't Dark, I die from from Carriers.
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Here's an idea to change up Terran late game: what if Starports could produce Tech Reactors?
The cost could be 75/75, like the campaign, and it could take 50 seconds to build.
I have thought for awhile that the tech lab/reactor system works well on the barracks, but falls off in its functionality the higher up in the tech tree you go.
Adding in the Tech Reactor would have multiple effects on the Terran tech tree.
1. Strategic Diversity - It would allow the Terran late game to have a variety of options. In addition to the usual medivacs, liberators, and vikings that are seen from Terran, it would allow an occasional Raven, Banshee, or Battlecruiser to be added in for harass potential. None of these units are seeing much action right now, especially speed Banshees and Battlecruisers, and this would allow for a more reasonable transition to them.
2. Tech - It would keep late game Starport tech from interfering with production. Right now the situation is simple: a Starport is too important a building to generally keep a tech lab on it for too long. Swapping Starports around to get liberator range or other upgrades or building an extra starport just for the tech lab makes Terran production clunky and overly expensive.
3. Openers - It would add diversity to Terran openers, with the built in penalty that if the Starport is building the Tech Reactor, it is not building any air units. A 1-1-1 would be very different if, after the Starport had built its Tech Reactor, it was swapped to the Factory and 2 Siege Tanks were built at a time. There could be interesting openers that revolve around swapping the Tech Reactor to the Barracks and getting double Ghost with upgrades. So far in LOTV Terran has seen the least change in terms of build orders and lost most of the viability of bunker rushes and such, and this might open the possibility for some high risk/high reward builds.
4. General Production - The single starport could be used in ground mech to keep building tech reactors and making a large ground mech army. There is natural risk/reward built in to this system.
5. Sky Terran - We nearly saw some sort of Sky Terran from Maru before the last patch that nerfed the Raven. This might make some form of Sky Terran possible since it would radically change the way Terran air works.
Terran late game is in a stale place right now, and this might be an interesting way to shake it up.
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Balance and gameplay has never been better, I love this game.
The only thing I don't like in the game now is acid spray/puke on corruptors and BC teleport.
I think if they change those two things they will have an even better game. I think a reasonable buff is for them to be able to shoot while moving.
Also, I refuse to believe terran lategame is weak.
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On July 25 2018 08:59 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
Here's an idea to change up Terran late game: what if Starports could produce Tech Reactors?
The cost could be 75/75, like the campaign, and it could take 50 seconds to build.
I have thought for awhile that the tech lab/reactor system works well on the barracks, but falls off in its functionality the higher up in the tech tree you go.
Adding in the Tech Reactor would have multiple effects on the Terran tech tree.
1. Strategic Diversity - It would allow the Terran late game to have a variety of options. In addition to the usual medivacs, liberators, and vikings that are seen from Terran, it would allow an occasional Raven, Banshee, or Battlecruiser to be added in for harass potential. None of these units are seeing much action right now, especially speed Banshees and Battlecruisers, and this would allow for a more reasonable transition to them.
2. Tech - It would keep late game Starport tech from interfering with production. Right now the situation is simple: a Starport is too important a building to generally keep a tech lab on it for too long. Swapping Starports around to get liberator range or other upgrades or building an extra starport just for the tech lab makes Terran production clunky and overly expensive.
3. Openers - It would add diversity to Terran openers, with the built in penalty that if the Starport is building the Tech Reactor, it is not building any air units. A 1-1-1 would be very different if, after the Starport had built its Tech Reactor, it was swapped to the Factory and 2 Siege Tanks were built at a time. There could be interesting openers that revolve around swapping the Tech Reactor to the Barracks and getting double Ghost with upgrades. So far in LOTV Terran has seen the least change in terms of build orders and lost most of the viability of bunker rushes and such, and this might open the possibility for some high risk/high reward builds.
4. General Production - The single starport could be used in ground mech to keep building tech reactors and making a large ground mech army. There is natural risk/reward built in to this system.
5. Sky Terran - We nearly saw some sort of Sky Terran from Maru before the last patch that nerfed the Raven. This might make some form of Sky Terran possible since it would radically change the way Terran air works.
Terran late game is in a stale place right now, and this might be an interesting way to shake it up.
So I've actually thought about this for a long time. I don't like the idea of techreactors, because that seems too much of an advantage. I think it's time to eliminate tech labs and reactors and replace it with a single "Add-on".
Here's what the Add-on will do:
When producing 'reactorable' units, makes 2 at a time
When producing 'tech' units, makes 1 at a time
Can research tech upgrades without halting production.
How does that sound?
For cost, we could keep it at 50/50 or raise it to 75/75.
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Inno just got wrecked 3-0 by Showtime online, with Showtime opting for disruptor play and early stalker drops. Probably just a case of the EU player abusing cross-server lag, but reminds me of the blink stalker era when top korean terrans being stomped by a foreign toss was just another day at the office.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On July 29 2018 00:35 tskarzyn wrote:
Inno just got wrecked 3-0 by Showtime online, with Showtime opting for disruptor play and early stalker drops. Probably just a case of the EU player abusing cross-server lag, but reminds me of the blink stalker era when top korean terrans being stomped by a foreign toss was just another day at the office.
Showtime is in Korea
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Probably just a case of the EU player abusing cross-server lag
Pretty sure that Showtime is living/playing in Korea in preparation for GSL vs the World, so I doubt this. Inno looked incredibly tilted, mis-microed, and gg'd early multiple times. The same thing happened in his play against Stats. A single player doing poorly in a single day does not make a balance problem. If you look on Aligulac, Protoss winrates against Terran have actually been falling lately, after being fairly high before. In my opinion, it's the least entertaining match-up in the game, but saying it's at all similar to blink stalker era is pretty off base.
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On July 29 2018 00:45 Ishmael wrote:Pretty sure that Showtime is living/playing in Korea in preparation for GSL vs the World, so I doubt this. Inno looked incredibly tilted, mis-microed, and gg'd early multiple times. The same thing happened in his play against Stats. A single player doing poorly in a single day does not make a balance problem. If you look on Aligulac, Protoss winrates against Terran have actually been falling lately, after being fairly high before. In my opinion, it's the least entertaining match-up in the game, but saying it's at all similar to blink stalker era is pretty off base.
Fair point, he did look like he was on tilt. That said, it is easy to be tilted when players you are much stronger than mechanically have an equal chance of winning.
User was warned for this post.
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On July 29 2018 00:59 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2018 00:45 Ishmael wrote: Probably just a case of the EU player abusing cross-server lag Pretty sure that Showtime is living/playing in Korea in preparation for GSL vs the World, so I doubt this. Inno looked incredibly tilted, mis-microed, and gg'd early multiple times. The same thing happened in his play against Stats. A single player doing poorly in a single day does not make a balance problem. If you look on Aligulac, Protoss winrates against Terran have actually been falling lately, after being fairly high before. In my opinion, it's the least entertaining match-up in the game, but saying it's at all similar to blink stalker era is pretty off base. Fair point, he did look like he was on tilt. That said, it is easy to be tilted when players you are much stronger than mechanically have an equal chance of winning.
The reason he was on tilt was probably because he wasn't playing that well to begin with.
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On July 29 2018 00:45 Ishmael wrote:
A single player doing poorly in a single day does not make a balance problem.
it's amazing how often people need to be told this specifically about innovation. that's what happens when you take deification of korean players to insane levels
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On July 29 2018 00:19 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 08:59 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
Here's an idea to change up Terran late game: what if Starports could produce Tech Reactors?
The cost could be 75/75, like the campaign, and it could take 50 seconds to build.
I have thought for awhile that the tech lab/reactor system works well on the barracks, but falls off in its functionality the higher up in the tech tree you go.
Adding in the Tech Reactor would have multiple effects on the Terran tech tree.
1. Strategic Diversity - It would allow the Terran late game to have a variety of options. In addition to the usual medivacs, liberators, and vikings that are seen from Terran, it would allow an occasional Raven, Banshee, or Battlecruiser to be added in for harass potential. None of these units are seeing much action right now, especially speed Banshees and Battlecruisers, and this would allow for a more reasonable transition to them.
2. Tech - It would keep late game Starport tech from interfering with production. Right now the situation is simple: a Starport is too important a building to generally keep a tech lab on it for too long. Swapping Starports around to get liberator range or other upgrades or building an extra starport just for the tech lab makes Terran production clunky and overly expensive.
3. Openers - It would add diversity to Terran openers, with the built in penalty that if the Starport is building the Tech Reactor, it is not building any air units. A 1-1-1 would be very different if, after the Starport had built its Tech Reactor, it was swapped to the Factory and 2 Siege Tanks were built at a time. There could be interesting openers that revolve around swapping the Tech Reactor to the Barracks and getting double Ghost with upgrades. So far in LOTV Terran has seen the least change in terms of build orders and lost most of the viability of bunker rushes and such, and this might open the possibility for some high risk/high reward builds.
4. General Production - The single starport could be used in ground mech to keep building tech reactors and making a large ground mech army. There is natural risk/reward built in to this system.
5. Sky Terran - We nearly saw some sort of Sky Terran from Maru before the last patch that nerfed the Raven. This might make some form of Sky Terran possible since it would radically change the way Terran air works.
Terran late game is in a stale place right now, and this might be an interesting way to shake it up. So I've actually thought about this for a long time. I don't like the idea of techreactors, because that seems too much of an advantage. I think it's time to eliminate tech labs and reactors and replace it with a single "Add-on". Here's what the Add-on will do: When producing 'reactorable' units, makes 2 at a time
When producing 'tech' units, makes 1 at a time
Can research tech upgrades without halting production.How does that sound? For cost, we could keep it at 50/50 or raise it to 75/75.
I think something like that could work. The 75/75 is a much more significant penalty in the early game than the late game though, so that's a problem.
I really think that the problem with late game Terran is definitely more related to production than the units themselves. From the design decision that "all units should have a counter", Terran Factory and Starport units are some of the best designed units in the game. The problem is that Certain Protoss units, like Carriers, and some Zerg units, like Vipers, are unduly powerful for their cost. Vikings are no longer a counter to Carriers, and the power of Vipers with the ability to produce Corrupters en masse means Vikings are worthless there too.
It seems to me however you slice it, the late game tech lab/reactor system needs to be looked at.
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Vikings can counter Carriers, when u combine this with few Anti Armour Missiles from Ravens for exampe and few ghosts. Zerg cannot engage Carriers without casters, just as Zerg cannot engage mech army in lategame without infestors and vipers. Stop whining that u cannot mass one unit to counter all. It's 2018 for god sake.
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I hope that if blizzard does another big meta shaking patch after this years blizcon that they look into moving all the races away from mass air as the superior late game option. The ground game is just more interesting, I admit I was very whiney about 8 armor ultras back when they launched lotv but now tbh I miss them at least they lead to interesting and interactive gameplay where Terran could dart around and go dmg while trying to hold with libs at home. I miss it when carrier ht was not better than any other composition in the game. I'm glad they nerfed ravens but I hope they will look into moving the game away from mass air+spellcaster deathball and towards more ground focused late game armies. Not for ballance reasons, the game is really fair right now, but simply because mass air gameplay is so slow and boring. If races need there late game ground units buffed up to compensate for air nerfs I'm all for it but I honestly hope they get away from the build a big air deathball late game that is so prevelant in most matchups right now if the game goes late.
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The real balance update that needs to happen is the return of real sponsored teams with full-time coaches. Jin Air being the only true team left makes this Jin Air and everyone underneath.
User was warned for this post.
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On July 31 2018 06:33 hiroshOne wrote:
Vikings can counter Carriers, when u combine this with few Anti Armour Missiles from Ravens for exampe and few ghosts. Zerg cannot engage Carriers without casters, just as Zerg cannot engage mech army in lategame without infestors and vipers. Stop whining that u cannot mass one unit to counter all. It's 2018 for god sake.
maybe in your imagination. maybe in the unit tester. but in a real game, vikings do not counter carriers. not even aggressive turret pushing + mass viking can beat carriers. why?? because vikings shoot too slow, are incredible cost inefficient and terrible vs every other protoss unit except colossus. by the time you make enough vikings to contest the carriers, toss will have phoenix, stalkers, archons, cannons... and in that time, he will have expanded and powered up his economy even more. feedback >>> ravens. gumiho played vs carriers yesterday on stream. his words: "more marine, faster, win before protoss gets there"
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On July 31 2018 06:33 hiroshOne wrote:
Vikings can counter Carriers, when u combine this with few Anti Armour Missiles from Ravens for exampe and few ghosts. Zerg cannot engage Carriers without casters, just as Zerg cannot engage mech army in lategame without infestors and vipers. Stop whining that u cannot mass one unit to counter all. It's 2018 for god sake.
The comment "Vikings can counter Carriers" doesn't really mean anything if the Ravens and Ghosts end up costing 50% in gas of what the mass Viking cluster cost.
taken to the extreme... "SCVs counter every Protoss army. just mix in a few marines, marauders, and medivacs."
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On July 31 2018 06:33 hiroshOne wrote:
Vikings can counter Carriers, when u combine this with few Anti Armour Missiles from Ravens for exampe and few ghosts. Zerg cannot engage Carriers without casters, just as Zerg cannot engage mech army in lategame without infestors and vipers. Stop whining that u cannot mass one unit to counter all. It's 2018 for god sake.
I wonder what you're smoking.
Even in a vacuum, once you hit larger supply counts, carriers shred through vikings (which won't be helped by the anti armor missile since you'll get a huge overkill at this point anyway).
Now, add tempests for poke, VRs for close range decimation, and storm / archon*.
The only way to fight mass carriers at some point as a terran is to get mass liberators and pray the protoss politely A move into them.
*And we're talking purely about composition here, ignoring the traditional economy / map control / production advantage of the protoss in most late TvPs.
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Terran can just get 2 thors, shoot once with air explosive on stacked interceptors and they all die in a second and all the carriers become worthless. And they have a counter for high templars with ghosts...
Try zerg where HT have no counter, and you can't beat mass carriers without some vipers/infestors, than are hard countered by...HT.
User was warned for this post
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On August 01 2018 01:07 Tyrhanius wrote:
Terran can just get 2 thors, shoot once with air explosive on stacked interceptors and they all die in a second and all the carriers become worthless. And they have a counter for high templars with ghosts...
Try zerg where HT have no counter, and you can't beat mass carriers without some vipers/infestors, than are hard countered by...HT.
2 magical thors, from happy-land, produced from a big gumdrop house on lollipop lane! not enough minerals? oh, you big silly... these are magical thors, remember? the kind that can kill interceptors in a pinch! the only currency these thors understand is love! bring them 300 sprinkles of fairy dust, and 200 tresses of downy fluff from a Bavarian maiden's arsecheeks, and you'll never lose a TvP again. what other fairy tales do you enjoy? Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. has a nice happy ending.
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