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Hello everyone! It’s been an exciting time at WCS Valencia. Many different strategies have been utilized, all three races were well represented in the playoffs (for us on the balance team this is always heartwarming to see), new faces made it into the top 16, and there were plenty of hats for everyone. Congratulations to Serral for winning WCS Valencia, and hats off to Has for showing us the power of unorthodox play!
To start things off, we wanted to mention that the Team Liquid Map Contest 11 is going on now. The judging phase ends July 30, so make sure to check it out when the finalists are revealed. We are always excited to see all the new maps the community comes up with. Good luck to everyone participating!
In the tournament world, we’re not seeing anything immediately concerning. Interestingly, we’ve been getting some conflicting reports about ZvP. We’ve seen conversations in the community about late-game being Protoss-favored. However, reports from some pro players have said the opposite. Of course, it’s normal for players on any side to believe the others are too strong while also feeling like their own faction needs buffs. From our perspective, Protoss Carrier with High Templar support is very powerful, but if the game goes on for a long period of time, the Zerg does have options to pull them apart and punish that composition’s relative low mobility.
Additionally, many ZvP games are focused around mid-game Zerg pushes and how the Protoss player responds to these, which can be an issue if the majority of games are decided around this singular, pivotal moment.
ZvP also continues to have Stargate as the most common opener. This isn’t a completely unexpected development—Oracles and Phoenixes are some of the fastest scouts for early game Protoss, and they can also double back and defend their base in case of early attacks. Beyond the early build choices, ZvP does have very interesting back-and-forth dynamics during the mid-game and early late-game, so we’re not looking to make an immediate change here.
In TvZ, the previous Raven changes have had the desired effect of reducing the ability of mass Ravens to defeat Zerg armies on their own. It also has generated a number of reports that TvZ has now shifted into the Zerg’s favor late-game in head-on fights. Having an advantage at different points of the game can be fine, as that provides incentive to tech up in a matchup rather than investing deeply into lower tier units and fighting with those. But having it be unwinnable is certainly undesirable. We don’t think this matchup has developed to the point where a tactic can be said to be “unwinnable,” but we will be watching for these situations going forward.
TvP’s biggest change was the Marauder buff. This seems to have had the desired effect of making mid-game battles closer, which results in micro and positioning being very important for both sides in order to gain an advantage. We are still observing how the matchup is playing out in this regard. Since Terrans have a stronger mid-game, Protoss will have to adjust and discover areas where they can get away with more workers or squeeze in an upgrade here and there will take time. Ideally, both races would be able to pressure each other throughout the game through offensive action, although at different times.
For mirror matchups, we are not planning on making any short-term changes. PvP has historically been a matchup where your opening builds are extremely important, but lately, we’ve gotten reports that it’s difficult for games to go safely go beyond three bases. ZvZ has decent diversity between Zergling/Baneling openers, Mutalisk-focused games, and Roach-focused games. This matchup also often evolves in a healthy way into Lurker pushes or Hive tech. In TvT, the early game often centers around Cyclones, but the matchup can diverge into different playstyles, i.e., Bio vs Mech as the game goes on. We are keeping an eye on this matchup in particular to see how it develops.
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Nothing about shield batteries and immortals vs zerg. feelsbadman.
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In TvZ, the previous Raven changes have had the desired effect of reducing the ability of mass Ravens to defeat Zerg armies on their own. It also has generated a number of reports that TvZ has now shifted into the Zerg’s favor late-game in head-on fights. Having an advantage at different points of the game can be fine, as that provides incentive to tech up in a matchup rather than investing deeply into lower tier units and fighting with those. But having it be unwinnable is certainly undesirable.
I swear Blizzard doesn't even think the shit they write through. Being at a disadvantage at different points in the game also disincentivizes tech transitions and incentivizes staying on lower tier units to kill the opponent with the stronger late game.
The issue with ghost/raven was Zerg players hadn't figured out how to punish the Terran player (really just Maru) making that transition. (Too many Zerg players had gotten lazy and assumed that if they hit hive against Terran that they should autowin) Instead of letting players figure it out, they repeated the adept/phoenix balance fiasco and bowed to the balance whiners.
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627 Posts
The carrier and high templar combination is also too strong against Terran and Zerg in the late game. If the matchups are balanced, it can be left alone since Blizzcon is coming up. But after Blizzcon, this is something that should be addressed.
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I like the update overall and am happy that they do not commit to any changes yet 
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Yeah fair enough TvZ late game is zerg favored.
But... nothing about late game TvP being protoss favored?
At this point it's becoming a meme but also : nothing about mech still being horrible in TvP?
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On July 20 2018 03:13 JackONeill wrote:
Yeah fair enough TvZ late game is zerg favored.
But... nothing about late game TvP being protoss favored?
At this point it's becoming a meme but also : nothing about mech still being horrible in TvP?
Lategame TvP is winnable for terran, even though protoss may be considered at an advantage. But terran is clearly favoured in the midgame, so should be in a stronger position going into the lategame anyway.
TvZ is much much extreme. Once a good bunch of hive units are out, terrans (at the pro level) don't seem to be winning. Assuming they don't have a significant economic lead of course. But LBH is already strong in the midgame so it's not like terran can be expected to have such a lead going into the lategame.
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I hope they consider making the raven a pure support unit with something like turret / healing drone / PDD at some point, instead of giving it a missile that alternates between "everyone whines about it" and "wait, ravens can fire a missile?". Turn it into a unit that can't be massed, but having a small pack in the lategame can help with efficiency.. something terran considerably lacks currently.
Hell, the earliest iterations of the missile were much better ; it forced micro from the opponent while still fairly easy to negate the damage, but avoiding it meant retreating, making it a great area control tool in the same style as the tank or the lib. Opportunity costs, that stuff..
Balance wise, we're in a good place in terms of numbers, but T is still pigeon holed into the same stuff as always.
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On July 20 2018 03:31 Fango wrote:
Lategame TvP is winnable for terran, even though protoss may be considered at an advantage. But terran is clearly favoured in the midgame, so should be in a stronger position going into the lategame anyway.
Nonsense.
The marauder buff made every pro terran "allin" or perform extraordinarily agressive 2 bases builds versus protoss because late game is near-unwinnable.
Late game vs zerg is extremely hard but at least you can manoeuvrer against broodlords.
I'd actually argue that late game TvP is much more of a concern that late game TvZ.
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On July 20 2018 03:06 xelnaga_empire wrote:
The carrier and high templar combination is also too strong against Terran and Zerg in the late game. If the matchups are balanced, it can be left alone since Blizzcon is coming up. But after Blizzcon, this is something that should be addressed.
Carriers/High Templar are too strong against Terran? Are you sure you're not thinking Broodwar because I literally can't recall the last time I saw them in a professional match.
As they said, late game ZvP is Zerg favored according to the pros so if it is addressed, it should be with a late game Zerg nerf.
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On July 20 2018 03:37 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:31 Fango wrote:
Lategame TvP is winnable for terran, even though protoss may be considered at an advantage. But terran is clearly favoured in the midgame, so should be in a stronger position going into the lategame anyway. Nonsense. The marauder buff made every pro terran "allin" or perform extraordinarily agressive 2 bases builds versus protoss because late game is near-unwinnable. Late game vs zerg is extremely hard but at least you can manoeuvrer against broodlords. I'd actually argue that late game TvP is much more of a concern that late game TvZ.
Just because terrans are playing aggressive on 2-3 bases doesn't mean "lategame is unwinnable". It means being aggressive in the midgame is the most effective play. Pro players will do whatever strategy gives the best chance of success. That doesn't mean whatever they do is the only chance of success.
TvZ is a different story, pro terrans generally aren't winning it anymore. TvZ has been at 45-46% recently, so obviously it's not a severe imbalance, but a lot of games seem to be over if zerg gets established on hive tech.
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On July 20 2018 03:45 Fango wrote:
Just because terrans are playing aggressive on 2-3 bases doesn't mean "lategame is unwinnable". It means being aggressive in the midgame is the most effective play. Pro terrans will do whatever strategy gives the best chance of success.
"Being overly agressive on 2 bases is the best method to win with terran but that doesn't mean that later stages of the game give less chance of winning"
Actually it does.
And you've obviously not seen TvP late game with disruptor/colossi and constant zealots/DTs warping vs bio, or tempest/revelation vs anything else. Terran is pigeonholed into 2 bases bio allins because the race lacks the means to deal with numerous late game protoss units/protoss late game economy effectively.
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On July 20 2018 03:48 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:45 Fango wrote:
Just because terrans are playing aggressive on 2-3 bases doesn't mean "lategame is unwinnable". It means being aggressive in the midgame is the most effective play. Pro terrans will do whatever strategy gives the best chance of success. "Being overly agressive on 2 bases is the best method to win with terran but that doesn't mean that later stages of the game give less chance of winning" Actually it does. And you've obviously not seen TvP late game with disruptor/colossi and constant zealots/DTs warping vs bio, or tempest/revelation vs anything else. Terran is pigeonholed into 2 bases bio allins because the race lacks the means to deal with numerous late game protoss units/protoss late game economy effectively.
You completely missed the point. I never said what you've apparently quoted me to.
Being aggressive in the midgame gives terran the best chance at winning. That means lategame is less favourable for terran, not necessarily unwinnable. Pro players will do whatever strategy is best, that doesn't make it the only viable one.
If protoss has disruptors+collosi+tempest+revelation with constant zealot/DT harass, and terran just has bio, then they probably made much better in the previous 15 minutes.
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On July 20 2018 03:55 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:48 JackONeill wrote:On July 20 2018 03:45 Fango wrote:
Just because terrans are playing aggressive on 2-3 bases doesn't mean "lategame is unwinnable". It means being aggressive in the midgame is the most effective play. Pro terrans will do whatever strategy gives the best chance of success. "Being overly agressive on 2 bases is the best method to win with terran but that doesn't mean that later stages of the game give less chance of winning" Actually it does. And you've obviously not seen TvP late game with disruptor/colossi and constant zealots/DTs warping vs bio, or tempest/revelation vs anything else. Terran is pigeonholed into 2 bases bio allins because the race lacks the means to deal with numerous late game protoss units/protoss late game economy effectively. You completely missed the point. I never said what you've apparently quoted me to. Being aggressive in the midgame gives terran the best chance at winning. That means lategame is less favourable for terran, not necessarily unwinnable. Pro players will do whatever strategy is best, that doesn't make it the only viable one. If protoss has disruptors+collosi+tempest+revelation with constant zealot/DT harass, and terran just has bio, then they probably made much better in the previous 15 minutes.
Late game against Protoss is way harder to win than against Zerg if both players get there on even footing, and both match-ups were strongly affected by the raven nerf in the late game.
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the usual 2-dimensional response to player feedback. lots of talk about winrates. nothing about unit design, unit roles, unit synergy, micro potential, or anything that might make the game fun to play.
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REEEEEEEEE why doesn't Blizzard do with the game what I want?
User was warned for this post
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Dunno about the balance but the game is really fun now, great to watch as well. Personally I have trouble against P storm but that is just me being bad =P
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On July 20 2018 04:08 Ej_ wrote:
REEEEEEEEE why doesn't Blizzard do with the game what I want?
C O M M U N I T Y F E E D B A C K T H R E A D
a thread for the community, for the purpose of providing feedback
FEEDBACK: information about reactions to a product, performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.
COMMUNITY: can't spell community without an I
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i'm generally a big defender of dev teams from whiny players, and i don't believe in the old, boring, obnoxious "they're idiots! they don't know what they're doing!" cries every single time there's a community announcement, but... the statement they made here about ZvZ is pretty off base and concerns me
ZvZ has decent diversity between Zergling/Baneling openers, Mutalisk-focused games, and Roach-focused games. This matchup also often evolves in a healthy way into Lurker pushes or Hive tech. the fact that they put "ling bane openers" in the same category as "muta games" and "roach games" makes it sound like whoever wrote this doesn't play ZvZ or know how it works. a ling/bane opener isn't something you do instead of roaches or mutas, it's what you MUST do BEFORE roaches or mutas. if you don't build a baneling nest and your opponent does a competent baneling all-in then you die, period. skipping the bane nest is essentially a greedy economic cheese
more specifically, the meta heavily favors taking an extremely greedy third base while attacking with heavy ling/bane pressure on your opponent's side of the map. it's still possible to play games out by defending the attack and taking a later third, but it puts pressure on the defending player to make something happen before three hatch midgame macro kicks in and the player with an early third gets an advantage. and this is how it's been since the BEGINNING OF LOTV! the matchup is great in macro games, but macro games are not preferred in the meta and i rarely play them because of how aggressive everyone is
the matchup "often evolves in a healthy way" into later tech? does it, really? maybe in a pro meta where aggression is weak, maybe if both players like to macro and no one all-ins, but the reality on ladder is that ZvZ is a nonstop clusterfuck where the people who aren't doing 2 base ling/bane aggression are just early pooling you on 1 base because they want to skip the matchup. my conversations with other zerg players in-game back this up, too. in my perception ZvZ is more hated now than in heart of the swarm. even during the mass roach era it was mechanically satisfying for the better player and it was viable to open with a defensive 2 base roach play without automatically falling behind to a 3 base speedling play. 2 base roach falling out of the meta is another big reason the 3 hatch, 1.5 base mining, ling/bane aggression style is so overwhelming right now
please, blizzard - take another look at ZvZ, and don't just go by professional players who are more comfortable in greedy macro games. i don't mind defending baneling all-ins, it's part of the matchup, but it gets boring as fuck when 9/10 ZvZs barely make lair tech
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On July 20 2018 04:03 SHODAN wrote:
the usual 2-dimensional response to player feedback. lots of talk about winrates. nothing about unit design, unit roles, unit synergy, micro potential, or anything that might make the game fun to play.
Because manipulating numbers is easier than suggesting actual meaningful changes. Most people are looking for the "easy" way, both because well, it's easy, and because Blizz has shown that's mostly what they're working with anyway when doing changes
I've tried with some different raven designs but owell..
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
