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On May 20 2007 18:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
It helps develop big money communities, but also narrows the chance of people going to low money communities. At least thats what i feel it would happen if the game becomes slo (not in terms of speed, but in terms of what you need to do in the game).
What i like in bw is that i always have something more to do in a game. Even if im just scouting, i can drone harras, produce go back, build, make a drop etc. With this little things dissapearing i think imma end up watching fights after pressing 1a2a.
I think you'll find yourself spending alot of time trying to exploit the cliffs to your advantage rather then just watching your units fight. I wonder when they'll start releasing proper gameplay videos showing the inhouse pros duking it out against eachother.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 20 2007 18:22 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 18:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
It helps develop big money communities, but also narrows the chance of people going to low money communities. At least thats what i feel it would happen if the game becomes slo (not in terms of speed, but in terms of what you need to do in the game).
What i like in bw is that i always have something more to do in a game. Even if im just scouting, i can drone harras, produce go back, build, make a drop etc. With this little things dissapearing i think imma end up watching fights after pressing 1a2a. I think you'll find yourself spending alot of time trying to exploit the cliffs to your advantage rather then just watching your units fight. I wonder when they'll start releasing proper gameplay videos showing the inhouse pros duking it out against eachother.
You can exploit those while macroing :D!!
I'm just worried it will feel slow compared to SC really.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On May 20 2007 18:22 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 18:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
It helps develop big money communities, but also narrows the chance of people going to low money communities. At least thats what i feel it would happen if the game becomes slo (not in terms of speed, but in terms of what you need to do in the game).
What i like in bw is that i always have something more to do in a game. Even if im just scouting, i can drone harras, produce go back, build, make a drop etc. With this little things dissapearing i think imma end up watching fights after pressing 1a2a. I think you'll find yourself spending alot of time trying to exploit the cliffs to your advantage rather then just watching your units fight. I wonder when they'll start releasing proper gameplay videos showing the inhouse pros duking it out against eachother.
Well easy macro kills the prupose of distracting your enemy to gain macro advantage. Since i can just click 3r4v (making up hotkeys here) while still watching my units. If i wanted to do this in starcraft1 i would have hotkeys left for my units. As always im just speculating. Maybe when they release the final game they make up to this things with other things regarding macro and micro 
I trust Blizzard.
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Australia1848 Posts
When you play an RTS game you should Always have somehing that needs doing. If you can take your hands of the keyboard and mouse for more than a couple of seconds without falling behind then the game is gonna be a really crappy competative game.
If you can select you entire amry in 1 button and tell them to attack move on the enemy, then click 3 more buttons have have every single one of your production buildings creating more units wheres the skill in that? I know everyones gonna say 'wahh you need to be microing your men, not just attack moving' However in a lot of situations, attack move is gonna be fine and ppl are gonna be spending more time watching the battles than participatin in them. Skill will become more about exploiting maps and race balance than actual RTS abilities.
As for selecting buildings however, I know that having to click 20 gateways individually is just not feesable in this day and age. Casual gamers would have a fit. So you should be able to select em all, but to build stuff from em youd have to tab through. tab z tab z tab z etc.
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I personally am a micro man, I'm better at it and I find it more fun that macro, but macro, including unit building is important, in distracting, as mentioned previously and many other things. Also there are many macro players who like RTS games but cannot micro well. Just because macro isn't as fun doesn't mean its not a valid way to play the game.
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This reminds me of playing with hacks. Imagine having 10 hatcheries, clicking one larva and selecting all of them, hitting z to build 60 lings, then sending all 60 lings at once. Baffling.
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If there is no limit, thats totally messed up, it makes soooo many things so much easier.
All you have to do is line up your units nicely and attack-move for a perfect flank, especially with zerg, its way too easy. Even pros will only use 11-12 mutas to harrass when they have more than that.
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I don't understand why the gameplay has to be complicated just because it requires higher APM, like that's a good thing in and of itself.
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as I said before, I don't care about that no limit. I think that's actually very helpful. And above all that, if you want to win games, you CAN'T just select all and attack, unless the game is already over anyway!
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I kind of agree with the unlimited.
It lets you use your hotkeys for unit producing structures, not waste them all on your team.
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This is another reason why Sc2 will most likely suck ass.
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I don't think the spam build will be used a lot early in the game. You still have to make unit selection for your army. Spam builds more likely benefits BGH games. I think with the focus more on micro and given the new units, there most likely be more fights on the frontline with little fights/harasses at the edges of base(esp worker line) happening at the same time.
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MURICA15980 Posts
I think everybody needs to be emphasizing this in order for it to become reality, but I feel they should allow players to customize their hotkeys like in counterstrike. There are potential "scripting" problems with this, but yeah... it'll be a positive feature.
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I dont mind no selection cap at all. Ive always known it was pretty stupid, but not some of the thoughts behind it. Like keying different units to different keys for quick recall, this lets you effectively set up movement for units that have different move speeds. I mean most high level Zergs now just control most of their army with almost no hotkeys, its literally uneffective to key your weaker/more plentiful units and have them die and then have to do it again. Quicker to just set them up on the map and macro control them as best you can.
But the real reason why I find this worry to be unfounded is that we have no idea what the aim of SC2 will be at all. It could very easily be less about massing like the first, especially given the 3D nature of the game. I mean aside from the 50 ling stuff I havent seen anything that really shows that the game is about big bases and huge armies. Each of those lings could be 1-2 supply, who knows.
WC3 had the swiss army knife style for all units, everything had a secondary mode or a plethora of spells or upgrades. I wouldnt really love if SC2 is like that, but most of the new units seem to have some amount of stuff in that vein. It could very easily be a lot more small scale than some of you are envisioning.
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On May 20 2007 18:22 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 18:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
It helps develop big money communities, but also narrows the chance of people going to low money communities. At least thats what i feel it would happen if the game becomes slo (not in terms of speed, but in terms of what you need to do in the game).
What i like in bw is that i always have something more to do in a game. Even if im just scouting, i can drone harras, produce go back, build, make a drop etc. With this little things dissapearing i think imma end up watching fights after pressing 1a2a. I think you'll find yourself spending alot of time trying to exploit the cliffs to your advantage rather then just watching your units fight. I wonder when they'll start releasing proper gameplay videos showing the inhouse pros duking it out against eachother.
The problem with what your are saying is that these "limitations" are a *big* reason why sc is way more popular then any other rts competetively. It is because it is hard and takes speed. Part of the strategy is the fact that the player has to make the decision...."Will it be more effective for me to go back to my base and produce guys, or would I do more damage by micro managing the armies, OR a balance between the two?" And they have to decide all of this in a split second. The kind of game you are talking about leads to controlling your army 90% of the time which would be very similar to War3.
It is pretty boring watching both players micro very well while knowing that neither are suffering the slightest macro advantage while doing it. The other issue is....if there is enough micro to keep people playing at a high pace despite macro being more automated.....seeing too many abilities go off at once really clutters up the screen and makes it very hard to follow for observers.
If blizzard really wants to keep starcraft a popular and competitive game, they should realize what has made it so popular in the first place are the very UI limitations that casual gamers wants to get rid of.
:o
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On May 20 2007 20:21 red.venom wrote:
I dont mind no selection cap at all. Ive always known it was pretty stupid, but not some of the thoughts behind it. Like keying different units to different keys for quick recall, this lets you effectively set up movement for units that have different move speeds. I mean most high level Zergs now just control most of their army with almost no hotkeys, its literally uneffective to key your weaker/more plentiful units and have them die and then have to do it again. Quicker to just set them up on the map and macro control them as best you can.
But the real reason why I find this worry to be unfounded is that we have no idea what the aim of SC2 will be at all. It could very easily be less about massing like the first, especially given the 3D nature of the game. I mean aside from the 50 ling stuff I havent seen anything that really shows that the game is about big bases and huge armies. Each of those lings could be 1-2 supply, who knows.
WC3 had the swiss army knife style for all units, everything had a secondary mode or a plethora of spells or upgrades. I wouldnt really love if SC2 is like that, but most of the new units seem to have some amount of stuff in that vein. It could very easily be a lot more small scale than some of you are envisioning.
yea, and thats something i am kind of worried about. As I mentioned above, too many abilities going off at once combined with the fact that people won't have to spend as much time microing is REALLY bad for people observing the game. Plus, when you get into smaller unit counts, splitting your army is rarely seen;x
I actually thought war3 was by far the 2nd best RTS out there....but I am just critical of it when comparing it to SC. I think many of the things I mentioned are reasons why War3 never gained as much popularity in the competitive e-sports community.
It does seem to me that Blizzard is making an honest effort to keep SC2 competitive though, which is more then we could ever ask for:D
<3
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You can quite clearly see the selection window in the video. In the video the largest selection made was 16 units (2 rows of 8 on the hud).
It looks to me like their MAY be enough room on the hud for 1 more row of 8.. but based on the centering of the unit frames i suspect that 16 is the limit. if its not then 24 is definetly the limit.
__________
[][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][] <- when he selects the units ingame you see the display like this. 2x 8 units
----------------- <- it 'almost' looks like their is room for 1 more row (24 units in total) but i doubt it.
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Actually... I change my mind. 24 units for sure.
Check this video at time index 7:25
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6287387257388853221
16 units are selected, but there is room for 1 more row. Notice how even the shape of the hud has a few pixels delete to allow the 3rd row to fix snugly in the frame?
24 units for sure. :D
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Its still not done the HUD didnt look fininished.
but its probably not gonna change much, just newbs will have an easier time grouping their men.
but to be able to properly control your men youll still need to split them up into groups
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Also keep in mind that any UI limitation will really harm the UMS games which I think is atleast 50% of Starcrafts popularity.
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EPT
