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On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place.
Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro.
What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC.
Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game.
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On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game.
I should point out that unlimited selection is purely a macro concept. 1a2a3a is micro.
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On May 20 2007 17:10 XG3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game. I should point out that unlimited selection is purely a macro concept. 1a2a3a is micro.
?
I thought the unlimited selection applied to units only. I only brought up the concept of limiting building hotkeys because it seems everyone looks at it in only two ways: all buildings to one hotkey or one building per hotkey.
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On May 20 2007 17:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 17:10 XG3 wrote:On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game. I should point out that unlimited selection is purely a macro concept. 1a2a3a is micro. ? I thought the unlimited selection applied to units only. I only brought up the concept of limiting building hotkeys because it seems everyone looks at it in only two ways: all buildings to one hotkey or one building per hotkey.
I believe he's trying to say that unlimited selection will mostly be used to move huge armies around the map.
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On May 20 2007 17:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 17:10 XG3 wrote:On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game. I should point out that unlimited selection is purely a macro concept. 1a2a3a is micro. ? I thought the unlimited selection applied to units only. I only brought up the concept of limiting building hotkeys because it seems everyone looks at it in only two ways: all buildings to one hotkey or one building per hotkey.
Ok I'm confused...what are we talking about? Do we know what the SC2 building mechanics will be yet?
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Being a slow player who suffers from some rsi (I also play guitar/do a lot of work on the computer), I'm definitely behind the interface becoming as streamlined as possible. I just prefer winning games through more intelligent strategies and plays rather than my ability to multi-task mundane jobs.
I know this isn't the general feeling of the TL community, as you like the skill of doing these things (shown by progamers especially). But even looking at it from your point of view, I think it will be an improvement. All of these new teleporting/burrowing units have the potential to cause continuous harassment- so a player with good apm/multi-tasking could probably keep their opponent under constant pressure in several areas- even more so then if they had the SC1 macro/interface requirements. And as others have said, to macro/micro at the top level, you won't want to do select all. Of course it does make it easier to just send 100's of zealots/lings at your opponent, but fast players can do that in SC anyway, and it hasn't proved imbalancing as far as I can see.
Also, looking at the maps it seems difficul to just throw 100 zerglings at someone- there are cliffs and terrain everywhere....it seems like air/jump pack units will become way more important.
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On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game.
I don't think the ability to select more then one building at a time is what made WC3 a micro game, in most WC3 games you won't see players build more then one or two unit production buildings in the first place so the limitation would be meaningless.
What made WC3 a micro game is that the game focused heavily on heroes and creeping. Also the fact that any loss unit would be a massive resource loss didn't help. Any skirmish between two forces in WC3 was about who could cause the largest economical losses on the other force as possible, since both forces earned about as much gold (send 5 peons into the gold mine and you're set for the game) unless they expanded (which was costly and therefor dangerous to pull off).
Also almost every unit in WC3 had some kind of special ability activated with hotkeys, often several. While some of them were on autocast most wern't. Effective use of dispell for example often was the difference between clear victory and humilating defeat.
In SC2 I think economy will play a much larger role then in WC3 since minerals are alot more abundant then gold mines and more complex to gather then "send 5 workers and be done with it". The macro in the game should focus more on economy managemement and base design then tabbing between buildings.
I don't see how the UI limitations make the game any more strategic then it would otherwise be.
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On May 20 2007 17:17 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2007 17:08 mahnini wrote:On May 20 2007 16:57 Zironic wrote:
I suppose I've made myself clear by now, personally I think SC2 should be about pure skill and not getting past UI limitations by having a high APM.
Skill should be more about effective use of the units then selecting different buildings fast in order to build them in the first place. Like mentioned before SC2 should be like BW: 50% micro 50% macro. What you are describing is basically WC3, strong focus on micro not so much on macro, not saying that's a bad thing, but that is definitely not SC. Also, how is being able to effectively use units different from being able to produce them? You still need physical speed, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, etc. Maybe for the sake of compromise, we would limit the amount of buildings you are able to hotkey to like 2 or 3, still I'd rather much keep it the way it is, a real time strategy game. In SC2 I think economy will play a much larger role then in WC3 since minerals are alot more abundant then gold mines and more complex to gather then "send 5 workers and be done with it". The macro in the game should focus more on economy managemement and base design then tabbing between buildings. I don't see how the UI limitations make the game any more strategic then it would otherwise be.
I think the reason that many players desire a 50/50 split between micro and unit production is because it requires multi-tasking which is a very important aspect in a RTS. Further, it adds a sense of urgency that at any moment your macro could fall behind your opponents, rather than giving a simple two stroke ability to build units. Speed, multitasking, and manual dexterity has become an integral part of the game, you can't simply phase it out because it takes "too much time" to get used to it.
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Sweden33723 Posts
It doesn't make it more strategic, it just makes it less challenging.
Fine, select 200 units at once, this barely bothers me, I think I can get used to it EASILY.
Selecting 50 gateways and pressing z...
Thanks for removing half the game.. I'm exaggerating of course, but it's a skill I enjoy 
That certain part of the game where you have to micro AND macro AND expand all at once, it's so hectic everything is happening now now now now now.
I dont want this to disappear because I can click 2 keys and I dont have to produce anymore-.-
Late game it's much larger scale, so you just do your production in HUGE waves (ie you go over an area of 30 gates and queue a zealot per gate or something) OR much smaller so you don't need it. Meh.
I'm gonna either wait until I see a first person vod of a good player playing with all this stuff or until I try the game myself before I make a final decision as to wether it will ruin the game or not.
But yeah, mass unit select - ok, you've convinced me it wont be so bad.
Mass building select - that's gonna take some time to convince me if ever. I think I need proof of it not seriously detracting from the game.
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I think the macro should shift focus more on base building and expansion then unit construction, isn't the selecting 50 gateways one by one really just a relic from a time when they couldn't program the game to build from more then one at once?
From what I've seen it seems like Blizzard have decided they want alot larger battles in SC2 then what was seen in SC1. In the gameplay discussion (or was it artstyle) they've mentioned the game supporting up to 300 units at once on the screen (this might mean that you can have more in total) Do you really want to manually build 300 marines with a minimum of 2 clicks for each? That would be 3 minutes of pure clicking with an apm of 100 and would probably shift the focus to 90% macro and 10% micro.
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personally, i think pressing 50 gateways individually is quite annoying. for less than 8 gates its really only saving a second or two.
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On May 20 2007 17:41 Ghin wrote:
personally, i think pressing 50 gateways individually is quite annoying. for less than 8 gates its really only saving a second or two.
But the skill, pressing 1z2z3z is obviously the height of human inguinity and cleverness.
(Note that this is a joke)
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Sweden33723 Posts
At least have a limit.. No fun if you can build from every single gateway you own at once =[
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It's not like by adding the ability to select many units at the same time you no longer can do the individual selecting you so enjoy doing. I know it sucks that you spent so much time practicing to get up to your 200 APM or whatever, and now you THINK SC2 will let people get by with less. But I really don't think that's the case. Instead of spending more actions on menial tasks like 1a2a3a4a5a6a or whatever, it can be spent on microing the units better, etc. Someone with 200 APM on SC1 will still be able to make use of it in SC2 (although it'll take a while to rebuild up your APM since its a new game and all).
I really think the majority of complainers here have a problem with the fact that they've been practicing building up their speed for many years and now some of the stuff they've built up speed on MIGHT be simplified in the final version. It's similar to WC2 players complaining about the easiness of selecting multiple units in SC or WC3. But no one cares about the WC2 players, right?
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On May 20 2007 17:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:
At least have a limit.. No fun if you can build from every single gateway you own at once =[
I think what is fun varies alot from person to person, finding a good arbitiary limit might be really hard especially since the races build things so differently. Would you then need different limits based on the different races (considering that protoss generally need alot less units then zerg)?
I think the best long term solution is to not impose any arbitiary limits and balance micro vs macro some other way that isn't imposed by the UI.
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On May 20 2007 17:50 EscPlan9 wrote:
It's not like by adding the ability to select many units at the same time you no longer can do the individual selecting you so enjoy doing. I know it sucks that you spent so much time practicing to get up to your 200 APM or whatever, and now you THINK SC2 will let people get by with less. But I really don't think that's the case. Instead of spending more actions on menial tasks like 1a2a3a4a5a6a or whatever, it can be spent on microing the units better, etc. Someone with 200 APM on SC1 will still be able to make use of it in SC2 (although it'll take a while to rebuild up your APM since its a new game and all).
I really think the majority of complainers here have a problem with the fact that they've been practicing building up their speed for many years and now some of the stuff they've built up speed on MIGHT be simplified in the final version. It's similar to WC2 players complaining about the easiness of selecting multiple units in SC or WC3. But no one cares about the WC2 players, right?
I actually only have 110 or so apm 120 on a good day. The more I think about it the less I hate unlimited control groups, it'll allow newer players easily control units but not with the same expertise and skill of better players. I would also not mind multiple building hotkeys, so long as it is limited to a low number. So as not to take the need to effectively multitask away from the game. Another option to improve macro without UI blocks is lower hp or raising attack damage but doing so too much would eliminate the need for micro because by the time you micro one unit the rest will be dead and in that case it would be better to just macro.
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On May 20 2007 15:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:
unit selection cap is the worst thing to be complaining about, honestly
blizzard isn't just catering to the whim of players that want to make this game as hard as possible on the player with stupid interface limitations. they also have to cater to the casual player, who will quite correctly be pretty pissed if a 2008 game still has a 1998 unit selection cap.
sure, it brings *something* to competitive play, but really, is it that big a difference? does it really matter that much? could you beat bisu zvp if you had unlimited unit selection cap?
no you would not be able to beat bisu zvp. just because having unlimited unit selection doesn't close a gap that large doesnt mean that it doesnt close any gaps at all. all of these interface limitations add to the depth of the game. it makes the game harder, it varies skill more. theres no way you can argue that it doesnt take away skill to be able to move your entire army with one click of the mouse.
i dont know...i think it'll make sc less spectacular as a spectator game if all of these interface limitations were gone. i know the first time i watched pros, what impressed me most was their speed. their ability to be everywhere at once on the map, manually building from every production building, handling their huge armies with ease. with these limitations gone, these things just aren't as impressive anymore. a casual gamer watching wont be impressed. they won't understand everything going on, the strategy, builds, timing, etc. but what a casual gamer can easily comprehend is the speed that someone is playing at. i dont think it'll kill the game, but it'd be less fun to watch and some of the skill depth would be gone.
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Arguably they could add a mod to starcraft 2 that we can just call Starcraft 3D that would be old plain starcraft with prettier gfx and then we we nooblets could have Starcraft 2 for ourselves 
I think we'll find alot of other things to be impressed about when it comes to SC2 pros then unit building. If you look at the new units unveiled it seems like they're making unit movement and positioning extremly important.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 20 2007 17:50 EscPlan9 wrote:
It's not like by adding the ability to select many units at the same time you no longer can do the individual selecting you so enjoy doing. I know it sucks that you spent so much time practicing to get up to your 200 APM or whatever, and now you THINK SC2 will let people get by with less. But I really don't think that's the case. Instead of spending more actions on menial tasks like 1a2a3a4a5a6a or whatever, it can be spent on microing the units better, etc. Someone with 200 APM on SC1 will still be able to make use of it in SC2 (although it'll take a while to rebuild up your APM since its a new game and all).
I really think the majority of complainers here have a problem with the fact that they've been practicing building up their speed for many years and now some of the stuff they've built up speed on MIGHT be simplified in the final version. It's similar to WC2 players complaining about the easiness of selecting multiple units in SC or WC3. But no one cares about the WC2 players, right?
I know this is partially true ^^
But I still think I have at least a somewhat rational reason for not wanting to have unlimited BUILDING selection. I'm sure if I see it implemented and it works fine I'd change my mind tho, just think it might be bad.
And also as your_killer said, I was one of those players who when I first saw progamer vods was super impressed with how fast the players were so I guess I'm hoping this wll remain in SC2.
And I'll miss the stages of the game where you are hectically trying to micro and macro at the same time, but yeah, we'll see what happens.
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is awesome32282 Posts
It helps develop big money communities, but also narrows the chance of people going to low money communities. At least thats what i feel it would happen if the game becomes slo (not in terms of speed, but in terms of what you need to do in the game).
What i like in bw is that i always have something more to do in a game. Even if im just scouting, i can drone harras, produce go back, build, make a drop etc. With this little things dissapearing i think imma end up watching fights after pressing 1a2a.
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EPT
