EPTProtoss economy is still broken. And additional air fleet nerfs are needed, both for the carrier and corruptor.
Community Feedback Update - May 8 - Page 4
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DubiousC2
129 Posts
Protoss economy is still broken. And additional air fleet nerfs are needed, both for the carrier and corruptor. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
I'd have preferred the small Liberator AtG buff proposed earlier (+2 to +5 AtG damage) instead of this. As it stands this might fix TvP but it'll just further marginalize Ultralisks in TvZ. Terrans will still transition to Ghost/Raven, they'll just make more Ghosts and fewer Ravens like Lexender said, and Ultralisks won't be used outside of narrow timings to close out an advantage. Normally that wouldn't be terrible, since Ultralisks are the epitome of a dumb, faceroll unit, but this isn't actually introducing any new strategies or compositions into the game, just cementing old ones. If they revert anything, it should be the Cyclone, not the Marauder. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On May 09 2018 08:23 Charoisaur wrote: How about you base your claims on pro games and not on your personal ladder matches? Ultras are played all the time currently and I'm sure we'll see them regularly even after the patch. Yeah no. Pro games are not the only thing people (including Blizz) should be looking at. Ultras suck in most leagues, and even in higher leagues I don't see them winning games as often as they delay the inevitable or act as a small stepping stone to reach BL/whatever and this change makes them a worse option in both cases. On top of the Raven Auto Turret buff it's ridiculous. The majority of the community decided ages ago that Auto Turrets are bad for the game, it's sad to see the Raven being forced in this direction. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 09 2018 08:40 blunderfulguy wrote: Yeah no. Pro games are not the only thing people (including Blizz) should be looking at. They aren't, but ideas based around balance such as "X is imba/underpowered" should be based around nothing but high level games. And I'd be willing to bet ultras get stronger the lower down the ladder anyway. I doubt most plat leaguers have gosu ghost micro. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
Marauders vs superior upgraded protoss (unavoidable if not 2-base all-ining) was a joke. Marauder vs guardian shield was a joke too. (guardian was already so good vs marines, it didn't need more) When the two combined, it was no more a joke but a one-sided slaughter :/ It was somewhat compensated with the old lib(+mine combo), but since mine+lib nerf the terran midgame was way way too weak vs toss. People argued against MMM "boring" play, but any Polt vs Toss was 100 times better than any mass lib play vs toss (the best probably being the TY vs Patience matchs, but they are the rare exception, long gone ) On May 09 2018 07:44 Solar424 wrote: Terran gets 3 buffs and 1 nerf and still find a way to wine XD Never change, Terran players, because Blizzard will always listen to you no matter what. Yep, that's why we got 6 months of unplyable TvP (tbh it was kinda 40% win-able for top korean T thanks 100% to all-ins and tricks) Most terrans will be happy. Only avilo-style mechers will whine (marauders vs modern 2xarmory mech was a total joke, too. That's why many played some rine-tank into double starport libs play versus mech ). That's what they always do. | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
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Raven_Ax
France3 Posts
In my opinion, 3 range cast was too much, but 1 range was also too few. So 2 should be the good value. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On May 09 2018 03:11 Charoisaur wrote: Worthless HP change like the Hydra or Adept hp changes were  the thing is that those changes dramatically changed how many shots it took to kill them and I think + hp is more impactfull on a ground unit because of all the things that trade with ground units before they close and do dmg, mines, tanks, storms, ect. the viking on the other hand has enough range that getting shots off is not its problem. The viking just has alot of ineherent weeknesses when it comes to unit interactions with zerg and + 10 hp does not address them. I think the bigest drawback is that when zerg attacks all there army goes forward such that there hydras support there air units, but when terran attacks their bio wants to go backward and kite so it does not get melted by banes but the vikings need to stand there ground to get shots off on thier currpoters, during this time hydras are able to do tons of dmg to the vikings and really snowball the air fight. Odly I think alot of the weekness of the viking in bio compositions comes down to the fact that marines dont have the same impact on the air fight as hydras do. In mech vs zerg I think the main problem with the viking is that its just terrible against vipers, its so bad that if terran can avoid building any of them they will. overall though Im excited about the change. Im ok with terran late game not being better than zerg and protoss provided that terran has the tools to put on a ton of pressure in the midgame. bio is also such a snowbally composition that even moderat buffs to its core can have a huge impact so im excited to see what this will do to tvp. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On May 09 2018 06:04 hiroshOne wrote: Well...Once droperlords or even possibility of early droperlord kept Protoss honest in the same way. But guess what XD yeah but its less critical for zerg to keep protoss honest in the early stages of the game because zerg can always punish a player for being passive and greedy in the early game by being even more passive and even greedier Unfortunately for Terran this kind of play vs protoss is no go because of the extreme strength of late game protoss armies with large upgrade leads. If Terran does not shut down protoss fast, they wont be able to vs a competent opponent.. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8218 Posts
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Woosixion
116 Posts
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Being on the internet, every post must be negative somehow. So here goes. Way better than dayvie. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16032 Posts
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
How does this analogy relate? Blizzard essentially gave Terran three negligible buffs for trading one major late-game support unit; it is not about quantity it is about quality. Terran was already crippled by late game Protoss (Tempest/Storm/Carrier) and Zerg (Broodlord/Viper/Corruptor). Some would argue Marauder is a large buff, but sorry, that unit does not shoot up will only increase all-ins. The HP buff is nothing compared to storm, parasitic bomb, mass interceptors etc. Think to yourself: "Gee, my army has a wopping 200 HP more with 20 Vikings - I'm sure that is going to really make a difference with a maxed out Zerg and Protoss with spell casters." I don't understand Blizzards logic in having Terran scale with other races (like Protoss) when, in the late game, they ultimately have nothing of value to fight with a maxed out army. I could have 10k/10k in the bank but if I have far inferior units to keep headbutting against my opponent, then what is the point. Mark my words, Blizzard not only single handedly destroyed an already bad Terran late game, but nullified any chance for viable mech while simultaneously encouraging Terran 2-base all-ins. If stats start turning in Terrans favor it will not be because of healthy balance; it will be Terrans running to end the game before 10 minutes because they don't have any options after that. | ||
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engesser1
264 Posts
On May 09 2018 12:07 SirPinky wrote: This balance patch reminds me when I give my kids chores to do and they say "Dad, look I did ten chores in a half hour!" Then I have to remind them it is not about quantity it is about quality. How does this analogy relate? Blizzard essentially gave Terran three negligible buffs for trading one major late-game support unit; it is not about quantity it is about quality. Terran was already crippled by late game Protoss (Tempest/Storm/Carrier) and Zerg (Broodlord/Viper/Corruptor). Some would argue Marauder is a large buff, but sorry, that unit does not shoot up will only increase all-ins. The HP buff is nothing compared to storm, parasitic bomb, mass interceptors etc. Think to yourself: "Gee, my army has a wopping 200 HP more with 20 Vikings - I'm sure that is going to really make a difference with a maxed out Zerg and Protoss with spell casters." I don't understand Blizzards logic in having Terran scale with other races (like Protoss) when, in the late game, they ultimately have nothing of value to fight with a maxed out army. I could have 10k/10k in the bank but if I have far inferior units to keep headbutting against my opponent, then what is the point. Mark my words, Blizzard not only single handedly destroyed an already bad Terran late game, but nullified any chance for viable mech while simultaneously encouraging Terran 2-base all-ins. If stats start turning in Terrans favor it will not be because of healthy balance; it will be Terrans running to end the game before 10 minutes because they don't have any options after that. So what is your suggestions and how to make it work? I'm pretty sure we talking about the major patch (a global thing). But how it could be possible to do when we live with patch 4.0 only for 6 month? In the current situation we should accept anything from Blizzard. Any case, they listened us. They said something. This is not a deaf wall between them and players. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On May 09 2018 12:17 engesser1 wrote: So what is your suggestions and how to make it work? I'm pretty sure we talking about the major patch (a global thing). But how it could be possible to do when we live with patch 4.0 only for 6 month? In the current situation we should accept anything from Blizzard. Any case, they listened us. They said something. This is not a deaf wall between them and players. My logic may be oversimplifying things but I think it is pretty obvious - look at the Battlecruiser. Why is the BC the most expensive unit in the game which takes the longest to build (significantly longer than the Tempest) yet is one of the worst units in the game? It is dead in TvT because of interference matrix; it is dead in TvP because of Tempest easily kiting; it is dead in TvZ because of mass corruptor/viper(abduct) or mass hydra. Change something about the BC to make it better: Such as faster build time, less money, longer range, better speed...SOMETHING! They were on the right track with Tactical Jump, it was a nice novelty, but ultimately it did not make the unit playable against the many counter options of each race. Am I saying make the BC the strongest unit in the game which has little counter? No of course not...but not some pitiful unit that has zero place in any matchup. The irony here is Terran's flagship unit where you see the image everywhere in the game for marketing etc...is, indeed, one of the worst. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
Hey! Hard to pinpoint one thing, there's several build orders for Protoss which are all viable, and have very different possibilities - Twilight = Aggressive Blink, Defensive blink (3 base), Nothing to do with blink but a fake out and tech, DT. Robo = Collosus 2 base, Collosus 3 base, Immortal, Warp prism aggression, Disruptor Drops. Stargate = Oracle 1x into phoenix, 2x oracle, 3x oracle + They are all good openings, and can lead to very quick and efficient victories, anyone of them can change too based on what they're seeing, if a Protoss sees the Terran is going 3 cc (probe scout initially into the adept across the map) Lets say he was going robo initially into 3 base was his plan in mind, he can then very quickly transition into a warp prism opening and put on pressure. I feel there's a huge amount of lenience in Protoss builds that allow them to go from being "hardcountered" to doing the hard countering, now that example was very basic. But if you see a terran that goes 5 rax before his 3rd cc, there's no real getting out of what he's gonna do, if you see his addons, you can also tell what army comp you're gonna face, If you see 1/1/1 from a terran with an oracle for instance, you see the addons or lack of, and you can tell what's coming, and everything that comes out of a 1/1/1 has the a very similar response and won't really slow down a toss. If you see 3 cc, you can change, if you see 3 rax then 3rd cc, you have your 3rd up already and respond appropriately. Protoss will always get the 3rd up faster than the terran, they can scout better than a terran (Oracle or observers) and they get upgrades faster than a terran, they also have much better late game so the Terran is working with less readable. The shield battery is a very quick "Ah, so the terran is going to be pushing at X:xx minute mark, i'll throw up 3 shield batteries for the attack since my economy is better." All in all, when you play as a Terran vs Protoss, you pick a build at the start of the game, the issue comes in that once you've made your choice, that's it, can do the hard countering, or be hard countered, but as long as a Protoss scouts, he should never realistically be hard countered. It's a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors where they can change their answer. Extremely frustrating and very unforgiving for a terran. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxbtrmw/ Further explanations from Demuslim: The specific point you missed here is, they can afford to do it since they get a 3rd up much faster than a terran meaning their economy is better, so technically if You survive, you win. Throwing up bunkers because an attack is coming, vs an opponent that is already ahead because they have an extra base, is not a way of getting out of a bad situation, it's a way of further cementing it. Most TvP's you see will have this trend where Protoss has the harrass Option (oracle) while also getting up a third much faster, so they not only get to expand faster, they also have better scouting info with their harrass tool. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxieovz/ And even further explanations from Demuslim: You're missing the point again, having a third base doesn't mean that's where you're going to attack, having a third base means you have a superior economy and so the argument you made earlier saying, terran can just slap down bunkers right, or Zerg can just slap down static right, You can, but if you're already behind you're cementing that position of being behind. You don't play TvT where your opponent is already on 3 bases, and then you take your 3rd later and make it a PF, you just guaranteed you lost the game. Acid Plant and Catalyst -- Catalyst is a great example of a map you don't drop reason being -- there's only 1 drop spot (The main), and realistically only 1 ground attack spot (at the third, you're never gonna go up the ramps near the natural as 1 sentry will ruin your day). And so being able to put down Shield batteries only at the third (Natural isn't penetrable) and the 130 supply, superior economy vs the 120 supply, inferior economy situation, especially as you can revelate his army permanently, or have observers to keep tabs, losing to drops in the main with stalkers waiting at high level isn't something that's going to happen, especially given the ground point of attack is across the map compared to the main meaning no room for back and forth. You talking about Protoss All ins to validate your point is kinda like me talking about how Zerg 1 base ling/bling all in counters cc first. It's not the meta the top level players are doing, and so bringing that up is as relevant as me talking about flavours of tea in this convo. You watch Maru, Inno or TY try play TvP, Innovation in the Olimo league was a great example of how terrans are playing, it's 2 base or die trying. If you're doing a 2 base all in vs a protoss, there's no chance of flying and dropping into a base, the chances of losing are far higher than a ground attack, hence why the best terrans don't do that, you utilise the best ground position you can. (Which your opponents will also know, which is why it's easy to know where to put up static). I wrote a decent lengthed paragraph of a multitude of situations that all accumulate to give Protoss an edge, for you to speak specifically of only specifically shield batteries is incorrect. And given you're speaking of examples and scenarios that don't occur at a top level, and seemingly missing every point I bring up, I think we should conclude here and just agree to disagree. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxil6i2/ | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 09 2018 12:57 xelnaga_empire wrote: For the Protoss players that don't understand why Blizzard had to make these changes, Protoss had an advantage going into the mid-game against Terran. Demuslim explains it pretty well here: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxbtrmw/ Further explanations from Demuslim: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxieovz/ And even further explanations from Demuslim: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/8c0cr7/meanwhile_uthermal_vs_dns/dxil6i2/ You're speaking to a non-existent audience. This thread is all about the upset mech and zerg players. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
620 Posts
On May 09 2018 13:04 ZigguratOfUr wrote: You're speaking to a non-existent audience. This thread is all about the upset mech and zerg players. Zerg players getting upset is premature. The Anti Armor Missile nerf is a huge nerf to the Terran late game. It's possible that Terrran late game is worse off after this patch, despite the other buffs. People are saying that the Marauder buff will hurt Ultralisks. But they also need to consider the impact the Anti Armor Missile nerf has on Terran late game against Zerg now. It's possible that the other buffs to Terran won't compensate for the Anti Armor Missile nerf in the late game. We'll have to see when the patch comes out. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
those s ö y b ö y terrans don't understand the game from the Falling angle (http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/360325-in-defence-of-mech), they don't know what a mag field accelerator is and probably never seen a cyclone army kite a roach army. oh, you made 4 starports and now you're a mech player?? tell me more about your maru builds you clueless wee dote ja ja, everyone wants mech to be viable, but not like this. raven """mech""" is fake mech played by talentless & fantasyless pricks that don't give a fuck about mech -- but only how big their flying air penises look and how they can score enough mana to put in their flobby asses so they can shit all over the map with gg missiles. mech = factory ground units with SOME support from other units. terran players were too busy sitting on their throne of DICKS they didn't even protest patch 3.8.0 because the changes was perceived as a buff. terran players would rather have zero skill warhounds than high skill glass cannon cyclones. think about it. there is no difference in skill between Maru controlling a cyclone and a gold league player controlling a cyclone. the only thing Maru can do better is repair and pick up with a medivac. why don't terran players cry about this? because it gets u free wins sometimes, amirite? terran players don't care about good unit design, they only want to be the ez race | ||
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