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On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life.
It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse".
Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces.
Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong.
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On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong.
Being able to make it to the grand finals, while having a solid representation in the higher brackets, is a sign of good balance for that race.
It is also not a co-incidence that we do not get a lot of new up-and-coming Terran pros (both in Korea and foreign scene).
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On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong.
There are no divine forces. soO and ByuL just can't win in the pressure of a final.
GSL is a small sample size, GSL champions is an even smaller one. Zerg is fine when you look at tournaments and results overall. soO, Dark, and Rogue are regulars at making it to later stages of tournaments
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You'd think people would at least stop whining on the day of the balance patch but Terran, Protoss, and Zerg whiners are all posting here today.
1. Whining a couple hours before the patch hits-->Wait for the fucking patch
2. Whining a couple hours after the patch hits-->Wait for the fucking meta
People will always whine, obviously, but there's a time and a place and this isn't it. I thought this was TL, not bnet.
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On May 16 2018 01:40 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 00:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 15 2018 23:20 NonY wrote:On May 15 2018 21:17 insitelol wrote:
This change got alomost NO effect on zealot, as single marauder attack gets only 1 vs nonarmored units (while old one got + 2). Specifically I think the issue was about 0-0 terran vs 1-1 protoss w/ guardian shield, or 1-1 terran vs 2-2 protoss w/ guardian shield. In those cases, a marauder used to do 2 damage on a zealot and now it'll do 6. Against a stalker, it was 12 damage and now it'll be 16 (0-0 vs 1-1) or 17 (1-1 vs 2-2). Those are big differences that'll have a big effect on the whole matchup because terrans were having to play in weird ways specifically to avoid fights where protoss could take advantage of invincible zealots. Just curious, how often does Protoss even use Guardian Shield in PvT? I rarely see it in pro games because you're absolutely right about Guardian Shield being the thing that is most impacted by the Marauder change. But I just rarely see it used so I don't know if it's going to have a big impact on the winrate of the match up by itself. This change is just going to make Marauders a little better vs Immortals and Collosus. Well that's what I mean by saying these changes could have a big effect on the whole matchup. Terran has been playing a different way out of necessity. So protoss plays differently. But if terrans started repeatedly playing old styles of just heavy MMM, you'd see protoss respond and deal with it extremely effectively. I don't think that this patch will make it so that there are certain builds terrans can immediately start doing with great success. But the increased effectiveness of marauders will creep into each terran's play as they figure out which situations marauders are okay to get. And in the long term it'll be better for the game for a basic unit to be a little more reliable. Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 00:59 insitelol wrote:On May 15 2018 23:20 NonY wrote:On May 15 2018 21:17 insitelol wrote:
This change got alomost NO effect on zealot, as single marauder attack gets only 1 vs nonarmored units (while old one got + 2). Specifically I think the issue was about 0-0 terran vs 1-1 protoss w/ guardian shield, or 1-1 terran vs 2-2 protoss w/ guardian shield. In those cases, a marauder used to do 2 damage on a zealot and now it'll do 6. Against a stalker, it was 12 damage and now it'll be 16 (0-0 vs 1-1) or 17 (1-1 vs 2-2). Those are big differences that'll have a big effect on the whole matchup because terrans were having to play in weird ways specifically to avoid fights where protoss could take advantage of invincible zealots. I get your idea here, but this is just too much. Be should stop babysitting terrans. Being behind in upgrades (if its even an issue) is an eco problem that shouldnt be adressed with wierd unit tweaks. Anyways. Zealots MELT to mines. Its absurd how efficient mines are against zealot plays. And lets be honest already. PvT is almost perfectly fine without any tweaks. All that whine is just an echo from the past of those who dont want to adjust their plays. They get behind in upgrades because protoss has chrono boost. You'd begin unraveling the whole game just to keep some particular thing you want, without a care for all the people who like the things you're taking away. I think each race enjoys being able to build a solid basic army. It's been a desire for protoss for a long time (to buff gateway units). I think it's good for the game to make MMM a little more solid and reliable in general.
I agree that Terran needed that change when it comes to PvZ, but don't u think that with that live, Blizzard is creating a problem in TvZ?
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On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong.
Don't really know what you're so upset about with the current World champion being Z, runner-up also Z with a Ro16 distribution of 3 P, 5 T and 8 Z.
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good thing I switched from protoss to terran lol
I get to avoid all the marauder allins on ladder.
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+10 hp boys. The time is right for the landed viking harass. Hots trailer viking will be proud.
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How are Ultras hanging on marauders? \m/
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With +10hp, so great, so huge buff, you can land vs ultralisk, Make Terran Great Again ! best balance ever ! told you HoTs trailer was real ! +10hp will even get all illegals zerglings out of yours bases ! Land Viking and MTGA ! For free, coz THEY will pay the buff!
On a more serious note, i prognostic maurauder buff to have a sensible effect in TvP (but not that much in top pro TvZ, except vs roach play), but viking buff ? Maybe for some mid-game anti-collosi timing/all-ins.
In late game vikings are super bad and get super hard-countered by storm/archon/vipers, so +10hp won't change anything, nor 'compensate' the raven nerf. If anything, we will more ghosts in late game TvZ (who was already stronger than raven in most cases), witch is bad, because snipe is such a defensive spell it's sadly best played while staying behind PF and turrets.
In TvP we will see if some bio build force toss to be less greedy in eco+upgrades (the reasons terrans feels TvP unfair). I don't think so but let's see. But maybe we will see the come back of 5rax heavy pressure/drop play.
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On May 16 2018 10:25 xongnox wrote:
.But maybe we will see the come back of 5rax heavy pressure/drop play.
What come back? Thats been the meta for months.
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I think Blizzard missed an opportunity here, at least from a ZvT perspective. The marauder buff...that is pretty cool, and it makes them a lot better vs. ultralisks late game. With that taken into consideration, why nerf ravens? I think the obvious choice is to nerf ghosts instead, and leave ravens the way they were. How about halving the damage of steady shot, or halving the amount of energy dissipated by EMP instead of the AA missile damage?
Now that ultralisks are (to an even greater extent) hard countered by marauders, Terran doesn't need ghosts to be able to shred 1k+ gas worth of overseers at no cost to them besides energy. Brood lord deathballs could still be cleaned out by ravens, but now Terran wouldn't be able to choose between snipe killing an entire control group of BLs and AA missil-ing them.
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On May 16 2018 05:21 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong. Don't really know what you're so upset about with the current World champion being Z, runner-up also Z with a Ro16 distribution of 3 P, 5 T and 8 Z.
I don't like the idiotic notion of atributing Zerg being unable to win a GSL to a "curse" or "choking".
I also don't like when someone brings up racial distribution from a glorified weekender that invited half the players from outside Korea and happened half a year ago, but that's different fucking matter.
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On May 16 2018 14:15 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:21 Creager wrote:On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong. Don't really know what you're so upset about with the current World champion being Z, runner-up also Z with a Ro16 distribution of 3 P, 5 T and 8 Z. I don't like the idiotic notion of atributing Zerg being unable to win a GSL to a "curse" or "choking". I also don't like when someone brings up racial distribution from a glorified weekender that invited half the players from outside Korea and happened half a year ago, but that's different fucking matter.
If you don't believe in the Kong curse, how do you explain soO making it to 6 GSL finals and losing every single time? Not to mention DH Stockholm, IEM gamescom, and Blizzcon. The man plows through stacked playoff brackets time and time again, but simply can't get a gold.
Clearly there's something more than bad luck at work here. Some kind of mental block that soO can't get over.
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On May 16 2018 13:56 mierin wrote:
I think Blizzard missed an opportunity here, at least from a ZvT perspective. The marauder buff...that is pretty cool, and it makes them a lot better vs. ultralisks late game. With that taken into consideration, why nerf ravens? I think the obvious choice is to nerf ghosts instead, and leave ravens the way they were. How about halving the damage of steady shot, or halving the amount of energy dissipated by EMP instead of the AA missile damage?
Now that ultralisks are (to an even greater extent) hard countered by marauders, Terran doesn't need ghosts to be able to shred 1k+ gas worth of overseers at no cost to them besides energy. Brood lord deathballs could still be cleaned out by ravens, but now Terran wouldn't be able to choose between snipe killing an entire control group of BLs and AA missil-ing them.
in tvt raven was a problem too, 2 missiles was enough to instakill bunch of marines in first fight, tvt's earlygame variety is already too small cuz of almighty cyclones.
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On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong.
Then why did those "divine forces" stop soO and Byul in the finals but not before that? You can't argue that soO and Byul aren't bad in finals, before that they managed to beat most opponents. soO beat Zest in GSL season 3 semis but lost to him in GSL season 1 final and Byul beat Inno in SSL while losing to him in GSL finals just to name two examples.
Dark also certainly didn't lose game 6 against Stats because Zerg is weak.
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On May 16 2018 14:31 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 14:15 Ej_ wrote:On May 16 2018 05:21 Creager wrote:On May 16 2018 02:41 Ej_ wrote:On May 16 2018 01:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 16 2018 01:04 Haukinger wrote:
Why exactly do they think they need to buff against Zerg when no Zerg has won a single GSL since Life more than three years ago? Because outside of GSL Zerg has been pretty damn dominant for the last couple of years. The foreign scene in particular is a massive Zerg fest, and it's only getting worse with Serral reaching Super Saiyan Blue status. And even in GSL's case, sure no Zerg has won the whole thing since Life, but we've had Zergs basically in the finals every year with soO being there like 4-5 times. If soO wasn't so cursed Zerg could easily have like 3-4 GSL titles since Life. It's really impressive how you managed to spin foreign, notably low-level (with all due respect to non-Korean pros, but WCS isn't GSL) scene to somehow reflect satte of Zerg's dominance while the inability for Zerg to win a GSL is just "curse". Yep, because soO was always favored to win. Every GSL final he played, he just either choked it away or was stopped by divine forces. Oh and btw, while there have been 4 appearances of Zerg in GSL finals since Life's win, onyl 2 of them were soO (in LotV). The 2 in Heart of the Swarm were ByuL's. A player who gained notoriety as being able to win in the not-so-friendly to Zerg meta of mech and +2 blink, but somehow, by supernatural forces, was also always stopped in his tracks in finals and eventually labaled a Kong. Don't really know what you're so upset about with the current World champion being Z, runner-up also Z with a Ro16 distribution of 3 P, 5 T and 8 Z. I don't like the idiotic notion of atributing Zerg being unable to win a GSL to a "curse" or "choking". I also don't like when someone brings up racial distribution from a glorified weekender that invited half the players from outside Korea and happened half a year ago, but that's different fucking matter. If you don't believe in the Kong curse, how do you explain soO making it to 6 GSL finals and losing every single time? Not to mention DH Stockholm, IEM gamescom, and Blizzcon. The man plows through stacked playoff brackets time and time again, but simply can't get a gold. Clearly there's something more than bad luck at work here. Some kind of mental block that soO can't get over.
He can't win the finals because Zerg is underpowered. Ah wait how did he manage to reach the finals then?
I mean Zerg is only underpowered in bo7s.
Ah wait, how did he win all the semis then?
I mean Zerg is only underpowered in high pressure situations like finals.
Oh what do you mean? Life and Rogue are good in finals...?uhh I don't know then.
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Rogue was never close to a starleague final and Life was never close to the GSL studio in LotV, but w/e. Zerg players are just chokers.
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On May 16 2018 17:10 Ej_ wrote:
Rogue was never close to a starleague final and Life was never close to the GSL studio in LotV, but w/e. Zerg players are just chokers.
What other explanation do you have?
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On May 16 2018 17:10 Ej_ wrote:
Rogue was never close to a starleague final and Life was never close to the GSL studio in LotV, but w/e. Zerg players are just chokers.
I have no idea why you insist on viewing this as some attack on Zerg as a race. soO and Dark are individual players, and whatever personal mental obstacles they have are their own, not some magical quality of their race.
MKP was a Kong too, but that didn't mean all of Terran was cursed or something (as Mvp demonstrated more than once).
GSL finalists are an absurdly tiny sample, and GSL champions halve that sample size, as if it wasn't small enough already. Using Zerg's lack of GSL trophies in LotV as some kind of balance argument is ridiculous. Applying similar (flawed) logic, I could argue that Terran was underpowered for the entirety of HotS because a grand total of 1 single Terran ever made the GSL finals during that entire expansion, compared to 4 Zerg and 5 Protoss finalists.
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EPT
