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GuMiho, Patience advance to GSL Code S RO16 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
66 CommentsPost a Reply
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pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-24 00:50:42
April 24 2018 00:49 GMT
#61
On April 24 2018 09:16 FrkFrJss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.

After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.

Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.

Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.


NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across.

That's not really an apt comparison because it assumes that the steroids equalize the the second weightlifters to that of the first weightlifters, when in reality, it does not.

To be an apt comparison, you should also add that the first weightlifter has his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition, whereas the second weightlifter does not have his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition.

However, in this example, the wrestling board has created all these other tournaments that anyone can enter in regardless of skill. Because the first wrestler had all the advantages, of course they dominate.

So in response, the wrestling body creates an amateur league where only the second wrestler and those of his or her skill can compete. Someone who is perfectly qualified can compete in the amateur league, but only if he or she relinquishes his or her spot in the first league. Because that person naturally competed in the first league, he or she cannot leverage those advantages both ways in that he/she is capable of competing in the first league and dominating in the amateur league.

However, because the second wrestler is at a lower skill level, he is able to compete in the higher league to get experience. There's no expectation that the second wrestler will do well because of the difference in skill, but they are able to get experience.

This is a more apt comparison, and where the analogy breaks down is that the amateur league has increased while the primary league has decreased to the point where although the first league is still generally stronger, the amateurs are able to more competitively compete in the first league. However, the amateurs are still largely inferior to those from the first league.

So it sounds like we need a mid-tier league where the best of the amateur league and the worst of the primary league can compete.


If you replace "wrestling" with "SC2" this just gets us back to reality, which kinda defeats the whole point of using an analogy.

That being said, I do agree with your conclusion of a mid-tier league where players of all nationalities can compete with others according to skill level.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
10dla
Profile Joined March 2018
127 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-24 01:18:33
April 24 2018 01:16 GMT
#62
On April 24 2018 06:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Your yearly reminder that it was the community who pushed for the region lock, thus creating this awesome situation of "Urgh I can't believe there is no region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing" straight into a "Urgh I can't believe there is a region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing".

Your yearly reminder that the problem is not that koreans are excluded from WCS. The problems is that foreigner are allowed to train and play in korea/GSL/WCS. Which is the exact reason why koreans were banned in the first place. Especially "now" that koreans train the same way everyone else does: In their bedroom
FrkFrJss
Profile Joined April 2015
Canada1205 Posts
April 24 2018 01:25 GMT
#63
On April 24 2018 09:49 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2018 09:16 FrkFrJss wrote:
On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.

After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.

Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.

Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.


NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across.

That's not really an apt comparison because it assumes that the steroids equalize the the second weightlifters to that of the first weightlifters, when in reality, it does not.

To be an apt comparison, you should also add that the first weightlifter has his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition, whereas the second weightlifter does not have his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition.

However, in this example, the wrestling board has created all these other tournaments that anyone can enter in regardless of skill. Because the first wrestler had all the advantages, of course they dominate.

So in response, the wrestling body creates an amateur league where only the second wrestler and those of his or her skill can compete. Someone who is perfectly qualified can compete in the amateur league, but only if he or she relinquishes his or her spot in the first league. Because that person naturally competed in the first league, he or she cannot leverage those advantages both ways in that he/she is capable of competing in the first league and dominating in the amateur league.

However, because the second wrestler is at a lower skill level, he is able to compete in the higher league to get experience. There's no expectation that the second wrestler will do well because of the difference in skill, but they are able to get experience.

This is a more apt comparison, and where the analogy breaks down is that the amateur league has increased while the primary league has decreased to the point where although the first league is still generally stronger, the amateurs are able to more competitively compete in the first league. However, the amateurs are still largely inferior to those from the first league.

So it sounds like we need a mid-tier league where the best of the amateur league and the worst of the primary league can compete.


If you replace "wrestling" with "SC2" this just gets us back to reality, which kinda defeats the whole point of using an analogy.

That being said, I do agree with your conclusion of a mid-tier league where players of all nationalities can compete with others according to skill level.

But contextualizing in within the example of wrestling takes it out of the Starcraft 2 context. And when I'm looking at it from a wrestling context, the system doesn't seem unfair.

Because the difference is that TRUE is better than most foreigners, and he has the privilege of being raised in that Korean culture and teamhouse, which means that when he is competing in WCS, he is bring all of those advantages to bear, whereas when foreigners are competing in the GSL, they are bringing none of those advantages. The only advantage they are using is the ability to compete (and lose) in more tournaments.

It'd be different if they competed and won, but that's not what happened. Whereas TRUE did come and win, and he's consistently been top 4 or top 8 in WCS.

However, with regards to the league.

So we have an amatuer/challenger/GSL league. The amateur league and the challenger league are both region unlocked, and so it gives points to both WCS Korea/WCS global. The amateur league and the challenger league are based on points, so if you reached a certain level of points, you have to compete in the challenger league. However, anyone from the lower league can compete in the upper league, but if you reach a certain threshold of points, then you are restricted from competing in a certain level of competition.

The amateur league also gives out less points, so if someone wins in the amateur league, that person won't automatically be booted into the challenger league. The challenger league has a maximum WCS Korea point threshold, so that if you reached a certain threshold in WCS Korea, then you cannot compete in the challenger league. But it does not have a maximum WCS Global point threshold because some foreigners will stay exclusively in WCS Global.

The point threshold would be based off of a year rotation, so that if you did well last year, you can't just drop out of the GSL to compete this year.

For foreigners and Koreans, though, it would have to be different to start and then come to be the same. Scarlett performed well in last year's GSL but hasn't done well in WCS events or in this season's GSL, so next year, Scarlett's WCS Korea points threshold would be higher than someone who mainly competed in the GSL. However, the year following, everyone would start at the same level.

Not sure how this would affect the Global finals.....but if Blizzard still wanted foreigners to compete, then you could use the separation of WCS Global/WCS Korea points

"Keep Moving Forward" - Walt Disney
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12204 Posts
April 24 2018 08:16 GMT
#64
On April 24 2018 10:16 10dla wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2018 06:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Your yearly reminder that it was the community who pushed for the region lock, thus creating this awesome situation of "Urgh I can't believe there is no region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing" straight into a "Urgh I can't believe there is a region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing".

Your yearly reminder that the problem is not that koreans are excluded from WCS. The problems is that foreigner are allowed to train and play in korea/GSL/WCS. Which is the exact reason why koreans were banned in the first place. Especially "now" that koreans train the same way everyone else does: In their bedroom


You can't do a yearly reminder on something controversial, that's not how reminders work. To me and to a lot of people on this forum the problem is very much that Koreans aren't allowed in WCS.
No will to live, no wish to die
Nostromo1
Profile Joined April 2016
37 Posts
April 24 2018 12:28 GMT
#65
Yeah I can't wait for Maru to twirl a cane through that joke of a group F while every other group seems pretty balanced with up to date semi/top tier players what a joke.
10dla
Profile Joined March 2018
127 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-24 13:45:31
April 24 2018 12:55 GMT
#66
On April 24 2018 17:16 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2018 10:16 10dla wrote:
On April 24 2018 06:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Your yearly reminder that it was the community who pushed for the region lock, thus creating this awesome situation of "Urgh I can't believe there is no region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing" straight into a "Urgh I can't believe there is a region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing".

Your yearly reminder that the problem is not that koreans are excluded from WCS. The problems is that foreigner are allowed to train and play in korea/GSL/WCS. Which is the exact reason why koreans were banned in the first place. Especially "now" that koreans train the same way everyone else does: In their bedroom


You can't do a yearly reminder on something controversial, that's not how reminders work. To me and to a lot of people on this forum the problem is very much that Koreans aren't allowed in WCS.

It wouldnt be a problem if WCS Foreigner wouldnt be allowed to play in Korea. Also the that foreigner play in korea have an advantage towards those who dont
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
April 24 2018 13:52 GMT
#67
What's there to discuss? Koreans don't have the background of the teams anymore, their only advantage is the fact GSL is fully in Korea and not online. The fact we have so many foreigners in RO32 signals something(and how many new Koreans)
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
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