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On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no?
I suppose you'll cheer against Ragnarok, TRUE, and Masa when they compete in WCS because they're subverting the rules?
Plus, TRUE is actually taking major spots away from foreigners in all the tournaments he's attended. Though he was not able to compete in the GSL, he did qualify for and play in the ST.
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On April 23 2018 21:02 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no? I suppose you'll cheer against Ragnarok, TRUE, and Masa when they compete in WCS because they're subverting the rules? Plus, TRUE is actually taking major spots away from foreigners in all the tournaments he's attended. Though he was not able to compete in the GSL, he did qualify for and play in the ST.
TRUE only really attempted to break the spirit of the rules when he wanted to compete in the GSL, GSL Super Tournament, AND WCS circuit events. He only tried to do that after it was well established that Blizzard wasn't going to do anything about the other players doing the same. When TRUE emigrated from Korea so he could play in the WCS Circuit, he was following the spirit and letter of the rules. The idea was that living in Korea gave players an advantage, so by leaving, he gave up that alleged advantage.
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the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 23 2018 22:31 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 21:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no? I suppose you'll cheer against Ragnarok, TRUE, and Masa when they compete in WCS because they're subverting the rules? Plus, TRUE is actually taking major spots away from foreigners in all the tournaments he's attended. Though he was not able to compete in the GSL, he did qualify for and play in the ST. TRUE only really attempted to break the spirit of the rules when he wanted to compete in the GSL, GSL Super Tournament, AND WCS circuit events. He only tried to do that after it was well established that Blizzard wasn't going to do anything about the other players doing the same. When TRUE emigrated from Korea so he could play in the WCS Circuit, he was following the spirit and letter of the rules. The idea was that living in Korea gave players an advantage, so by leaving, he gave up that alleged advantage.
Thanks! Exactly my thoughts.
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On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no?
I'm glad you have an opinion on the current system! That's great! It shows you are capable of rational thought. I would encourage you to lobby Blizzard directly instead of wishing others ill will, I think you will find this to be more helpful, healthy and effective.
On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about
My point exactly. The players have nothing to do with it, I don't see what any of them have done to deserve the level of vitriol they are receiving.
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On April 24 2018 00:47 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no? I'm glad you have an opinion on the current system! That's great! It shows you are capable of rational thought. I would encourage you to lobby Blizzard directly instead of wishing others ill will, I think you will find this to be more helpful, healthy and effective. Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about My point exactly. The players have nothing to do with it, I don't see what any of them have done to deserve the level of vitriol they are receiving.
The pros complaint about the "Korean Situation". Restricting WCS was reacting to feedback
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On April 23 2018 22:31 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 21:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no? I suppose you'll cheer against Ragnarok, TRUE, and Masa when they compete in WCS because they're subverting the rules? Plus, TRUE is actually taking major spots away from foreigners in all the tournaments he's attended. Though he was not able to compete in the GSL, he did qualify for and play in the ST. TRUE only really attempted to break the spirit of the rules when he wanted to compete in the GSL, GSL Super Tournament, AND WCS circuit events. He only tried to do that after it was well established that Blizzard wasn't going to do anything about the other players doing the same. When TRUE emigrated from Korea so he could play in the WCS Circuit, he was following the spirit and letter of the rules. The idea was that living in Korea gave players an advantage, so by leaving, he gave up that alleged advantage.
That's fair. I can definitely respect that.
But with Project Unity and the inhouse tournament they ran, I feel like that is giving back to the community. And because of how skilled (or not) they are, most of the foreigners aren't even playing in tournaments for a longer period of time because they get knocked so quickly. So even if they technically have access to more tournaments, they aren't usually playing in those tournaments longer than a ro32 Korean.
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On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about
I can't blame the foreigners who use every advantage possible, even unfair ones. They're just being rational humans.
I can't respect someone who deliberately exploits unfair advantages, though. Even if it is just being rational.
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On April 24 2018 01:00 10dla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 00:47 Arghmyliver wrote:On April 23 2018 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:On April 23 2018 07:50 Arghmyliver wrote:
What if instead of drinking haterade and feeling sorry for people we just said GGs all, congrats to the winners, better luck next time to the losers? Or would that be too mature for this like 20 year old community? If you have a problem with the system that's fine but I don't think being passive (or actively) aggressive to the players is an intelligent solution. But I don't want foreigners to have better luck next time. As long as the WCS is locked for Koreans I want GSL to be locked for foreigners. So, uhm, no? I'm glad you have an opinion on the current system! That's great! It shows you are capable of rational thought. I would encourage you to lobby Blizzard directly instead of wishing others ill will, I think you will find this to be more helpful, healthy and effective. On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about My point exactly. The players have nothing to do with it, I don't see what any of them have done to deserve the level of vitriol they are receiving. The pros complaint about the "Korean Situation". Restricting WCS was reacting to feedback
That's great. I don't think that gives license to ubiquitously demean foreignors in the GSL or Koreans in WCS. That just seems meanspirited and petty.
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On April 24 2018 01:53 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about I can't blame the foreigners who use every advantage possible, even unfair ones. They're just being rational humans. I can't respect someone who deliberately exploits unfair advantages, though. Even if it is just being rational.
I don't know if I'm willing to ascribe that level of malicious intent to someone for playing in two regions. The GSL has long been the holy grail of starcraft talent. It only makes sense that players would try to compete in it. I don't think foreignors are doing so with malice aforethought.
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On April 24 2018 01:53 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about I can't blame the foreigners who use every advantage possible, even unfair ones. They're just being rational humans. I can't respect someone who deliberately exploits unfair advantages, though. Even if it is just being rational.
You could say that Koreans living in Korea and playing in WCS America was doing just this (and to a lesser extent WCS EU). They were exploiting the fact that they didn't need to live in America and just played, won, and left. Of course, while some Koreans did actually live and play in America, many did not.
Or conversely, you could say the Koreans were exploiting their cultural and team house advantage by playing in every tournament possible from 2011-2014 and causing the collapse of the foreign scene.
But of course, their actions were a result of no regulation from 2011-2012 and not limited enough regulation in 2013-2014. They naturally gravitated towards the competitions, and it was really up to Blizzard to create a league where lesser players could compete and earn a living.
So I don't have any ire towards Koreans then, and neither do I have any ire towards foreigners now. Players will gravitate towards opportunities, and it's on Blizzard to create the rules in a way that supports all scenes while not being so entirely restrictive.
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On April 24 2018 02:04 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 01:53 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about I can't blame the foreigners who use every advantage possible, even unfair ones. They're just being rational humans. I can't respect someone who deliberately exploits unfair advantages, though. Even if it is just being rational. I don't know if I'm willing to ascribe that level of malicious intent to someone for playing in two regions. The GSL has long been the holy grail of starcraft talent. It only makes sense that players would try to compete in it. I don't think foreignors are doing so with malice aforethought.
Not sure why you are bringing malice into this, I never mentioned malicious intent. Only deliberate intent.
The foreigners are making a conscious choice to play in both GSL and WCS. This is a deliberate action on their part, and permitted under region-lock, and they are fully aware that region-lock forbids Koreans from doing the same.
Hence my lack of blame, and my lack of respect.
On April 24 2018 02:42 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 01:53 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 22:39 brickrd wrote:
the fact that people want to place blame on foreign OR korean players for degrading the scene is endlessly astonishing to me. in the sc2 industry the players are workers, and workers follow what they think are the most attractive job prospects. they're simply players trying to play
sometimes a game slows down because its time has passed, it's not always the result of some dramatic incompetence we need to whine about I can't blame the foreigners who use every advantage possible, even unfair ones. They're just being rational humans. I can't respect someone who deliberately exploits unfair advantages, though. Even if it is just being rational. You could say that Koreans living in Korea and playing in WCS America was doing just this (and to a lesser extent WCS EU). They were exploiting the fact that they didn't need to live in America and just played, won, and left. Of course, while some Koreans did actually live and play in America, many did not. Or conversely, you could say the Koreans were exploiting their cultural and team house advantage by playing in every tournament possible from 2011-2014 and causing the collapse of the foreign scene. But of course, their actions were a result of no regulation from 2011-2012 and not limited enough regulation in 2013-2014. They naturally gravitated towards the competitions, and it was really up to Blizzard to create a league where lesser players could compete and earn a living. So I don't have any ire towards Koreans then, and neither do I have any ire towards foreigners now. Players will gravitate towards opportunities, and it's on Blizzard to create the rules in a way that supports all scenes while not being so entirely restrictive.
You really can't say the same at all.
I believe I have discussed this issue before with you. The Koreans had an "organic advantage" by virtue of being born in a nation with an established esports infrastructure. None of them chose to be born Korean, and thus we while you could argue they had an unfair advantage, it was not one that any of them deliberately chose to have.
The foreigners, on the other hand, have an "artificial advantage" courtesy of region-lock. Unlike the Koreans being born into a system, the foreigners are making a conscious and deliberate choice to embrace the unfair advantage this gives them. They are totally free to decide otherwise. Serral, for instance, remains within his own region and does not exploit the system.
The Koreans never made a choice. The foreigners did, and still are. I don't blame them for it; I would probably do the same if I were them. But I can't respect them for it either.
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Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across.
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On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across.
Why not? Could you respect the first weightlifter for leveraging his upbringing to achieve victory? Why doesn't he take the steroids too if they are safe, healthy, and legal? If he is being forbidden by the government then surely the government deserves your derision rather than the underprivileged weightlifter. Once again your issue is with the system and not the player.
The analogy breaks down anyways because you are implying an inherent advantage for one party and a permant disadvantage for the other that is insurmountable without a permanent external intervention. Clearly that is not the case in this situation. Maybe the time for the region lock has passed, maybe it was never necessary to begin with, regardless your issue is with an imbalance you perceive in the system. Region lock doesn't make the GSL any less competitive - it seems petty at best not to respect the legitimate accomplishments of players because of where they are from. If anything foreigners in the GSL should have more respect as they CHOOSE to compete in the more inclusive and therefore more competitive region. Using your analogy, consider an island of world reknowned weightlifters who are barred from competition elsewhere due to their dominance. Some weightlifters from other countries dare to travel to the island and challenge them, but when they are successful you consider that accomplishment somehow diminished because of the ban?
I just don't see why it's so difficult to acknowledge players' success and criticize the system simultaneously.
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On April 24 2018 03:44 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across. Why not? Could you respect the first weightlifter for leveraging his upbringing to achieve victory? Why doesn't he take the steroids too if they are safe, healthy, and legal? If he is being forbidden by the government then surely the government deserves your derision rather than the underprivileged weightlifter. Once again your issue is with the system and not the player. The analogy breaks down anyways because you are implying an inherent advantage for one party and a permant disadvantage for the other that is insurmountable without a permanent external intervention. Clearly that is not the case in this situation. Maybe the time for the region lock has passed, maybe it was never necessary to begin with, regardless your issue is with an imbalance you perceive in the system. Region lock doesn't make the GSL any less competitive - it seems petty at best not to respect the legitimate accomplishments of players because of where they are from. If anything foreigners in the GSL should have more respect as they CHOOSE to compete in the more inclusive and therefore more competitive region. Using your analogy, consider an island of world reknowned weightlifters who are barred from competition elsewhere due to their dominance. Some weightlifters from other countries dare to travel to the island and challenge them, but when they are successful you consider that accomplishment somehow diminished because of the ban? I just don't see why it's so difficult to acknowledge players' success and criticize the system simultaneously.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Do you see me applauding region-lock? I don't like Blizzard for implementing it, and I don't like the foreigners for exploiting it.
I would respect the foreigners if they did what you said; if Scarlett, Major, etc, withdrew from all WCS events to play in GSL (like, yknow, the way Blizzard forces the Koreans to do), I would respect them immensely. But they are doing no such thing. They're having their cake and eating it too, and I can't respect that.
And as far as I can tell, "insurmountable without a permanent external intervention" describes SC2 perfectly. The gap hasn't actually narrowed, per se, between Korea and the foreign scene. Or at least not enough to be truly significant. While it is certainly true that there are far more foreigners these days at the level of mid-tier Koreans, the top Koreans are as untouchable as ever. Of course there are always the occasional upsets or cheeses or whatever, but that sort of thing was happening well before region-lock and hasn't changed. Inno vs Naniwa happened years ago, as did Life vs Sjow. Neeb looked like he might be the start of something more, but turned out to just be the most dramatic example.
The favorite sons of KeSPA are still unrivaled and, in all likelihood, will remain so until they are forced to step down to enlist.
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On April 24 2018 04:07 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 03:44 Arghmyliver wrote:On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across. Why not? Could you respect the first weightlifter for leveraging his upbringing to achieve victory? Why doesn't he take the steroids too if they are safe, healthy, and legal? If he is being forbidden by the government then surely the government deserves your derision rather than the underprivileged weightlifter. Once again your issue is with the system and not the player. The analogy breaks down anyways because you are implying an inherent advantage for one party and a permant disadvantage for the other that is insurmountable without a permanent external intervention. Clearly that is not the case in this situation. Maybe the time for the region lock has passed, maybe it was never necessary to begin with, regardless your issue is with an imbalance you perceive in the system. Region lock doesn't make the GSL any less competitive - it seems petty at best not to respect the legitimate accomplishments of players because of where they are from. If anything foreigners in the GSL should have more respect as they CHOOSE to compete in the more inclusive and therefore more competitive region. Using your analogy, consider an island of world reknowned weightlifters who are barred from competition elsewhere due to their dominance. Some weightlifters from other countries dare to travel to the island and challenge them, but when they are successful you consider that accomplishment somehow diminished because of the ban? I just don't see why it's so difficult to acknowledge players' success and criticize the system simultaneously. The two are not mutually exclusive. Do you see me applauding region-lock? I don't like Blizzard for implementing it, and I don't like the foreigners for exploiting it. I would respect the foreigners if they did what you said; if Scarlett, Major, etc, withdrew from all WCS events to play in GSL (like, yknow, the way Blizzard forces the Koreans to do), I would respect them immensely. But they are doing no such thing. They're having their cake and eating it too, and I can't respect that. And as far as I can tell, "insurmountable without a permanent external intervention" describes SC2 perfectly. The gap hasn't actually narrowed, per se, between Korea and the foreign scene. Or at least not enough to be truly significant. While it is certainly true that there are far more foreigners these days at the level of mid-tier Koreans, the top Koreans are as untouchable as ever. Of course there are always the occasional upsets or cheeses or whatever, but that sort of thing was happening well before region-lock and hasn't changed. Inno vs Naniwa happened years ago, as did Life vs Sjow. Neeb looked like he might be the start of something more, but turned out to just be the most dramatic example. The favorite sons of KeSPA are still unrivaled and, in all likelihood, will remain so until they are forced to step down to enlist.
I dunno dude, it just seems like your "lack of respect" is a little melodramatic and your energy a little misplaced if you genuinely care about addressing the issue. But you do you! I disagree with your methods and your mentality but I still respect you : ). I only ask you perhaps consider extending the same courtesy to the players in question.
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On April 24 2018 05:36 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 04:07 pvsnp wrote:On April 24 2018 03:44 Arghmyliver wrote:On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across. Why not? Could you respect the first weightlifter for leveraging his upbringing to achieve victory? Why doesn't he take the steroids too if they are safe, healthy, and legal? If he is being forbidden by the government then surely the government deserves your derision rather than the underprivileged weightlifter. Once again your issue is with the system and not the player. The analogy breaks down anyways because you are implying an inherent advantage for one party and a permant disadvantage for the other that is insurmountable without a permanent external intervention. Clearly that is not the case in this situation. Maybe the time for the region lock has passed, maybe it was never necessary to begin with, regardless your issue is with an imbalance you perceive in the system. Region lock doesn't make the GSL any less competitive - it seems petty at best not to respect the legitimate accomplishments of players because of where they are from. If anything foreigners in the GSL should have more respect as they CHOOSE to compete in the more inclusive and therefore more competitive region. Using your analogy, consider an island of world reknowned weightlifters who are barred from competition elsewhere due to their dominance. Some weightlifters from other countries dare to travel to the island and challenge them, but when they are successful you consider that accomplishment somehow diminished because of the ban? I just don't see why it's so difficult to acknowledge players' success and criticize the system simultaneously. The two are not mutually exclusive. Do you see me applauding region-lock? I don't like Blizzard for implementing it, and I don't like the foreigners for exploiting it. I would respect the foreigners if they did what you said; if Scarlett, Major, etc, withdrew from all WCS events to play in GSL (like, yknow, the way Blizzard forces the Koreans to do), I would respect them immensely. But they are doing no such thing. They're having their cake and eating it too, and I can't respect that. And as far as I can tell, "insurmountable without a permanent external intervention" describes SC2 perfectly. The gap hasn't actually narrowed, per se, between Korea and the foreign scene. Or at least not enough to be truly significant. While it is certainly true that there are far more foreigners these days at the level of mid-tier Koreans, the top Koreans are as untouchable as ever. Of course there are always the occasional upsets or cheeses or whatever, but that sort of thing was happening well before region-lock and hasn't changed. Inno vs Naniwa happened years ago, as did Life vs Sjow. Neeb looked like he might be the start of something more, but turned out to just be the most dramatic example. The favorite sons of KeSPA are still unrivaled and, in all likelihood, will remain so until they are forced to step down to enlist. I dunno dude, it just seems like your "lack of respect" is a little melodramatic and your energy a little misplaced if you genuinely care about addressing the issue. But you do you! I disagree with your methods and your mentality but I still respect you : ). I only ask you perhaps consider extending the same courtesy to the players in question.
Let's be real, Blizzard does what it does for financial reasons, not what the fans think. The two are sometimes correlated, but fan sentiment is never their first priority. Especially not with something as polarizing as region-lock.
Also being real, Scarlett, Major, Elazer, etc, don't care about my respect, or lack thereof, any more than I care about theirs. I like to watch them play SC2 and they like to play SC2 (or like whatever rewards playing gets them). Personal opinions really aren't important here. I very much doubt they will ever even hear of me.
Melodramatic? I don't hate them, and "dislike" seemed too personal–afaik they are normal people–so I thought "respect" was the best word in that context to express disapproval of their choices.
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Your yearly reminder that it was the community who pushed for the region lock, thus creating this awesome situation of "Urgh I can't believe there is no region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing" straight into a "Urgh I can't believe there is a region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing".
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On April 24 2018 06:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Your yearly reminder that it was the community who pushed for the region lock, thus creating this awesome situation of "Urgh I can't believe there is no region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing" straight into a "Urgh I can't believe there is a region lock, wtf is Blizzard doing".
Different people have different opinions on the same issue. News at 11.
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On April 24 2018 03:01 pvsnp wrote:
Imagine, if you will, two weightlifters. One of them grew up in luxury, with a state-sponsored training regimen, the finest coaches, and cutting-edge equipment. The other grew up in poverty, and struggled to make ends meet between workouts.
After they are both adults, they compete. Obviously, the former is far superior. Therefore, the tournament organizers decide, in order to "even the odds" as it were, to give the latter steroids. Because this is an imaginary world, we can imagine these steroids are perfectly safe, healthy, and legal, with no side effects whatsoever.
Can I blame the second weightlifter for taking the steroids? After their deprived upbringing? Of course not.
Can I respect the second weightlifter's victory? After consuming performance-enhancing drugs? Of course not.
NB: Yes, I am fully aware that this analogy is not perfectly representative of all the subtleties and nuances of region-lock. That's why it's an analogy, and not the original thing itself. It gets the idea of the two different "unfair advantages" across.
That's not really an apt comparison because it assumes that the steroids equalize the the second weightlifters to that of the first weightlifters, when in reality, it does not.
To be an apt comparison, you should also add that the first weightlifter has his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition, whereas the second weightlifter does not have his or her own state-sponsored wrestling competition.
However, in this example, the wrestling board has created all these other tournaments that anyone can enter in regardless of skill. Because the first wrestler had all the advantages, of course they dominate.
So in response, the wrestling body creates an amateur league where only the second wrestler and those of his or her skill can compete. Someone who is perfectly qualified can compete in the amateur league, but only if he or she relinquishes his or her spot in the first league. Because that person naturally competed in the first league, he or she cannot leverage those advantages both ways in that he/she is capable of competing in the first league and dominating in the amateur league.
However, because the second wrestler is at a lower skill level, he is able to compete in the higher league to get experience. There's no expectation that the second wrestler will do well because of the difference in skill, but they are able to get experience.
This is a more apt comparison, and where the analogy breaks down is that the amateur league has increased while the primary league has decreased to the point where although the first league is still generally stronger, the amateurs are able to more competitively compete in the first league. However, the amateurs are still largely inferior to those from the first league.
So it sounds like we need a mid-tier league where the best of the amateur league and the worst of the primary league can compete.
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EPT
