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On April 20 2018 13:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 13:33 aish wrote:
I feel like the balance team just keeps sounding like reddit or team liquid forum warriors.
Like people actually think PvZ or PvT needs to be "fixed" when the balance and gameplay has been the best it's ever been in starcraft's history this year.
The only poor gameplay mechanic still in the game is mass raven; that's really it. PvsT balance is poor right now. That is the conclusion the Blizzard balance team has come to and they are correct. For more information on why PvsT balance is poor, I just posted the analysis by Demuslim above. If you can't find the analysis by Demuslim on why PvsT balance is poor, you can also read it here: www.reddit.com
are you implying Demuslim gives an honest non-bias opinion or? no offense but-
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On April 20 2018 13:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 13:33 aish wrote:
I feel like the balance team just keeps sounding like reddit or team liquid forum warriors.
Like people actually think PvZ or PvT needs to be "fixed" when the balance and gameplay has been the best it's ever been in starcraft's history this year.
The only poor gameplay mechanic still in the game is mass raven; that's really it. PvsT balance is poor right now. That is the conclusion the Blizzard balance team has come to and they are correct. For more information on why PvsT balance is poor, I just posted the analysis by Demuslim above. If you can't find the analysis by Demuslim on why PvsT balance is poor, you can also read it here: www.reddit.com
I wonder if we're seeing the dark side of removing the MSC. The SB enables a greedier early mid game, whereas the MSC enabled temporary safety in one location, and though the dps was high, the duration was fairly short.
One point that was touched on was that the SB enabled Protoss to hold third bases with minimal units. The difference with the MSC is that the pylons were usually more exposed and so were easier to take out.
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On April 20 2018 13:57 FrkFrJss wrote:
I wonder if we're seeing the dark side of removing the MSC. The SB enables a greedier early mid game, whereas the MSC enabled temporary safety in one location, and though the dps was high, the duration was fairly short.
One point that was touched on was that the SB enabled Protoss to hold third bases with minimal units. The difference with the MSC is that the pylons were usually more exposed and so were easier to take out.
One unintended consequence of the SB is making cloaked Banshees less effective, which allows Protoss to delay observers. Right now, some Protoss use a SB to offset the damage from cloaked Banshees. Before SB, Protoss needed to invest in a Robo and churn out an observer to stop cloaked Banshee harass. Now, the SB can limit damage from cloaked Banshee harass.
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On April 20 2018 14:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 13:57 FrkFrJss wrote:
I wonder if we're seeing the dark side of removing the MSC. The SB enables a greedier early mid game, whereas the MSC enabled temporary safety in one location, and though the dps was high, the duration was fairly short.
One point that was touched on was that the SB enabled Protoss to hold third bases with minimal units. The difference with the MSC is that the pylons were usually more exposed and so were easier to take out. One unintended consequence of the SB is making cloaked Banshees less effective, which allows Protoss to delay observers. Right now, some Protoss use a SB to offset the damage from cloaked Banshees. Before SB, Protoss needed to invest in a Robo and churn out an observer to stop cloaked Banshee harass. Now, the SB can limit damage from cloaked Banshee harass.
I'm going to need some evidence on that one. If you have no detection and no detection on the way for a cloaked banshee you're still screwed--the Shield Battery buys you roughly 15 seconds of losing probes at a reduced rate before running out.
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France12927 Posts
On April 20 2018 08:33 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 08:05 Boggyb wrote:On April 20 2018 07:58 DieuCure wrote:It's good that they admit that the TV is in a horrible posture. And that they took into account the "just play like Maru" meme.  On the other hand they will probably nerf the raven fast enough since the only ZvT won will be those of Dark and Solar in Ro32. If PatchZerglett loses to the GumiGod and fails to get out of the group, they'll probably delete ghosts and ravens then force Afreeka to replay the group. Off topic, but would it physically pain you to say anything positive about a non-Korean player? It feels like 95% of your posts on here are just shitting on foreigners, saying their accomplishments don't count and that only Koreans should be allowed to play SC2.
To be honest, as a terran player it's super frustrating to only see foreign zergs (and to a lesser extent, protoss) be successful against koreans.
Balance asides, the other races being easier mechanically doesn't help.
edit (point is that you quickly want to shit on some foreigners after some time)
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On April 20 2018 07:15 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 05:18 Tyrhanius wrote:Win rates, overall, slightly favor Zerg in this matchup so we want to be cautious about changes here. We want to focus more on Terran’s mid-game power that scales into the late game. Increasing options for a race in the mid game can also improve their late game through having greater control over pacing of the game. Mid-game options can also encourage more counterplay, as options in the late game usually trend towards closing out the match rather than providing control over transitioning. Ongoing results from GSL and WCS will better inform our decisions, and we do have to be careful overall, as this matchup seems to be trending in a good direction.
I have no idea which games bliz look to say "Zerg slightly favored" ? Serral vs Terran foreigner lol ? Aligulac winrate : 50.3% for T this code S : 80% for T last GSL : 58% for T WESG : 52% for for T so you just have GSL super tournament : with 46% for T... because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive... but innovation beat rogue, maru beat soo, and dark avoid maru thx to classic. Every zerg have experienced the mass raven camping in ladder, 70% of my games vs T are like that, Terran with passive play little harass, mass tanks so you can't attack and they look for lategame with mass raven... We have seen it on GSL, on challenger, on TvZ or on TvT. Late game is so bad balanced in this game since the beginning. Only mid-game is good in this game, the early is quite boring but ok, the lategame is just super lame. Here are the TvZ winrates you conveniently omitted: Aligulac for the last two complete periods: http://aligulac.com/periods/211/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.29%http://aligulac.com/periods/212/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.78%Last GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/77372-GSL-2018/ 47.39%This GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80696-GSL-2018-Season-2/ 47.52%GSL Super Tournament: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80577-GSL-2018-Super-Tournament-/#1/ 48.68%Also, LOL at 80% for "this code S". Yeah, those 5 games are super representative. What's next, claiming Terran has a 100% winrate when they win the first game of a set?
I know i wasn't saying look 80% winrates, Terran is imba. I was saying where the tendancy where Z is favored ? I know it's a small sample of games, but at least there are relevant because it's the best players of the world fighting each over.
You include qualifiers which is totally irrelevant.
Do you take games of diamond vs master to take about balance ? "Look the diamond terran lost vs the master Zerg, it's imba !"
No, i don't think so.
So why do you include some qualifiers where guys who have some 200 MMR difference and sometimes more are fighting ? The winrates of theses games means nothing at all.
Qualifiers always shows : the best and well known players usually qualify, the only thing interesting is if some top players meet each other in the qualifier.
Also taking everygames is stupid, if the question is "does ravens are imba vs Z", why taking account of non-raven games ?
If you want to answer the question, you need : equal level progamers fighting, at best the best progamers, only lategame games where someone hasn't a huge lead at the beginning.
And if you do, i bet the winrates for T will be some 80-90% maybe more.
As it's hard to find some games like that, we can reason by the absurd.
If the lategame is balanced (50% winrates) you have to find at least few games where Zerg wins (with equal skill, not a huge lead etc...).
If not, it's the proof it's imbalanced.
Feel free to upload theses games, i would be glad to learn how to defeat mass raven.
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France12927 Posts
200mmr difference is nothing because it's in the variance threshold of a player.
Plus if that's your argument I could say ByuN beating Elazer doesn't count for terran because it's Blizzcon + GSL champ against a random top foreigner.
Same for Leenock because he can't even beat Elazer so it doesn't count...
See? Pretty stupid right?
That's why nitpicking is tricky, it's a headache to search for relevant thresholds.
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On April 20 2018 15:47 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 08:33 Solar424 wrote:On April 20 2018 08:05 Boggyb wrote:On April 20 2018 07:58 DieuCure wrote:It's good that they admit that the TV is in a horrible posture. And that they took into account the "just play like Maru" meme. On the other hand they will probably nerf the raven fast enough since the only ZvT won will be those of Dark and Solar in Ro32. If PatchZerglett loses to the GumiGod and fails to get out of the group, they'll probably delete ghosts and ravens then force Afreeka to replay the group. Off topic, but would it physically pain you to say anything positive about a non-Korean player? It feels like 95% of your posts on here are just shitting on foreigners, saying their accomplishments don't count and that only Koreans should be allowed to play SC2. To be honest, as a terran player it's super frustrating to only see foreign zergs (and to a lesser extent, protoss) be successful against koreans. Balance asides, the other races being easier mechanically doesn't help. edit (point is that you quickly want to shit on some foreigners after some time)
The terran bias is strong in this one.
Although I agree that seeing almost only foreigners who play zerg be able to match the koreans is frustrating, in what way is it "To a lesser extent, protoss" ?
Cuz the only non-zerg foreigners who have been able to take maps or series against koreans recently iirc are Special and uThermal.. Since Neeb's form went down a bit, I haven't seen any foreign Protoss do anything against koreans.
Sorry for the off-topic post.
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Ravens are fine as they are but maybe they are bit too supply effecient. Maybe increase the Raven supply to 3.
Stronger liberators would just make tanks extinct again.
Making widow mines invisible after shooting when the widow mine uppgrade have been researched would help Terran in the midgame without making mines too strong early game.
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On April 20 2018 04:18 Nakajin wrote:
It might be a terrible idea, but why not come back to the old widow mine to fix TvP? It would make mine drop a lot more viable and would make terran early-mid game stronger by forcing P to have detection. And beeing able to build 10 mine a minute isn't that good for terran since you don't want that many mines anyway and your factory isn't that usefull for anything else in the early game.
TvZ would not be to broken by it I think since Ling-Bane-Hydra usually is the kind of army who clean anything up or get destroyed it dosen't dance arround like Ling-Bane-Muta. And tanks are better against it anyway.
They can do any changes they want, BUT NOT THIS ONE.
Widow mine is the worst designed unit in the game (swarm host might be close though), in the current version it is at least useful in certain situation but not stupidly frustrating and randomly game ending.
One of the best changes ever besides the MSC removal, was the widow mine change.
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France12927 Posts
On April 20 2018 17:20 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 15:47 Poopi wrote:On April 20 2018 08:33 Solar424 wrote:On April 20 2018 08:05 Boggyb wrote:On April 20 2018 07:58 DieuCure wrote:It's good that they admit that the TV is in a horrible posture. And that they took into account the "just play like Maru" meme. On the other hand they will probably nerf the raven fast enough since the only ZvT won will be those of Dark and Solar in Ro32. If PatchZerglett loses to the GumiGod and fails to get out of the group, they'll probably delete ghosts and ravens then force Afreeka to replay the group. Off topic, but would it physically pain you to say anything positive about a non-Korean player? It feels like 95% of your posts on here are just shitting on foreigners, saying their accomplishments don't count and that only Koreans should be allowed to play SC2. To be honest, as a terran player it's super frustrating to only see foreign zergs (and to a lesser extent, protoss) be successful against koreans. Balance asides, the other races being easier mechanically doesn't help. edit (point is that you quickly want to shit on some foreigners after some time) The terran bias is strong in this one. Although I agree that seeing almost only foreigners who play zerg be able to match the koreans is frustrating, in what way is it "To a lesser extent, protoss" ? Cuz the only non-zerg foreigners who have been able to take maps or series against koreans recently iirc are Special and uThermal.. Since Neeb's form went down a bit, I haven't seen any foreign Protoss do anything against koreans. Sorry for the off-topic post.
http://aligulac.com/players/4495/results/?after=&before=&event=&race=ptzr&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=
A lot of victories here.
ShoWTimE had more troubles I admit, but still.
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Day9 always said Protoss is the weakest race. Still says that.
For me SC2 is more balanced than ever right now. Terran is just harder to play.
Ravens should be nerfed and Blizzard must buff both BCs and Vikings somehow.
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On April 20 2018 16:09 Tyrhanius wrote:
If the lategame is balanced (50% winrates) you have to find at least few games where Zerg wins (with equal skill, not a huge lead etc...).
If not, it's the proof it's imbalanced.
Feel free to upload theses games, i would be glad to learn how to defeat mass raven.
Spot on. And no, Dark winning against Maru after a failed proxy rax doesn't really count.
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Buff the liberator? Hummm...no!
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I do feel for Blizzard, it seems nearly impossible to have all three races perfectly balanced. Even now TvZ seems fine, TvP does not. Any change to TvP will also affect TvZ... Arghh
Difficult choices...
I agree with their assessment that TvP require works though, as a Terran players it seems awfully P favored ( though I blame iton my skill)
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On April 20 2018 16:09 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 07:15 Athenau wrote:On April 20 2018 05:18 Tyrhanius wrote:Win rates, overall, slightly favor Zerg in this matchup so we want to be cautious about changes here. We want to focus more on Terran’s mid-game power that scales into the late game. Increasing options for a race in the mid game can also improve their late game through having greater control over pacing of the game. Mid-game options can also encourage more counterplay, as options in the late game usually trend towards closing out the match rather than providing control over transitioning. Ongoing results from GSL and WCS will better inform our decisions, and we do have to be careful overall, as this matchup seems to be trending in a good direction.
I have no idea which games bliz look to say "Zerg slightly favored" ? Serral vs Terran foreigner lol ? Aligulac winrate : 50.3% for T this code S : 80% for T last GSL : 58% for T WESG : 52% for for T so you just have GSL super tournament : with 46% for T... because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive... but innovation beat rogue, maru beat soo, and dark avoid maru thx to classic. Every zerg have experienced the mass raven camping in ladder, 70% of my games vs T are like that, Terran with passive play little harass, mass tanks so you can't attack and they look for lategame with mass raven... We have seen it on GSL, on challenger, on TvZ or on TvT. Late game is so bad balanced in this game since the beginning. Only mid-game is good in this game, the early is quite boring but ok, the lategame is just super lame. Here are the TvZ winrates you conveniently omitted: Aligulac for the last two complete periods: http://aligulac.com/periods/211/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.29%http://aligulac.com/periods/212/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.78%Last GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/77372-GSL-2018/ 47.39%This GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80696-GSL-2018-Season-2/ 47.52%GSL Super Tournament: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80577-GSL-2018-Super-Tournament-/#1/ 48.68%Also, LOL at 80% for "this code S". Yeah, those 5 games are super representative. What's next, claiming Terran has a 100% winrate when they win the first game of a set? I know i wasn't saying look 80% winrates, Terran is imba. I was saying where the tendancy where Z is favored ? I know it's a small sample of games, but at least there are relevant because it's the best players of the world fighting each over. You include qualifiers which is totally irrelevant. Do you take games of diamond vs master to take about balance ? "Look the diamond terran lost vs the master Zerg, it's imba !" No, i don't think so. So why do you include some qualifiers where guys who have some 200 MMR difference and sometimes more are fighting ? The winrates of theses games means nothing at all. Qualifiers always shows : the best and well known players usually qualify, the only thing interesting is if some top players meet each other in the qualifier. Also taking everygames is stupid, if the question is "does ravens are imba vs Z", why taking account of non-raven games ? If you want to answer the question, you need : equal level progamers fighting, at best the best progamers, only lategame games where someone hasn't a huge lead at the beginning. And if you do, i bet the winrates for T will be some 80-90% maybe more. As it's hard to find some games like that, we can reason by the absurd. If the lategame is balanced (50% winrates) you have to find at least few games where Zerg wins (with equal skill, not a huge lead etc...). If not, it's the proof it's imbalanced. Feel free to upload theses games, i would be glad to learn how to defeat mass raven.
Ah yes, qualifiers are irrelevant, yet you cite Aligulac that includes every game played. But not _all_ of Aligulac, just the one incomplete period that happens to show what you want. Oh, and only games with Ravens matter? Then why are you including winrates that include a bunch of games without Ravens? And of course, the icing on your cake is your incredibly dishonest "80%" number based on a sample of five games played between three players, meanwhile you discount the super tournament results because "because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive... but innovation beat rogue, maru beat soo, and dark avoid maru thx to classic", which isn't even an argument. So it's "80% winrate" instead of "Byun beats Leenock and Elazer" but when it comes to an entire tournament that doesn't fit your narrative, then it's "because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive" not "48% winrate". Right.
I knew you were going to double-down on your disingenuous and dumb cherry-picking, but the heroic contortions you're resorting to somehow justify what you wrote are...something else.
I'm not even going to get into your "lategame imba" diversion. That was never Blizzard's assertion, your transparent attempt to move the goalposts aside. I will, however, note the hypocrisy of complaining about the lategame when apparently it was fine for the entirety of LotV for zerg to camp to their cancerous hive deathball, but as soon as things don't look favorable it's now an urgent problem, despite winrates saying otherwise.
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i'm suprised they acutally understand high level starcraft to such a good extend, couldve been written by an acual gm player :O
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I would suggest a whole late game review for all matchups, mass air/spellcaster fiesta is just lame imo, but i know that the community only cares about winrates, not gameplay.
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EPT
