EPTCommunity Update - April 19 - Page 3
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On April 20 2018 05:45 Kalera wrote: And conversely why should they care that some random TL poster doesn't like their tournaments when the majority of the community seems to be happy with it? So some players feel left out, per your logic, maybe they should "negotiate with tournament hosts" to get included in the next invitational then. They don't expect the players to fund the tournaments, it's the viewers than do, so your earlier argument about the poor players watching is a strawman to begin with. No one is forcing anyone to support an invitational that doesn't want to. They exist purely because there is a demand for it. Or you know, the TOs/producers could just stop milking the community and do what real business owners/producers do. Outside of sc2 esports, noone else in the entertainment industry is expecting or even suggesting fans to finance events lol. There is something very wrong with this picture. Not only are the TOs/TPs saying "screw you" to everyone not invited but they are suggesting to you it's your duty to finance their events so that they can make money LOL. This is called entitlement. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:14 xTJx wrote: Zerg late game vs mech is basicaly vipers suiciding in atempt to get good blinding clouds, literaly 1 chance to win, very stupid imo. yeah they really should nerf blinding cloud, makes zerg way too strong vs mech | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 20 2018 05:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I have no idea which games bliz look to say "Zerg slightly favored" ? Serral vs Terran foreigner lol ? Aligulac winrate : 50.3% for T this code S : 80% for T last GSL : 58% for T WESG : 52% for for T so you just have GSL super tournament : with 46% for T... because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive... but innovation beat rogue, maru beat soo, and dark avoid maru thx to classic. Every zerg have experienced the mass raven camping in ladder, 70% of my games vs T are like that, Terran with passive play little harass, mass tanks so you can't attack and they look for lategame with mass raven... We have seen it on GSL, on challenger, on TvZ or on TvT. Late game is so bad balanced in this game since the beginning. Only mid-game is good in this game, the early is quite boring but ok, the lategame is just super lame. You have partial information on the winrate statistics, gained via third-party sources like Aligulac. Blizzard has full information on winrate statistics, gained via records of every SC2 game people play. If Blizzard says one thing and you say another, I'm gonna have to trust Blizzard on this one. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On April 20 2018 05:18 ReachTheSky wrote: Starcraft is about playing, not about money. Stop using the same old "but we won't make any money" excuse. Why on earth would I want to care about a caster's/event's bottom line when they exclude the entire community minus a handful of players? Because I would rather see Rifkin invite korean players so he can get 3-4k viewers instead of waching avilo vs the riddler. And because I want Rifkin to pay his rent so he can continue to make tournaments. I don't know about you but in the world I live it's mostly if not all about the money. To each his own I guess. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:17 ReachTheSky wrote: Or you know, the TOs/producers could just stop milking the community and do what real business owners/producers do. Outside of sc2 esports, noone else in the entertainment industry is expecting or even suggesting fans to finance events lol. There is something very wrong with this picture. Not only are the TOs/TPs saying "screw you" to everyone not invited but they are suggesting to you it's your duty to finance their events so that they can make money LOL. It's pretty low. Directly fan financed movies are a thing. Indirectly, ticket sales finance movies. Lots of webcomics are fan financed via patreon and things like that. Pretty much all sports are fan financed either directly via ticket sales/donations or indirectly (ESPN has money to pay for deals because they suck $100+ from each person with the channel per year) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:19 pvsnp wrote: You have partial information on the winrate statistics, gained via third-party sources like Aligulac. Blizzard has full information on winrate statistics, gained via records of every SC2 game people play. If Blizzard says one thing and you say another, I'm gonna have to trust Blizzard on this one. Well tbf the mass sc2 games played shouldn't mean as much (balance-wise) as the few on the elite level. That being said terran really isn't dominating right now (regardless of what people claiming ravens are unbeatable seem to believe). Maru is the only terran who's actually looking unbeatable. ByuN even struggled to beat Elazer with mass raven ffs, and Elazer's weakest areas are ZvT and lategame. | ||
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Kalera
United States338 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:17 ReachTheSky wrote: Or you know, the TOs/producers could just stop milking the community and do what real business owners/producers do. Outside of sc2 esports, noone else in the entertainment industry is expecting or even suggesting fans to finance events lol. There is something very wrong with this picture. Not only are the TOs/TPs saying "screw you" to everyone not invited but they are suggesting to you it's your duty to finance their events so that they can make money LOL. This is called entitlement. Er, what exactly are ticket sales and subscriptions then, if not fans supporting entertainment? Pay-per-view fights? Televised sports have advertisers, but are also financed by cable TV subscriptions. Musicians survive on song sales and royalties from music services, all of which come from fans. And frankly, its disingenuous to compare that kind of industry to SC2 community events in the first place. Local events or entertainers frequently survive on 'donations' the world over. Who exactly is the entitled one here I wonder. Consumers speak with their wallets. They don't need you speaking for them. I'm pretty sure no one is forcing or blackmailing me into supporting SC2 events I like. In any case, I'm going to stop here because there's no evidently no point in discussing this with you any further. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:26 Fango wrote: Well tbf the mass sc2 games played shouldn't mean as much (balance-wise) as the few on the elite level. That being said terran really isn't dominating right now (regardless of what people claiming ravens are unbeatable seem to believe). Maru is the only terran who's actually looking unbeatable. ByuN even struggled to beat Elazer with mass raven ffs, and Elazer's weakest areas are ZvT and lategame. I was thinking more of quality than quantity. Blizzard, like any tech company worthy of the name, presumably collects any number of metrics on every game played, not just the raw winrate like aligulac does. Stuff like time elapsed, supply counts, etc, all mean a lot in terms of balance and what exactly to balance. Point being, it's a pretty safe assumption that Blizzard is better informed about balance than some random forum whiner. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
You can't keep something in the game that is broken (yes it is) just for the sake of maintaining an illusion of balance. If you think Terran needs help, make the anti-armor change as you proposed earlier and buff something else, and by that not just a +10 viking HP but something substantial. Now, to think that Terran needs help in PvT is one thing, but to even consider a Liberator buff to be that change is beyond crazy.. I'm not even willing to argument about it.. This is the worst terran unit you could ever buff... alongside the marine. Please, consider something else, for the sake of your player base that doesnt play terran. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:51 Snarosc wrote: Not wanting to fix the raven anti-armor missile just because Terran isn't doing that well is absolute nonsense. You can't keep something in the game that is broken (yes it is) How is it broken? It doesn't serve the purpose that Blizzard intended when they came up with the ability, but that doesn't make it broken. It serves what Terran actually needs in late game which is usable splash against Zerg hordes. | ||
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IArako
Germany195 Posts
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MrWayne
219 Posts
The Raven nerf will probably go through in the next patch and i'm fine with it, TvZ lategame is realy stale because of it right now. Maybe they give the AAM 10 flat splash dmg insted of 5, little bit sugar for the cry babys. They need to buff the Widow Mine in some way. In TvP, every Factory unit is either useless or has a very narrow time window to be effectiv. Reducing the WM cost to 50min / 25 gas would make transitions easier, buffing the splash dmg vs shields would be also something to consider. +10 hp for the viking is also a nice little buff, of course +15 hp or an extra speed buff wouldn't hurt either. I'm not shure about the liberator, it's allready a powerfull unit but maybe they kann give him +5 dmg so he can 2 shot stalker with +1 airattack? | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 20 2018 06:43 pvsnp wrote: I was thinking more of quality than quantity. Blizzard, like any tech company worthy of the name, presumably collects any number of metrics on every game played, not just the raw winrate like aligulac does. Stuff like time elapsed, supply counts, etc, all mean a lot in terms of balance and what exactly to balance. Point being, it's a pretty safe assumption that Blizzard is better informed about balance than some random forum whiner. Best quality you can find is stats from tournaments, there are no secret stats or things blizzard knows better than players, else they would have skipped the broodlords infestors area, mass SH, mass reapers, mass blink, and now mass raven, but no it takes age before they finally realize it should be fixed. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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Athenau
569 Posts
On April 20 2018 05:18 Tyrhanius wrote: I have no idea which games bliz look to say "Zerg slightly favored" ? Serral vs Terran foreigner lol ? Aligulac winrate : 50.3% for T this code S : 80% for T last GSL : 58% for T WESG : 52% for for T so you just have GSL super tournament : with 46% for T... because solar beat gumiho and dark beat alive... but innovation beat rogue, maru beat soo, and dark avoid maru thx to classic. Every zerg have experienced the mass raven camping in ladder, 70% of my games vs T are like that, Terran with passive play little harass, mass tanks so you can't attack and they look for lategame with mass raven... We have seen it on GSL, on challenger, on TvZ or on TvT. Late game is so bad balanced in this game since the beginning. Only mid-game is good in this game, the early is quite boring but ok, the lategame is just super lame. Here are the TvZ winrates you conveniently omitted: Aligulac for the last two complete periods: http://aligulac.com/periods/211/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.29% http://aligulac.com/periods/212/?sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all 46.78% Last GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/77372-GSL-2018/ 47.39% This GSL including qualifiers: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80696-GSL-2018-Season-2/ 47.52% GSL Super Tournament: http://aligulac.com/results/events/80577-GSL-2018-Super-Tournament-/#1/ 48.68% Also, LOL at 80% for "this code S". Yeah, those 5 games are super representative. What's next, claiming Terran has a 100% winrate when they win the first game of a set? | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States677 Posts
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gtbex
Poland39 Posts
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EzioAs
235 Posts
On April 20 2018 04:18 Nakajin wrote: It might be a terrible idea, but why not come back to the old widow mine to fix TvP? It would make mine drop a lot more viable and would make terran early-mid game stronger by forcing P to have detection. And beeing able to build 10 mine a minute isn't that good for terran since you don't want that many mines anyway and your factory isn't that usefull for anything else in the early game. TvZ would not be to broken by it I think since Ling-Bane-Hydra usually is the kind of army who clean anything up or get destroyed it dosen't dance arround like Ling-Bane-Muta. And tanks are better against it anyway. I actually kinda agree with this. I think a slight damage nerf to Raven would be good cause then it'll probably equalize all the Terran MU, but I always thought the widow mine nerf since 4.0 was kinda too much. Course, since Protoss no longer have a Mothership Core and Photon Overcharge, it does make defending against Mine Drops a bit much but increasing the recharge time might make up for it. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Sighs. a) ravens are not an issue - if they are unwilling to mention carrier+HT or viper/brood/spore/infestor in the same paragraph, then they should not be speaking from their anti-terran bias as they always do. Tired of it for years. "Balance team" is more of a "how do we nerf Terran from winning" team at this point. The balance team should never mention anything raven related without mentioning swarmhost/viper/infestor/carrier in the same sentence. They nerf one, have to nerf all the others, or it's intrinsically an unfair game late game. Why is it perfectly fine for Zerg to get an invulnerable late game army with no counter from Terran? And why is it ok for Protoss to mass almost purely carrier with HT/archon underneath? But it's not OK that Terran has some counter to these things? Raven is the only counter, and even then it's not a good counter unless you have 20 of them on full energy. b) TvP has been imbalanced in Protoss favor for months, almost over a year now. Triple nexus / chrono / shield batteries / widow mine nerf puts toss too far ahead. Most games Protoss will have 3rd nexus, be invulnerable to any form of harrassment, and have 10 gateway + double forge + stargate + twilight + charge + blink + robo and the Terran player's 3rd CC is half way completed while on 3 rax.... wait what???????????????????????????????????? This is not acceptable for a live version of a game to have something that ridiculous. The match-up needs adjusting. A huge issue was the arbitrary nerf to widow mines being detectable. This made it so Protoss now does not need to fear mine drops, and shield battery makes banshees bad as well. The widow mine nerf + all the other things means Protoss can open 3 nexus + twilight with zero detection, and never be afraid of dying or taking damage from mines/banshees. This is HUGE. They don't need to invest into a robo, an observer, an oracle, a stargate...all of that money goes for a 3rd nexus. Widow mine needs a revert, and shield batteries should not be able to perma heal through banshee harrass. Why is it OK for an auto-cast building to allow probes to be invincible versus a banshee? The entire Terran's build order is dedicated to getting the banshee and cloak out and it's completely nullified by a 100 mineral building that requires zero attention? TvP is terribly balanced atm, for the above reasons. Why were none of the mentioned or known about by professional balance developers? Honestly, Terran late game is not that bad if it were like HOTS and both players are on an even economy, equal base count, about equivalent production and upgrades. But currently in LOTV is it fair when Protoss had unattackable 3 base, still can counter-harrass you with a prism on the map, and then also has 10 gateways double forge + all tech up versus Terran with a half finished 3rd CC and 3 barracks with just the 4th and 5th barracks coming online? Yeh, that's the definition of something utterly wrong. | ||
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