EPTswitch to anything, as Zerg's macro will then streamroll the T.
Community Update - April 19 - Page 10
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
switch to anything, as Zerg's macro will then streamroll the T. | ||
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
back when the major lotv gameplay changes were implamented, infestors got to cast fungal while borrowed. to balance that, fungal functionality changed from root to 75% slow, and it got 0.5 radius buff as well (to 2.5). the new borrowed fungal proved to be too much to deal with and was reverted back. the radius buff was addressed as well and changed to 2.25, a 26.5625% area buff from the original radius of 2. BUT, the functionality remained as a slow effect. the question is, does 0.25 radius buff enough to counter the change in fungal functionality? in my honest opinion the answer is no. the solution is quite simple: back in the days, fungal was changed from instant effect to a projectile. that was done in order to deal with the BL+infestor meta (along with a nerf to it's +10 dmg to armor). now that it only slows instead of roots fungal can probably be reverted back to be an instant spell. it shouldn't bring back the BW+infestor meta and in any case both terran and protoss got new tools to deal with it. so, what do you guys think? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 26 2018 09:39 batatm wrote: i will warn in advance, this IS a rant, about the nerf to infestors. back when the major lotv gameplay changes were implamented, infestors got to cast fungal while borrowed. to balance that, fungal functionality changed from root to 75% slow, and it got 0.5 radius buff as well (to 2.5). the new borrowed fungal proved to be too much to deal with and was reverted back. the radius buff was addressed as well and changed to 2.25, a 26.5625% area buff from the original radius of 2. BUT, the functionality remained as a slow effect. the question is, does 0.25 radius buff enough to counter the change in fungal functionality? in my honest opinion the answer is no. the solution is quite simple: back in the days, fungal was changed from instant effect to a projectile. that was done in order to deal with the BL+infestor meta (along with a nerf to it's +10 dmg to armor). now that it only slows instead of roots fungal can probably be reverted back to be an instant spell. it shouldn't bring back the BW+infestor meta and in any case both terran and protoss got new tools to deal with it. so, what do you guys think? Hell to the fucking no. Instant fungal was pure cancer. | ||
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
i intended to replace it with the last option but accidently left both of em :$ | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Small advantages/disadvantages translate too radically into later stages of the game. That narrows down ways to play the game legitimately. But more importantly, it kills design and balance options for game developers in a large fashion and eventually makes it impossible to create a satisfactory balance state from where you do not have the urge to continue to develop it further alot - all the time. You see that from how big of an impact small changes have. This is one of the reasons players go back to BW. There it is possible to come back from situations, where you could never come back from in SC2, no matter how creative or unpredicting you play - at all levels of play. In SC2 these situations we see in ~80% of games. A player gets the advantage and can rely on that he can only lose to a counter that is more or less all-inish. So both players prepare for exactly that, the one with the advantage to hold the (semi) all-in and the one with the disadvantage to execute the (semi) all-in. No matter what and how much you change, it only changes the when and where, not the if. Furthermore these situations turn out to always be the same of their kind over a large amount of games at a certain state of balance (hence suggestion of rotating balance like Riot does), which is unpleasent for players and watchers at the same time. They see that they, their opponent or one of the players they watch are on that timer to get something done or already have lost the game. This is the biggest problem of current SC2, well it actually has been since the start. Most other problems derive from that. Thoughts on some of the other topics mentioned: - Free units People tend to forget that terran has inverse free units due to heal. It always applies when small number of units fight against each other, which happens at a) early stages of the game (early bio attack can barely be damaged by only queens and zerglings, only surround + full kill/force retreat is possible). b) at the end of larger army fights (4 marauders + 3 marines + 8 medivacs kite down the survival of the protoss, consisting of few zealots and 2 sentries). c) at drop scenarios (3 marines between 3 mineral blocks and a building kill 10+ incoming zerglings without losing a single one). results i) in equal army value scenario terran loses much less units than he should ii) in advantageous army value scenario (for terran) the terran units don't lose any noteworthy amount at all vs. what is thrown at it ... which both result into free units for the terran. As they become free units after the battle has taken place and not before the fight (such as broodlings or locusts), let me introduce the branding of inverse free units for that. - Bring old units back I really wonder at this point, why this is being brought up, even by members of this board, who actually should know better. But I see that they still just try to advocat getting an edge for their race at all costs mostly in opposite of helping the game to increase in quality. Old marauder (play marine/marauder vs no matter what and when in TvZ with only few adaptions needed, one composition all game long), old widow mines (having cheap units that take opponent 5x as much time and effort to deal with, instant game enders), old instant fungal (stupid lock down of larger army sizes to make them unmicroable and prepare them for game ending surrounds or banelings, etc.), etc. is all bullshit that the game has advanced from, luckily. - Zergs haven't learned yet to utilize their offensive capabilites Can only come from someone who has never really played or understood zerg. The nature of this race is the game of drones vs. fighting units. Whenever you plan to attack, you usually cut drones in order to maximize army size. Why? Cause you cannot retreat. Only mutalisks, zerglings and banelings can retreat (hence it was played for years in TvZ). Stimpack, chargelots, blink stalkers, adepts, medivac boost + drop on evacuating units prevent retreating. When you attack and get overwhelmed, usually nothing survives (TvZ terran = stim back, boost out, PvZ protoss = warp back, blink back, other units can only be cought by lings, speed roaches or mutas off creep). Hence when you plan to attack, you try to maximize your chances in the fight (lets call it +ev fight) at the cost of your eco (-ev eco). The problem with that is, that you always have to pay the eco before and then have to make up for it in the fight. It is a high risk that is barely worth it ever at equal standing scenarios, hence zerg can barely be played efficently offensively when opponents are aware of your strategies (compare bly). The player who was capable of doing it efficiently is Life. He constantly traded +ev fight for -ev eco and came out +ev total after all. This is why he was so very special. In that sense you might have got a point when you meant every player should become Life, but still it is actually much more safe to play the +ev eco variant all the time and only change that when you are forced to (disadvantage or high enough advantage so that you can compensate for some losses or be able to close the game). Things I read and support to try and work with: - hydra too versatile (no alternative right now tho) - ghost too rounded unit (same?) - free conc. shells for rauders (worth a try) Some more thoughts: - creep speed advantage I still think it should be looked into. On creep might be little too fast, off creep might be little too slow (not zerglings probably). I am not sure of that tho, but worth looking into and testing. - health boost for bio from medivac instead of heal Lets say bio unit gets +20hp from the beam of the medivac instead of heal. Could be really fun and shake things up a bit while removing the inverse free unit mechanic, which has much heavier weight than real free units after host nerf/figure out and broodlords being a pretty late, slow and situational unit. Getting that implemented would make it alot easier to balance around it than heal, which creates thoses stupid situations explained above which bring disorder to balance. Worth looking into imo, not sure if it can hold what it promises. Had some more points, but I guess this is enough for one post. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 26 2018 11:53 LSN wrote: This is one of the reasons players go back to BW. There it is possible to come back from situations, where you could never come back from in SC2, no matter how creative or unpredicting you play - at all levels of play. In SC2 these situations we see in ~80% of games. A player gets the advantage and can rely on that he can only lose to a counter that is more or less all-inish. So both players prepare for exactly that, the one with the advantage to hold the (semi) all-in and the one with the disadvantage to execute the (semi) all-in. No matter what and how much you change, it only changes the when and where, not the if. Furthermore these situations turn out to always be the same of their kind over a large amount of games at a certain state of balance (hence suggestion of rotating balance like Riot does), which is unpleasent for players and watchers at the same time. They see that they, their opponent or one of the players they watch are on that timer to get something done or already have lost the game. This is the biggest problem of current SC2, well it actually has been since the start. Most other problems derive from that. That simply just isnt true, Terran's racial mechanics are all about comeback / recovering from taking damage (mules, drops, repairs, liftoffs etc). Nowadays you mainly see it just in TvZ (Maru played a macro game from being down 40 scvs for a good 10 minutes and won), because Protosses seem to roll over terrans once they get ahead, but that definitely hasnt always been the case. Protoss can also come back against terrans as well if it gets to the mid/lategame aoe units or the ground upgrades kick in. Zergs dont have real comeback mechanics, in BW their comeback mechanics was mainly the Defiler, and not much else. Here you could make the case for Vipers against tank heavy mech, but even that doesnt really work if you re considerably behind in eco. In PvZ protoss' comeback mechanics are turtle and max out, which worked very well, and still does, albeit very good zergs beat that with mass spore+ infestor | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On April 25 2018 22:09 RaiZ wrote: The original post emphasized the frustration's gameplay, not the balance. You don't seem to find the difference between fun and balance. It doesn't matter if you can overcome it, it's still frustrating to play against it. It doesn't matter if I can win against this protoss a bazillion time, if there's still something that makes it not fun to play against, then you can be sure I won't be playing this game any longer. Did it ever cross your mind that there are people who understand and still dislike it ? The fact that you think they are fine is only your opinion. Do us a favor and don't compare those 2 games. The remastered version is just a trap. It's basically bw but still with the same pathing problem, limited unit selection, no queens, no chronos, no medivacs, nothing from sc2. Mechanically-wise, sc2 is simply far better than bw. That's exactly why I couldn't get back to bw anymore. The overall gameplay is much worse in bw than it is in sc2. FFs are just a minor nuisance compared to what bw has. But it doesn't mean sc2 is frustrating to play at times (which mostly comes from protoss units). I thought i got myself clear in my post but i'll try one more time. People find everything they don't understand/something's dragging them out of comfort zone "frustrating". A lost a game - frustrating!, I got to get up early - frustrating!, I need to go to a shop to get something to eat - frustrating as fck! Ofc im exaggerating (just a bit) but how do i distinguish these from "real" (as you insist) frustration? And does it even exist? Or its just an excuse for not being able to overcome a challenge? You said "it's only your opinion". But i said the same thing in post: Having so called gimmicks in game and liking them or not is just a matter of preference. Yes, my opinion is that these mechanics are completely fine. At least they are not something hurting the gameplay. Some people dislike them, but it just means: 1) they are just trying to get an excuse for losing and will always whine about everything (and i witness dozens of examples of such behavior every day, in this regard i see no difference between HiroshiOne and a random LoL player blaming his team after gettin 0/16/3 in unranked). or/and 2) SC2 just doesnt suit them. Yes, that's life. The game wont change, its whole gameplay is based on these mechanics (and i personally see it in a positive way). And i brought up BW as an example only for this kind of people for them to try a very similar game w/o these "frustrating" gimmicks. But you reject it as well. Well, yes, i can partly undestand you PoV. SC2 is frustrating, BW is old and has other frustrating stuff like selection limits/pathing, no sarcasm. But. What do you want from an RTS then? Perfect pathing and and interface w/o any "frustration"? No random/volatile damage bursts/"control" abilities? What it would look like? A click vs A click? Again, i'm not being sarcastic btw. I would like to be proven wrong. But for some reason, there is no such game onthe market/in development. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On April 26 2018 15:48 insitelol wrote: I thought i got myself clear in my post but i'll try one more time. People find everything they don't understand/something's dragging them out of comfort zone "frustrating". A lost a game - frustrating!, I got to get up early - frustrating!, I need to go to a shop to get something to eat - frustrating as fck! Ofc im exaggerating (just a bit) but how do i distinguish these from "real" (as you insist) frustration? And does it even exist? Or its just an excuse for not being able to overcome a challenge? You said "it's only your opinion". But i said the same thing in post: Having so called gimmicks in game and liking them or not is just a matter of preference. Yes, my opinion is that these mechanics are completely fine. At least they are not something hurting the gameplay. Some people dislike them, but it just means: 1) they are just trying to get an excuse for losing and will always whine about everything (and i witness dozens of examples of such behavior every day, in this regard i see no difference between HiroshiOne and a random LoL player blaming his team after gettin 0/16/3 in unranked). or/and 2) SC2 just doesnt suit them. Yes, that's life. The game wont change, its whole gameplay is based on these mechanics (and i personally see it in a positive way). And i brought up BW as an example only for this kind of people for them to try a very similar game w/o these "frustrating" gimmicks. But you reject it as well. Well, yes, i can partly undestand you PoV. SC2 is frustrating, BW is old and has other frustrating stuff like selection limits/pathing, no sarcasm. But. What do you want from an RTS then? Perfect pathing and and interface w/o any "frustration"? No random/volatile damage bursts/"control" abilities? What it would look like? A click vs A click? Again, i'm not being sarcastic btw. I would like to be proven wrong. But for some reason, there is no such game onthe market/in development. If they were to remake Red Alert Three with a better ladder system and rebooted servers I would play that game till the cows come home. It was easy to pick up compared to sc2 or BW was fast paced and the only highly problematic stratagies tended to be allins that were to strong. Evrey unit had an ability that let you outplay your opponent in a pinch. Valuable objectives out on the map made the fight for map control valuable in all matches not just for its scouting value but for more emediate and tangible benefits like income and good defensive locations. Air was strong but more skillful more counterable and less slow and cancerous. | ||
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Caelum93
62 Posts
On April 26 2018 09:51 pvsnp wrote: Hell to the fucking no. Instant fungal was pure cancer. then give us the old snipe dmg+old emp radius and we are fine. If you want to change something I would change a bit how fast is the creep disappearing when you kill the tumors.Because you scan kill the tumors and in the time say can set another tumor and the creep keep there. Maybe I would reduce the map overview of non active tumors so you cannot see everything but the most part. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On April 26 2018 11:53 LSN wrote: SC2 still suffers most from being too unforgiving, probably cause it is too fast paced (eco/tech/battles/unit movent/attacks per second). Small advantages/disadvantages translate too radically into later stages of the game. That narrows down ways to play the game legitimately. But more importantly, it kills design and balance options for game developers in a large fashion and eventually makes it impossible to create a satisfactory balance state from where you do not have the urge to continue to develop it further alot - all the time. You see that from how big of an impact small changes have. This is one of the reasons players go back to BW. There it is possible to come back from situations, where you could never come back from in SC2, no matter how creative or unpredicting you play - at all levels of play. In SC2 these situations we see in ~80% of games. A player gets the advantage and can rely on that he can only lose to a counter that is more or less all-inish. So both players prepare for exactly that, the one with the advantage to hold the (semi) all-in and the one with the disadvantage to execute the (semi) all-in. No matter what and how much you change, it only changes the when and where, not the if. Furthermore these situations turn out to always be the same of their kind over a large amount of games at a certain state of balance (hence suggestion of rotating balance like Riot does), which is unpleasent for players and watchers at the same time. They see that they, their opponent or one of the players they watch are on that timer to get something done or already have lost the game. This is the biggest problem of current SC2, well it actually has been since the start. Most other problems derive from that. Thoughts on some of the other topics mentioned: - Free units People tend to forget that terran has inverse free units due to heal. It always applies when small number of units fight against each other, which happens at a) early stages of the game (early bio attack can barely be damaged by only queens and zerglings, only surround + full kill/force retreat is possible). b) at the end of larger army fights (4 marauders + 3 marines + 8 medivacs kite down the survival of the protoss, consisting of few zealots and 2 sentries). c) at drop scenarios (3 marines between 3 mineral blocks and a building kill 10+ incoming zerglings without losing a single one). results i) in equal army value scenario terran loses much less units than he should ii) in advantageous army value scenario (for terran) the terran units don't lose any noteworthy amount at all vs. what is thrown at it ... which both result into free units for the terran. As they become free units after the battle has taken place and not before the fight (such as broodlings or locusts), let me introduce the branding of inverse free units for that. - Bring old units back I really wonder at this point, why this is being brought up, even by members of this board, who actually should know better. But I see that they still just try to advocat getting an edge for their race at all costs mostly in opposite of helping the game to increase in quality. Old marauder (play marine/marauder vs no matter what and when in TvZ with only few adaptions needed, one composition all game long), old widow mines (having cheap units that take opponent 5x as much time and effort to deal with, instant game enders), old instant fungal (stupid lock down of larger army sizes to make them unmicroable and prepare them for game ending surrounds or banelings, etc.), etc. is all bullshit that the game has advanced from, luckily. - Zergs haven't learned yet to utilize their offensive capabilites Can only come from someone who has never really played or understood zerg. The nature of this race is the game of drones vs. fighting units. Whenever you plan to attack, you usually cut drones in order to maximize army size. Why? Cause you cannot retreat. Only mutalisks, zerglings and banelings can retreat (hence it was played for years in TvZ). Stimpack, chargelots, blink stalkers, adepts, medivac boost + drop on evacuating units prevent retreating. When you attack and get overwhelmed, usually nothing survives (TvZ terran = stim back, boost out, PvZ protoss = warp back, blink back, other units can only be cought by lings, speed roaches or mutas off creep). Hence when you plan to attack, you try to maximize your chances in the fight (lets call it +ev fight) at the cost of your eco (-ev eco). The problem with that is, that you always have to pay the eco before and then have to make up for it in the fight. It is a high risk that is barely worth it ever at equal standing scenarios, hence zerg can barely be played efficently offensively when opponents are aware of your strategies (compare bly). The player who was capable of doing it efficiently is Life. He constantly traded +ev fight for -ev eco and came out +ev total after all. This is why he was so very special. In that sense you might have got a point when you meant every player should become Life, but still it is actually much more safe to play the +ev eco variant all the time and only change that when you are forced to (disadvantage or high enough advantage so that you can compensate for some losses or be able to close the game). Things I read and support to try and work with: - hydra too versatile (no alternative right now tho) - ghost too rounded unit (same?) - free conc. shells for rauders (worth a try) Some more thoughts: - creep speed advantage I still think it should be looked into. On creep might be little too fast, off creep might be little too slow (not zerglings probably). I am not sure of that tho, but worth looking into and testing. - health boost for bio from medivac instead of heal Lets say bio unit gets +20hp from the beam of the medivac instead of heal. Could be really fun and shake things up a bit while removing the inverse free unit mechanic, which has much heavier weight than real free units after host nerf/figure out and broodlords being a pretty late, slow and situational unit. Getting that implemented would make it alot easier to balance around it than heal, which creates thoses stupid situations explained above which bring disorder to balance. Worth looking into imo, not sure if it can hold what it promises. Had some more points, but I guess this is enough for one post. Great post. I only disagree with the creep part. Zerg depends on getting good positioning before a battle, needing that vision and extra movement speed, otherwise there would be no chance vs things like tanks and storms. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On April 26 2018 15:19 Geo.Rion wrote: That simply just isnt true, Terran's racial mechanics are all about comeback / recovering from taking damage (mules, drops, repairs, liftoffs etc). Nowadays you mainly see it just in TvZ (Maru played a macro game from being down 40 scvs for a good 10 minutes and won), because Protosses seem to roll over terrans once they get ahead, but that definitely hasnt always been the case. Protoss can also come back against terrans as well if it gets to the mid/lategame aoe units or the ground upgrades kick in. Zergs dont have real comeback mechanics, in BW their comeback mechanics was mainly the Defiler, and not much else. Here you could make the case for Vipers against tank heavy mech, but even that doesnt really work if you re considerably behind in eco. In PvZ protoss' comeback mechanics are turtle and max out, which worked very well, and still does, albeit very good zergs beat that with mass spore+ infestor I'd like to add that even in BW, whenever you had an advantage, you knew you'd win the game. It didn't matter if you lost your main army, in the end you knew you would've overun him. It's just a different edge from sc2. On April 26 2018 15:48 insitelol wrote: I thought i got myself clear in my post but i'll try one more time. People find everything they don't understand/something's dragging them out of comfort zone "frustrating". A lost a game - frustrating!, I got to get up early - frustrating!, I need to go to a shop to get something to eat - frustrating as fck! Ofc im exaggerating (just a bit) but how do i distinguish these from "real" (as you insist) frustration? And does it even exist? Or its just an excuse for not being able to overcome a challenge? Not gonna read the rest. Did you even read my post ? I said it doesn't matter if I can overcome that challenge or not. If it's frustrating, then it's not fun to play. Or do I have to make myself more clear ? I DO understand the challenge. I CAN overcome the challenge even with ease. Does it still make it fun ? No. And I'm pretty sure I'm far from being the only guy who doesn't like those things. Much like there are many frustrating thing in the game that make it random, especially the strong protoss pushes, or the end games where there are only energy units such as ravens, templars, infestors and vipers. And also some of the zerg units that are Broodlords and to a lesser extent swarmhost since they're free. Obviously, this is only my opinion. Much like yours. While I agree for the most majority of time, when ppl don't understand, they simply choose to ignore it and whine. But don't automatically think all the people don't understand it. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 27 2018 23:44 Ej_ wrote: Just because u don't like sth, doesn't mean it's wrong :o. People complain about everything in Starcraft and call it "bad design", from parasitic bomb, to warpgate, to marines. Don't forget that sensor towers are peak bad design. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7084 Posts
On April 28 2018 02:38 Fango wrote: Don't forget that sensor towers are peak bad design. Well its not like theyre good design either :D | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 28 2018 02:46 Luolis wrote: Well its not like theyre good design either :D They aren't genius design by any means, but if there are issues in the game that need addressing, sensor towers are not any kind of priotity. They aren't something that's spammed or even used that often. The difference they make in pro games isn't that significant imo.; | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
We can't just buff their armour, as this would cause problems in TvT and TvZ. An HP buff to marauder will fix TvP without ruining TvZ because hydras out-range maruaders anyways and roaches can always tank in the mid-game for the extra duration that an hp buff would provide My personal suggestion is that Marauders benefit from the Combat Shield Upgrade proporionally: I suggest Marauders receive 25 extra health uppon CS upgrade. IMO this would fix many things right now from the excess strength of roach/ravager allins to the issue that Terran has no real hard counter to zealots except liberators. Pls comment and share your ideas about this suggested change. I don't want to keep the air stuff escalating; in my opinion the best way to do this is to explore hp buffs for ground units and attack strength decreases accross the board. Which brings me to point #2, the pace of the game: I don't know if I've just been really unlucky or what, but in the last 10 streams or so that I've watched professionals, the number of times I've seen expensive units just misrallied or given away or armies un-A-moved to death just is driving me crazy. It's not just that people are mismicroing because their opponent cleverly distracted them, either. It's like there's too much for them to do in the first place. I'ts been the third year now since LOTV release. I have waited patiently and have, at this point, not once seen evidence that pro players have truly raised their skill to be able to handle more units faster. (Tankivac was an exception. I truly saw players raise the skill level due to that one.) Maybe it's time to consider starting with fewer workers. Allow the game to have an interesting early-game phase which isn't all-ins. | ||
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
You cant be serious. Remember what just 10 health buff did to hydras? Everyone complained. Youre talking about a 25 health buff to a unit with base armor... I dont think you understand how much stronger marauders would be with 25 health more. | ||
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Carminedust
487 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On May 01 2018 22:54 Carminedust wrote: clearly if everyone just plays like Maru Terran is balance just like during the broodlord/infestor era all you had to do as terran was either play as Mvp,taeja or Polt to make Terran Balance against zerg. Terran can play like avilo and be GM, so whining about "I should play like maru", when mech is so easy too play and strong... | ||
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