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In the wake of the recent Community Update, I’ve seen a lot of suggestions floating around to address what Blizzard said about PvT. A lot of people seem to be favoring Marauder and WM changes, while Blizzard themselves suggested Vikings and Liberators. The biggest issue seems to be how to help Terran in PvT without altering the balance of TvZ or PvZ–an understandably tricky issue.
In this context, I’d like to bring up a unit that is almost completely extinct in PvT: the Hellbat. Way back when HotS was first released, the Hellbat was actually used against Protoss. Their ability to handle Zealots synergized quite well with Marauders’ ability to handle Stalkers, and voila, Hellbat/Marauder was born. An unusual composition, to say the least, but it proved surprisingly effective against Protoss–at least until the Hellbat nerf hit and put an abrupt end to that. Hellbats were nerfed because they were taking over every matchup, and reversing that nerf is obviously a bad idea. Hellbat allins against Zerg, for example, would quickly grow out of control.
But there is a way to buff Hellbats solely against Protoss, and that is by adding +shield damage. This would allow Hellbats to regain their role as meatshields and anti-Zealot units, probably replacing WM in the early/midgame. The WM being what it is, I don’t think many people, Protoss or Terran, would be particularly sad about that.
Of course, the game is no longer the same as it was in 2013. The addition of Adepts, in particular, adds a new dynamic to the old Gateway comps. At first glance though, I don’t think Adepts will be a dealbreaker for Hellbats, since they are relatively short-ranged and not terribly fast.
I’ve got no clue if this is actually practical, but it seemed like a good enough idea to write down.
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It sounds pretty good but is it efficient, upgrade-wise, to use hellbats with your bio ? T seem to usually favor attack upgrade for air instead of armor upgrade for air and ground mech.
Not too bad though, would make the 3/3 chargelots a bit less powerful.
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Hellbats with bio? hmmmm
Terran need to put resources on research at that phase of the game though
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+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to?
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On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to?
Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss.
It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought.
In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong.
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On April 20 2018 17:54 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to? Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss. It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought. In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong.
Tanks currently do 70 damage to armoured units. Any meaningful +shield damage buff would be insane.
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Bonus shield damage on marines.
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Austria24420 Posts
I agree with the hellbat as unit of choice for this specific discussion. The issue with PvT is that Terran midgame aggression isn't really threatening at all, allowing Protoss to get away with very greedy openings and early third bases, then steamroll Terran before they can get to their ghost/raven lategame - which, trust me, is extremely strong.
Hellbats make sense as a unit to fill a role currently lacking in the Terran midgame. I can imagine hellbat/bio timings to break greedy Protoss thirds, or hellbat/bio compositions to deal with gateway heavy styles.
The only worry for me is that the last PvT midgame change to address this sort of thing went completely overboard and made the matchup absolutely terrible (the tank buff). Protoss was instantly limited to adept/phoenix and Terran could easily exploit that. As long as that can be avoided I'm all for trying it. I think it should be an upgrade though, otherwise you'll see Terran suicide medivacs with hellbats into probe lines every single game.
Personally think that the marauder change from HotS to LotV is unnecessary and would be an easy first step to try and help Terrans in the matchup. Wouldn't really affect TvZ much either.
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On April 20 2018 17:54 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to? Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss. It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought. In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong.
Keep in mind I came back to the game like 3 month ago.
Here is what I don't get about Terrans in TvP:
They try to avoid the lategame. They do a 2 base push, like they would against zerg, only without a third CC. Then they die to the counter attack, because Protoss is not zerg. I don't think you can start to openly trade and fight all over the map, like you can against zerg. Warp mechanics make that so.
Now if terrans can't defend without doing the very aggresive pushes I've been exposed to the last 3 month, then there is a problem. I do like the idea of making the siegetank strong vs protoss, so the map and position actually might matter again. I am however really scared by the way Terrans do approach this matchup. What if they still not even try for lategame? It probably is my askew last three month perspective, but since Terran can not fight over the map like they can against zerg, yet still try the exact same thing, which ends up with them throwing their army away, will they cry until every PvT is a 50/50 cointoss 2 base all in?
What if sensor towers, placed next to a CC,Orbital,PF or within a sensor towers range that had this connection, prevented warp ins? So Terrans can spread map control vs Toss like Zerg can spread creep.
What if warpgates actually produced slower than gateways, like god intended?
I am not invested into any of these idea, from my protoss point of view, PvT is "fine". I just don't get Terran players, if they can't survive until late game, give them better defenses, just think hard and long if they gonna abuse that like Protoss do abuse shield batteries.
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Austria24420 Posts
The last time siege tanks were buffed, Protoss died to siege tank pushes every game unless they did one specific opening that was vulnerable to a lot of nonsense and was essentially all-in the whole game. It was also terrible to play, play against, and watch. No thanks.
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On April 20 2018 18:51 Olli wrote:
The last time siege tanks were buffed, Protoss died to siege tank pushes every game unless they did one specific opening that was vulnerable to a lot of nonsense and was essentially all-in the whole game. It was also terrible to play, play against, and watch. No thanks.
That is what I assumed in my post. Thanks for the clarification. (your post above mine was not there when I was typing ;D)
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wouldnt +shield dmg for helbats make them insane at probekilling?
i would like concussion grenades to have a splash effect. that should be pretty cool
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reverse marauder change
bring back cyclone lock-on vs ground
game fixed
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Not a good idea. Why should something be changed after 8 years and it is absolutely working in proper situations and race matches? I do still remember Polt"s hellbats/banshees back in 2011 tho and the game evolved a lot. This sounds like adding blink to zerglings or adding air damage to colosus. I'm sorry but if we add shield damage to hellbats then we should remove the ghost unit entirely in the TvP formula. If you think that this game becomes boring in time or unbalanced then focus on the mechanics in Broodwar Remastered. Yes, SCII used to have much greater balance in some periods but right now I think that the situation is pretty much acceptable. Fixes and slight changes are always welcome but not changing the entirely phylosophy for some units and tactics.
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Hellbats were nerfed because they would rape mineral lines, not because of their effectiveness in the terran army composition, you can't really touch any kind of + vs shield buff because of that.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 20 2018 18:47 JWD[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 17:54 MockHamill wrote:On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to? Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss. It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought. In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong. Keep in mind I came back to the game like 3 month ago. Here is what I don't get about Terrans in TvP: They try to avoid the lategame. They do a 2 base push, like they would against zerg, only without a third CC. Then they die to the counter attack, because Protoss is not zerg. I don't think you can start to openly trade and fight all over the map, like you can against zerg. Warp mechanics make that so. Now if terrans can't defend without doing the very aggresive pushes I've been exposed to the last 3 month, then there is a problem. I do like the idea of making the siegetank strong vs protoss, so the map and position actually might matter again. I am however really scared by the way Terrans do approach this matchup. What if they still not even try for lategame? It probably is my askew last three month perspective, but since Terran can not fight over the map like they can against zerg, yet still try the exact same thing, which ends up with them throwing their army away, will they cry until every PvT is a 50/50 cointoss 2 base all in? What if sensor towers, placed next to a CC,Orbital,PF or within a sensor towers range that had this connection, prevented warp ins? So Terrans can spread map control vs Toss like Zerg can spread creep. What if warpgates actually produced slower than gateways, like god intended? I am not invested into any of these idea, from my protoss point of view, PvT is "fine". I just don't get Terran players, if they can't survive until late game, give them better defenses, just think hard and long if they gonna abuse that like Protoss do abuse shield batteries.
Blocking warpgate negates any possible payback... like really? Zerg still has nydus and ovies are not produced from an important facility, unless you fix drops then this is really bad idea
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Hellbats dealing decently vs chargelots are "changing entirely the philosophy" of this unit ? Oo
It's more like a buff to it's indented purposed role (like when chargelots were buffed). Btw siege tanks buffs proposals are horrible imo. Tanks are super dupper trash vs toss (and shockingly so vs well-composed anti-tanks toss army), and (for bio play) it's good that way. Fixing current TvP with better tanks will force all terran to play bio-tanks, and so play with zero mobility... relative low mobility already being one of the major weakness of TvP (thanks to Prism, WP, Recall, Blink) and make for boring games and 1-push-to-win strategies.
Btw it's kinda funny how the major protoss issue (vT and vZ) is never ever addressed or even acknowledged : storm. In WoL and HoTS, strom was strong, but balanced by a huge cost in time and resources (to tech/make templars, etc.), shitty gateway units, low mobility, lower eco, etc. With LOTV economy with a 4th base at 8'30, and gateball already very strong vT, once reached it feels like toss have dozens of it when he want, infinitely renewable. Not to mention the Prism-templar combo who instantly wins 100% of Koreans games where i saw it. (even vs Maru, vs Dear i think )
Protoss upper hand in late-game PvZ is also totally dependent on good templar use.
So i find it kinda fun but strange how we talk that much about the ravens (for such a few number of mass ravens games), but never about templars. (or vipers vs tanks/vikings. A few vipers can be so devastating that's the reason so many terrans prefer to camp than to go for a pre-BL timing)
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On April 20 2018 20:57 MyiPtitDrogo wrote:
Hellbats were nerfed because they would rape mineral lines, not because of their effectiveness in the terran army composition, you can't really touch any kind of + vs shield buff because of that.
You can, the main hellbat drop nerf was the cargo supply, dropping 2 hellbats instead of 4 change everything (coz this line up with boost, and so the 3rd and 4th was catching mineral-tricked probes, some already damaged).
In mech TvZ even uppgraded, blue flame hellbats drops in mineral line are not as strong as the old 4-hellbat drop.
Besides that maybe there is some room for +shield while still killing probes with the same number of attacks ?
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Blue flame hellbats are still superstrong vs chargelot but weak vs colossus storm and archons.
There is one reason why you won't see hellbat In PvT :
WM is better, less situationnal, cheaper and doesn't require armory attack upgrade to be more effective, that's about it.
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On April 20 2018 21:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 18:47 JWD[9] wrote:On April 20 2018 17:54 MockHamill wrote:On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to? Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss. It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought. In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong. Keep in mind I came back to the game like 3 month ago. Here is what I don't get about Terrans in TvP: They try to avoid the lategame. They do a 2 base push, like they would against zerg, only without a third CC. Then they die to the counter attack, because Protoss is not zerg. I don't think you can start to openly trade and fight all over the map, like you can against zerg. Warp mechanics make that so. Now if terrans can't defend without doing the very aggresive pushes I've been exposed to the last 3 month, then there is a problem. I do like the idea of making the siegetank strong vs protoss, so the map and position actually might matter again. I am however really scared by the way Terrans do approach this matchup. What if they still not even try for lategame? It probably is my askew last three month perspective, but since Terran can not fight over the map like they can against zerg, yet still try the exact same thing, which ends up with them throwing their army away, will they cry until every PvT is a 50/50 cointoss 2 base all in? What if sensor towers, placed next to a CC,Orbital,PF or within a sensor towers range that had this connection, prevented warp ins? So Terrans can spread map control vs Toss like Zerg can spread creep. What if warpgates actually produced slower than gateways, like god intended? I am not invested into any of these idea, from my protoss point of view, PvT is "fine". I just don't get Terran players, if they can't survive until late game, give them better defenses, just think hard and long if they gonna abuse that like Protoss do abuse shield batteries. Blocking warpgate negates any possible payback... like really? Zerg still has nydus and ovies are not produced from an important facility, unless you fix drops then this is really bad idea
So, you don't like the idea. 
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EPT
