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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 20 2018 21:12 xongnox wrote:
Hellbats dealing decently vs chargelots are "changing entirely the philosophy" of this unit ? Oo
It's more like a buff to it's indented purposed role (like when chargelots were buffed). Btw siege tanks buffs proposals are horrible imo. Tanks are super dupper trash vs toss (and shockingly so vs well-composed anti-tanks toss army), and (for bio play) it's good that way. Fixing current TvP with better tanks will force all terran to play bio-tanks, and so play with zero mobility... relative low mobility already being one of the major weakness of TvP (thanks to Prism, WP, Recall, Blink) and make for boring games and 1-push-to-win strategies.
Btw it's kinda funny how the major protoss issue (vT and vZ) is never ever addressed or even acknowledged : storm. In WoL and HoTS, strom was strong, but balanced by a huge cost in time and resources (to tech/make templars, etc.), shitty gateway units, low mobility, lower eco, etc. With LOTV economy with a 4th base at 8'30, and gateball already very strong vT, once reached it feels like toss have dozens of it when he want, infinitely renewable. Not to mention the Prism-templar combo who instantly wins 100% of Koreans games where i saw it. (even vs Maru, vs Dear i think )
Protoss upper hand in late-game PvZ is also totally dependent on good templar use.
So i find it kinda fun but strange how we talk that much about the ravens (for such a few number of mass ravens games), but never about templars. (or vipers vs tanks/vikings. A few vipers can be so devastating that's the reason so many terrans prefer to camp than to go for a pre-BL timing)
Uh, at least storm doesn't stack like raven missile does
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On April 20 2018 21:33 JWD[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 21:04 deacon.frost wrote:On April 20 2018 18:47 JWD[9] wrote:On April 20 2018 17:54 MockHamill wrote:On April 20 2018 17:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:
+Shield damage added to a Terran unit can fix TvsP without breaking TvsZ. Which Terran unit it should be added to is perhaps a discussion the community should have. In this thread, the suggestion is Hellbat.
I think we should discuss the feasibility of adding +shield damage to a Terran unit. I think Hellbat is one unit that it may work out for. Other than Hellbats, what other Terran units are viable to add +shield damage to? Tanks since they really weak vs most Protoss units. Tank with bonus damage to shields would really help Terran in the midgame against Protoss. It also feels wrong from a design perspective that Protoss does not have to respect tank lines. In TvT and TvZ tank lines are to be respected, you can not just charge right in and come out ahead without giving it any thought. In TvP you can often just a-move through a tank line without giving it much thought. This just feels wrong. Keep in mind I came back to the game like 3 month ago. Here is what I don't get about Terrans in TvP: They try to avoid the lategame. They do a 2 base push, like they would against zerg, only without a third CC. Then they die to the counter attack, because Protoss is not zerg. I don't think you can start to openly trade and fight all over the map, like you can against zerg. Warp mechanics make that so. Now if terrans can't defend without doing the very aggresive pushes I've been exposed to the last 3 month, then there is a problem. I do like the idea of making the siegetank strong vs protoss, so the map and position actually might matter again. I am however really scared by the way Terrans do approach this matchup. What if they still not even try for lategame? It probably is my askew last three month perspective, but since Terran can not fight over the map like they can against zerg, yet still try the exact same thing, which ends up with them throwing their army away, will they cry until every PvT is a 50/50 cointoss 2 base all in? What if sensor towers, placed next to a CC,Orbital,PF or within a sensor towers range that had this connection, prevented warp ins? So Terrans can spread map control vs Toss like Zerg can spread creep. What if warpgates actually produced slower than gateways, like god intended? I am not invested into any of these idea, from my protoss point of view, PvT is "fine". I just don't get Terran players, if they can't survive until late game, give them better defenses, just think hard and long if they gonna abuse that like Protoss do abuse shield batteries. Blocking warpgate negates any possible payback... like really? Zerg still has nydus and ovies are not produced from an important facility, unless you fix drops then this is really bad idea So, you don't like the idea. 
OK, let me introduce you to the creativity((C) TLO).
Oh, how about split map scenario, Protoss is unable to warp near his bases to defend!
Oh, how about proxy "rush", Protoss is denied from 1 to 2 waves of his units and is unable to defend his bases. People were laughing at proxy shield batteries and behold now...
And that's just me, stupid noob, what CatZ will come up with is still unknown. This has a huge potential to missfire and be OP as hell.
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On April 20 2018 21:19 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 20:57 MyiPtitDrogo wrote:
Hellbats were nerfed because they would rape mineral lines, not because of their effectiveness in the terran army composition, you can't really touch any kind of + vs shield buff because of that. You can, the main hellbat drop nerf was the cargo supply, dropping 2 hellbats instead of 4 change everything (coz this line up with boost, and so the 3rd and 4th was catching mineral-tricked probes, some already damaged). In mech TvZ even uppgraded, blue flame hellbats drops in mineral line are not as strong as the old 4-hellbat drop. Besides that maybe there is some room for +shield while still killing probes with the same number of attacks ?
ah yea idk In my memory there was some kind of damage nerf, but it was actually a fucking upgrade requirement they put on the techlab lol (after the from 4 to 2 nerf).
yea Idk you'd need to not have hellbat not destroys probes and I think that limits your ability to play around with the unit a bit too much.
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On April 20 2018 20:22 Veluvian wrote:
Not a good idea. Why should something be changed after 8 years and it is absolutely working in proper situations and race matches? I do still remember Polt"s hellbats/banshees back in 2011 tho and the game evolved a lot. This sounds like adding blink to zerglings or adding air damage to colosus. I'm sorry but if we add shield damage to hellbats then we should remove the ghost unit entirely in the TvP formula. If you think that this game becomes boring in time or unbalanced then focus on the mechanics in Broodwar Remastered. Yes, SCII used to have much greater balance in some periods but right now I think that the situation is pretty much acceptable. Fixes and slight changes are always welcome but not changing the entirely phylosophy for some units and tactics.
either you are confused or you made a mistype...there were no hellbats back in 2011, only hellions. and the proposed change is to hellbats, not hellions
adding a flat damage increase vs certain units is nothing like giving them the versatility to hit air or ground without that prior ability. i have no idea where you got that, but this sentiment is at minimum a hyperbole.
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First of all, I do want to mention that I love Hellbats. That being said, do we want un-upgraded Hellbats 2 shot-ing Probes again though? Both the cargo nerf and the light damage nerf were carried out to decrease the efficiency of Hellbat drops (as well as some other problems it posed). The cargo nerf (4->2) was not enough so Blizzard had to change the Hellbat's damage from 18(+12 light) to just 18 after monitoring the situation for a while. I'm all for increasing the Hellbat's use in PvT, but will Hellbat drops become a problem again if we only change the Hellbat's +shield damage and not anything else? And by problem I mean "too easy to execute, and not a lot of risk by doing them" as a certain person in the old balance team once said.
Once again, I want to make it clear that I love Hellbats and certainly want to see them used a wicked amount more in PvT. But I also don't want PvT to become focused on Hellbat drops that instantly evaporate mineral lines.
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On April 20 2018 23:25 Mahanaim wrote:
First of all, I do want to mention that I love Hellbats. That being said, do we want Hellbats 2 shot-ing Probes again though? Both the cargo nerf and the light damage nerf were carried out to decrease the efficiency of Hellbat drops (as well as some other problems it posed). The cargo nerf (4->2) was not enough so Blizzard had to change the Hellbat's damage from 18(+12 light) to just 18 after monitoring the situation for a while. I'm all for increasing the Hellbat's use in PvT, but will Hellbat drops become a problem again if we only change the Hellbat's +shield damage and not anything else? And by problem I mean "too easy to execute, and not a lot of risk by doing them" as a certain person in the old balance team once said.
Once again, I want to make it clear that I love Hellbats and certainly want to see them used a wicked amount more in PvT. But I also don't want PvT to become focused on Hellbat drops that instantly evaporate mineral lines.
can the ability be somethin like "incrase heat on ground" so that hovering units are not affected by the +shield damage ?
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Only way around it would be to take away shields from probe which would take away soo much early game probe harassment and make probes easily the worst workers for fighting. Maybe we could do something else with the hellbat like giving it a concussive-like attack like say this is an armory upgrade uh 150/150 or something each time the hellbat hit a unit it would slow that unit for about half of what concussive would or maybe it would have a DoT since the unit gets set on fire lol idk... Maybe even EMP could slow units that are mechanical.
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We could move +shields onto blue flame and put blue flame behind armory while decreasing research cost? The intention being that hellbats are scariest in TvZ in the early X + hellbat (banshee, ghost, marine medivac) rushes, so if you make it slow to come out you can only affect midgame and not early game hellbat play.
Present day blue flame hellbats also 2 shot workers but we don't see them getting used often, I don't think 2 shotting workers is game breaking. Feels like it's expensive to rush blue flame, and starting in midgame hellbat drops are a lot weaker than bio drops since bio can kill buildings too.
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On April 20 2018 23:53 Ryu3600 wrote:
Only way around it would be to take away shields from probe which would take away soo much early game probe harassment and make probes easily the worst workers for fighting. Maybe we could do something else with the hellbat like giving it a concussive-like attack like say this is an armory upgrade uh 150/150 or something each time the hellbat hit a unit it would slow that unit for about half of what concussive would or maybe it would have a DoT since the unit gets set on fire lol idk... Maybe even EMP could slow units that are mechanical.
Dunno about upgrades, the whole reason Hellbats aren't used against Protoss is that blueflame (which makes them pretty good against Protoss) takes too much time + resources.
Hellbats can only ever be an earlygame thing because mech is terrible against Protoss so there has to be a bio transition in the midgame.
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Hellbats, Cyclones and Thor are just bad designed units.
I hope one day, one day, blizzard makes a unit that can replace those ones. A balanced goliath for example.
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On April 20 2018 22:41 MyiPtitDrogo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2018 21:19 xongnox wrote:On April 20 2018 20:57 MyiPtitDrogo wrote:
Hellbats were nerfed because they would rape mineral lines, not because of their effectiveness in the terran army composition, you can't really touch any kind of + vs shield buff because of that. You can, the main hellbat drop nerf was the cargo supply, dropping 2 hellbats instead of 4 change everything (coz this line up with boost, and so the 3rd and 4th was catching mineral-tricked probes, some already damaged). In mech TvZ even uppgraded, blue flame hellbats drops in mineral line are not as strong as the old 4-hellbat drop. Besides that maybe there is some room for +shield while still killing probes with the same number of attacks ? ah yea idk In my memory there was some kind of damage nerf, but it was actually a fucking upgrade requirement they put on the techlab lol (after the from 4 to 2 nerf). yea Idk you'd need to not have hellbat not destroys probes and I think that limits your ability to play around with the unit a bit too much.
Once hellbats have blueflame they 2 shot all workers even if they have 0 attack upgrades (hellions too).
As long as they dont 1 shot them attack buffs vs shields make no diference.
Just tie this buff to blueflame, since they buffed cost getting blueflame isn't terribly expensive and you need an armory for hellbats already.
I think this is a good idea, WM would still have a place since they deal more burst damage and would be better for fast pushes but hellbats would be better for longer games since you can heal them and they have high HP. Not to mention that the reason tanks are bad is because zealots destroy them, a pack of buffed hellbats would make a tank line scary again.
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Why people would like to buff an unit that does the job already? They rape zealots.
I think the only issue for T in PvT is falling behind in the early midgame ( late 3rd ).
--> combine stim and combat shield in 1 upgrade and make it faster to research.
So terran can put presure again,
PvT fixed
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On April 20 2018 16:02 hfsrj wrote:
It sounds pretty good but is it efficient, upgrade-wise, to use hellbats with your bio ? T seem to usually favor attack upgrade for air instead of armor upgrade for air and ground mech.
Not too bad though, would make the 3/3 chargelots a bit less powerful.
Yes it can be efficient, even more so than double ebay.
I recall inovation going single ebay and single armory (the 1 armory is required for further ebay upgrades) and he would upgrade attack on the ebay and armor on the armory.
This would make his bio super strong and his tanky hellbats even more tanky.
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From what I understand the overall problem that people see in the TvP matchup is that Terran isn't able to apply enough pressure in the mid-game.
But I honestly don't agree with that assessment. We have rich history of how the matchup looked when Terran was able to do just that and I am kinda glad that we moved away from it. I am not too keen on seeing even more "pull-the-boys" moments that decide the game. I am also not too keen on seeing Protoss being forced to turtle like crazy just to stay alive until they have higher tech available. We have been there.
And, let's be honest here, that's exactly what could happen again if Terran goes back to that mid-game strength.
So I think that buffs that target certain unit timings are not the way to go here.
If the problem is that Protoss can be too greedy and efficient in getting up to 3 bases whereas Terran cannot do the same, how about we look at why Terran cannot do the same instead? Is building the right infrastructure the problem? Getting the right tech at the right time? Is the economy too slow? Is it a problem of scouting?
If any of those things, or a combination of them, is the main issue, why not address those instead of putting Terran back on a path of mid-game all-ins?
I agree that buffing Widow Mines, Liberators or Terran air in general is not the right way to go. The least fun I had playing and watching the game was when those units or compositions were dominant, so those cannot really be the answer here.
On April 20 2018 21:12 xongnox wrote:
So i find it kinda fun but strange how we talk that much about the ravens (for such a few number of mass ravens games), but never about templars. (or vipers vs tanks/vikings. A few vipers can be so devastating that's the reason so many terrans prefer to camp than to go for a pre-BL timing)
This is a question of design, not balance.
Let's imagine that during the Broodlord-Infestor time the ZvX matchups where perfectly balanced in terms of results. The composition would still have been problematic because at that point, everything revolved around Zerg trying to get to their unbeatable composition and every other race trying to stop Zerg from getting there. That's not an enjoyable meta to watch. Whether or not the other races had a 50% success rate at stopping Zerg from getting there is not relevant.
The case you are making against Storm could've been made in very similar fashion against Medivac Boost or Stim Pack. But those are cornerstones of the respective races. If you want to address those, you would almost have to re-design the entire race from the ground up.
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I think one unit that everyone seems to be ignoring is the Warp Prism. For its cost its an extremely powerful early game unit. It allows Protoss to keep Terran in his base while macroing. In the early days protoss didn't have oracles or mass recall and hence this added much needed harass capability. However now its overkill. So there are two potential solutions
1. Slow down warp prism. Add an upgrade in Robo bay to upgrade speed making the prism slightly faster than it is right now.
2. Keep speed the same but remove ability for warp in moving it to an upgrade in Robo bay.
This also means protoss need to choose between upgrading colossus range or warp prism speed/warpins depending on the direction they want the game to go. This will allow terran to pressure more effectively in mid game. This way no units get unnecessarily buffed or nerfed.
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I feel like in TvP you choose between 1 of 3 things.
1. Putting on actual aggression and getting a push/timing that does enough damage to transition into
2. 2 base all in and ending the game with a dedicated push that has no transition
3. Going for 3CC play which makes you vulnerable to a lot of attacks
Thing is protoss can kind of do any of these 1 things and get the options just fine. If a protoss all in fails you can just go home and macro out on even terms. Your mid game timing later will be ridiculous to hold and you will probably get your fourth maybe even third faster than the Terran
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what you think this buff will do: normalize a new option for standard terran composition
what it will actually do: hellbat drops every tvp
On April 21 2018 03:23 WickedBit wrote:
I think one unit that everyone seems to be ignoring is the Warp Prism. For its cost its an extremely powerful early game unit. It allows Protoss to keep Terran in his base while macroing. In the early days protoss didn't have oracles or mass recall and hence this added much needed harass capability. However now its overkill. So there are two potential solutions
1. Slow down warp prism. Add an upgrade in Robo bay to upgrade speed making the prism slightly faster than it is right now.
2. Keep speed the same but remove ability for warp in moving it to an upgrade in Robo bay.
This also means protoss need to choose between upgrading colossus range or warp prism speed/warpins depending on the direction they want the game to go. This will allow terran to pressure more effectively in mid game. This way no units get unnecessarily buffed or nerfed.
tbh it makes it difficult to take your ideas on design seriously when you're proposing an upgrade that already exists exactly as you described it
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hellbats are still good vs zealots and adepts, if 10 adepts with glaives shade on top of 10 hellbats with blue flame, all of them will die and all hellbats survive, 15 adepts will also die and 3 hellbats survive, but who wants to build quick 2nd factory for it lol.
I think that lowering cost of blue flame to 100/100 and production time to 40+ sec will not hurt early tvz hellbat pushes but will slightly encourage invest in it vs toss.
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On April 21 2018 07:40 brickrd wrote:what you think this buff will do: normalize a new option for standard terran composition what it will actually do: hellbat drops every tvp Show nested quote +On April 21 2018 03:23 WickedBit wrote:
I think one unit that everyone seems to be ignoring is the Warp Prism. For its cost its an extremely powerful early game unit. It allows Protoss to keep Terran in his base while macroing. In the early days protoss didn't have oracles or mass recall and hence this added much needed harass capability. However now its overkill. So there are two potential solutions
1. Slow down warp prism. Add an upgrade in Robo bay to upgrade speed making the prism slightly faster than it is right now.
2. Keep speed the same but remove ability for warp in moving it to an upgrade in Robo bay.
This also means protoss need to choose between upgrading colossus range or warp prism speed/warpins depending on the direction they want the game to go. This will allow terran to pressure more effectively in mid game. This way no units get unnecessarily buffed or nerfed.
tbh it makes it difficult to take your ideas on design seriously when you're proposing an upgrade that already exists exactly as you described it
To clarify, current warp prism pre gravitic drive is faster than both medivacs (without boost) and droperlords. Additionally it can pick stuff up from further away and warp in reinforcements. The current speed upgrade is mostly unnecessary.
What i am saying is to either reduce speed to be a lot slower (like 2.5 or something from 4.13) without the uograde and post upgrade around 5 or keep speed same and make warp in and long range pickup part upgradeable.
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On April 21 2018 12:22 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
hellbats are still good vs zealots and adepts, if 10 adepts with glaives shade on top of 10 hellbats with blue flame, all of them will die and all hellbats survive, 15 adepts will also die and 3 hellbats survive, but who wants to build quick 2nd factory for it lol.
I think that lowering cost of blue flame to 100/100 and production time to 40+ sec will not hurt early tvz hellbat pushes but will slightly encourage invest in it vs toss.
Thing is, Hellbats are always on a timer since sooner or later Terran absolutely must make a bio transition against Protoss. The longer they're delayed (by upgrades), the less effective they will be.
Also, early blueflame would almost certainly lead to more Hellbat allins against Zerg.
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Austria24417 Posts
Hellbats suiciding into probe lines would just be dumb. It would have to be an upgrade.
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EPT
