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Okay this is getting derailed into the same region lock debate as always.
Please stay on the topic of GSL qualifiers. |
On March 29 2018 13:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 12:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Looks like Blizzard just threw some fuel on this fire
I've been saying for the past couple days that the rules indicate it's not possible for a Korean to play in both, despite people arguing with me that that isn't the case. But darn that just seems so unnecessary from blizzard. Allowing Scarlett and the others to play but not TRUE is so strange. If he counts as American under one set of rules he should count under another.
You're still wrong--the rules as written do allow it.
I do confess that I was wrong in my assumption that Blizzard would let things slide, since it's only TRUE and that in all likelihood there will be no other Koreans in the same situation.
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On March 29 2018 13:27 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 13:03 Fango wrote:I've been saying for the past couple days that the rules indicate it's not possible for a Korean to play in both, despite people arguing with me that that isn't the case. But darn that just seems so unnecessary from blizzard. Allowing Scarlett and the others to play but not TRUE is so strange. If he counts as American under one set of rules he should count under another. You're still wrong--the rules as written do allow it. I do confess that I was wrong in my assumption that Blizzard would let things slide, since it's only TRUE and that in all likelihood there will be no other Koreans in the same situation.
"And Blizzard will try to maintain an illusion of fairness"
I found your mistake, though I take no joy in it. It wouldn't have hurt anyone if Blizzard just looked the other way, but I guess they decided this was important enough to whack TRUE over.
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I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket.
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On March 29 2018 13:47 argonautdice wrote:
I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket.
The Koreans who would get those slots would be top Koreans who are mostly unaffected by the presence of foreigners in GSL rather than the lower-tier Koreans who are.
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United States33648 Posts
My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and still meet the very strict criteria to be a "qualifying foreign resident" category WCS Circuit player (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan):
From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c).
(c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013.
Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now.
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On March 29 2018 12:06 Charoisaur wrote:
Only Dark, Classic, Inno etc are important the other players don't matter.
I thought it was notable (since people keep talking about the motivation for region-lock being teamhouse and coach advantage) that the players you cited are ex-SKT players and therefore aren't playing on teams and don't have coaches.
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On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). Show nested quote +(c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now.
Yeah, but which part of the rule?
The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior).
TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions.
I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel.
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On March 29 2018 13:47 argonautdice wrote:
I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket.
WESG runs on the exact model you are describing, and look at what happened there. The handful of Koreans would slaughter the foreigners and every single Ro4 would be all-Korean.
Somehow I doubt that would help things.
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United States33648 Posts
On March 29 2018 14:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). (c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now. Yeah, but which part of the rule? The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior). TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions. I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel.
My reading is that he has to be living in the USA for one uninterrupted month prior to the start date of WCS Austin (June 1) to be eligible: "a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate."
Given the projected length of GSL, that's probably a RO16 forfeit (since RO16 is probably going to be played in May), and 100% a forfeit for anything RO8 and higher.
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On March 29 2018 14:11 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 14:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). (c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now. Yeah, but which part of the rule? The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior). TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions. I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel. My reading is that he has to be living in the USA for one uninterrupted month prior to the start date of WCS Austin (June 1). Given the projected length of GSL, that's probably a RO16 forfeit (since RO16 is probably going to be played in May), and 100% a forfeit for anything RO8 and higher.
Reading it that way means that permanent residents such as MaSa would need to live in their country for an entire uninterrupted year prior to the event due to 4.6(b) being worded in the same manner, which isn't the case.
Apparently it's the 5 week clause that Blizzard just retroactively amended:
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On March 29 2018 14:11 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 14:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). (c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now. Yeah, but which part of the rule? The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior). TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions. I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel. My reading is that he has to be living in the USA for one uninterrupted month prior to the start date of WCS Austin (June 1) to be eligible: "a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate." Given the projected length of GSL, that's probably a RO16 forfeit (since RO16 is probably going to be played in May), and 100% a forfeit for anything RO8 and higher.
Wait, but wouldn't that same restriction force Scarlett et al. to forfeit?
Which clearly hasn't happened.
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On March 29 2018 14:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 14:11 Waxangel wrote:On March 29 2018 14:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). (c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now. Yeah, but which part of the rule? The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior). TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions. I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel. My reading is that he has to be living in the USA for one uninterrupted month prior to the start date of WCS Austin (June 1) to be eligible: "a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate." Given the projected length of GSL, that's probably a RO16 forfeit (since RO16 is probably going to be played in May), and 100% a forfeit for anything RO8 and higher. Wait, but wouldn't that same restriction force Scarlett et al. to forfeit? Which clearly hasn't happened.
No. They aren't "qualifying foreign residents". But regardless it isn't that part apparently.
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On March 29 2018 14:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 14:11 Waxangel wrote:On March 29 2018 14:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:51 Waxangel wrote:My best guess regarding TRUE would be that it's be very difficult to complete a full season of GSL and compete in WCS Circuit while still adhering to the very strict rules for "qualifying foreign resident" category players (essentially TRUE with his American athlete visa and Swedish Winter with his student visa in Japan): From the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c). (c) For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided
Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to
the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided
Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that
country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign
resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only
for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in
advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless
the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying
foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit
Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit
Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for
participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since
January 1, 2013. Perhaps that information was relayed to him in a way that he interpreted it as "you MUST forfeit one" without any further explanation. I'm just guessing for now. Yeah, but which part of the rule? The maximum of five weeks are for "non-competitive reasons" which GSL presumably doesn't fall under. Additionally the "resided in a Circuit Country for a least one month prior to the first match of the event" is a residency requirement which based on the fact that the wording is identical to part 4.6(b) for permanent residents is a requirement on the beginning of the terms of residency (and TRUE most assuredly became a resident more than one month prior). TRUE has admittedly been breaking the rather ridiculous requirement to "play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region", but he did that a number of times last year without repercussions. I guess these terms do sanction Blizzard arbitrarily denying approval of travel. My reading is that he has to be living in the USA for one uninterrupted month prior to the start date of WCS Austin (June 1). Given the projected length of GSL, that's probably a RO16 forfeit (since RO16 is probably going to be played in May), and 100% a forfeit for anything RO8 and higher. Reading it that way means that permanent residents such as MaSa would need to live in their country for an entire uninterrupted year prior to the event due to 4.6(b) being worded in the same manner, which isn't the case. Apparently it's the 5 week clause that Blizzard just retroactively amended: https://twitter.com/psiPengWin/status/979222571358007296
Gotta love it when ex post facto fucks you over
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On March 29 2018 13:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 13:47 argonautdice wrote:
I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket. The Koreans who would get those slots would be top Koreans who are mostly unaffected by the presence of foreigners in GSL rather than the lower-tier Koreans who are.
I think a better solution is to put a cap on points that people can earn in a given region before having to stay in your home region.
Say 1500 points. You can compete in WCS/Korea up to that point in time, but after you reach 1500 (or something) points in a region, you cannnot earn more points. This would allow lower level foreigners to compete in GSL while at the same time allowing lower level Koreans to compete in WCS up to a certain point in time.
And then put a cap on where you can compete if you reached x amount of points in a prior season. If you accumulated...say 4000 points in a given year and region, you are barred from competing in another region.
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On March 29 2018 14:27 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 13:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:47 argonautdice wrote:
I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket. The Koreans who would get those slots would be top Koreans who are mostly unaffected by the presence of foreigners in GSL rather than the lower-tier Koreans who are. I think a better solution is to put a cap on points that people can earn in a given region before having to stay in your home region. Say 1500 points. You can compete in WCS/Korea up to that point in time, but after you reach 1500 (or something) points in a region, you cannnot earn more points. This would allow lower level foreigners to compete in GSL while at the same time allowing lower level Koreans to compete in WCS up to a certain point in time. And then put a cap on where you can compete if you reached x amount of points in a prior season. If you accumulated...say 4000 points in a given year and region, you are barred from competing in another region.
Lower level Koreans can't afford to compete in WCS. Additionally a point cap sounds like a rather ugly solution overall.
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Idk a points cap wouldn't be bad. Then it'd be the same for everyone
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On March 29 2018 14:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 14:27 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 29 2018 13:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 29 2018 13:47 argonautdice wrote:
I think a good solution would be to give Koreans 2-4 slots in the Ro32 of WCS tournaments. Or hold a qualifier for about 4 spots to let them compete in the open bracket. The Koreans who would get those slots would be top Koreans who are mostly unaffected by the presence of foreigners in GSL rather than the lower-tier Koreans who are. I think a better solution is to put a cap on points that people can earn in a given region before having to stay in your home region. Say 1500 points. You can compete in WCS/Korea up to that point in time, but after you reach 1500 (or something) points in a region, you cannnot earn more points. This would allow lower level foreigners to compete in GSL while at the same time allowing lower level Koreans to compete in WCS up to a certain point in time. And then put a cap on where you can compete if you reached x amount of points in a prior season. If you accumulated...say 4000 points in a given year and region, you are barred from competing in another region. Lower level Koreans can't afford to compete in WCS. Additionally a point cap sounds like a rather ugly solution overall.
They can play in the qualifiers and earn money there. They can afford to fly there as much as lower level foreigners can afford to fly there.
Yes, a point cap is ugly, but it is an effective way of barring someone from competing if that person is too good.
Using a 2000 previous season cap for Korea, because they're better, players like Trap, Losira, Zest, and Keen could play in WCS. Yes, they're quite good, but top level and even mid-tier foreigners can win against these players. Zest was in a slump last year, which is why he's so low.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
And here I was thinking I couldn't hate Blizzard more for this system. And I was wrong.
I hope all the foreigners get recked(most probably with a patch since they're all Zergs, what a coincidence!).
User was warned for this post
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I'll never get over the mental gymnastics some people on this forum use. "Koreans are better than foreigners, so if they win than they deserve it. But when foreigners win the system is unfair, we can't have people thinking foreigners can compete with the Korean master race." You can't compare the impact of 4 foreigners playing in GSL, most of whom will lose early on, and 3/4 of the top 16 at every foreign event being Korean. One damages the lowest tiers of the scene, the other completely kills it from top to bottom.
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On March 29 2018 15:53 Solar424 wrote:
I'll never get over the mental gymnastics some people on this forum use. "Koreans are better than foreigners, so if they win than they deserve it. But when foreigners win the system is unfair, we can't have people thinking foreigners can compete with the Korean master race." You can't compare the impact of 4 foreigners playing in GSL, most of whom will lose early on, and 3/4 of the top 16 at every foreign event being Korean. One damages the lowest tiers of the scene, the other completely kills it from top to bottom.
And damaging the lowest tier doesn't matter?
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EPT
