She's been pretty consistently top 3 foreigner for a good time now. (:
GSL Code S Season 2 (2018) qualifier results - Page 4
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Okay this is getting derailed into the same region lock debate as always. Please stay on the topic of GSL qualifiers. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
She's been pretty consistently top 3 foreigner for a good time now. (: | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
You're missing the point. Foreigners have their own special tournaments that koreans aren't allowed to compete in. Yet they're also allowed to play in the korean tournaments and earn money there as well. Which is blatently unfair to the koreans as it's their primary source of competition. Koreans previously going to foreigner tournaments and "stealing money" wasn't at all the same thing. There's no hypocrisy there because region locking didn't exist during this time. If foreigners wanted to play in korea they could, in fact some of them did. During this time both koreans and foreigners could play anywhere. If you agree that the best players should be the ones who qualify, then that same mentality should apply to the WCS events where koreans aren't allowed into. The system was inherently unfair previously with Koreans being able to participate in all tournaments and having internal GSL+ other tournaments and receiving sallaries 10-50 times higher than foreign players + having coaches, team houses etc. Hence we ended up with Koreans dominating everything as realistically we had no foreign pro players. Now this is being balanced out and foreigners can catch up - at great cost mind you - the players living in Korea have to cover most of the costs from their own pocket (wcs winnings) unlike Koreans in the past. All unfairness results from past decisions to focus on Korea, which in fact was killing popularity of the game.. | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
On March 29 2018 07:33 Shuffleblade wrote: What the hell is wrong with all of you, whats not cool with foreigners winning GSL code S spots? You all act as if the spots where won in a raffle, Sortof got first spot in his bracket defeating unknown korean, Creator and eMotion. Elazer got his spot defeating PartinG and Hurricane. Zanster went through Salvation and Ragnarok. Scarlett went through TY and Bunny to take first spot. All of the above are high level korean pros (even though PartinGs form is unknown), its not like they got through based on bracket luck. Almost no foreigner faced other foreigners, they took their spots fair and square and that is really cool to see. I hate the WCS system where koreans are locked into korea but don't blame that on the foreigners that are kicking ass. Its quite simple really, the best players should qualify, I believe that was the spirit of GSL and I also believed that was the reason you korean pro fans loved it so much. Half the fanbase cried that it was unfair when koreans went abroad and stole the money from the foreigner pros, the other half argued its fair the best players should go to the tournaments and earn the money. These korean pro fans that wanted them to be able to go any tournament is now crying that its unfair that foreigners are allowed to go to korea and win money if they are better than the koreans? Its like a bad tv show, the ultimate hypocrites. User was warned for this post I hope the people who are saying that the GSL is the most prestigious tournament in the world aren't the same ones who are now bashing foreigners breaking into the GSL. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 29 2018 07:59 Kafka777 wrote: The system was inherently unfair previously with Koreans being able to participate in all tournaments and having internal GSL+ other tournaments and receiving sallaries 10-50 times higher than foreign players + having coaches, team houses etc. Hence we ended up with Koreans dominating everything as realistically we had no foreign pro players. Now this is being balanced out and foreigners can catch up - at great cost mind you - the players living in Korea have to cover most of the costs from their own pocket (wcs winnings) unlike Koreans in the past. All unfairness results from past decisions to focus on Korea, which in fact was killing popularity of the game.. Foreigners were able to compete in GSL and other korean tournaments before you know? Some of them even moved into kespa houses and played in proleague/SSL etc. The only thing koreans had "unfair" was the teamstructure. If foreigners actually trained and practiced just as hard they would been able to compete better. Which some of them did (Snute for example). It's really not "balanced out" now either, the current system is grossly in favour of foreigners. Giving them access to literally everything while koreans are restricted to their own tournaments. The top koreans may be okay but the mid-low tier ones have been almost completely killed of. "All unfairness results from past decisions to focus on Korea, which in fact was killing popularity of the game" what utter nonsense. Not that I'd expect anything better from the most deluded foreign fanboy on the site. | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
I do think though that this is an illustration of why the qualifiers are flawed in it's approach. We all know weekend tournies are different to GSL. But the qualifier is run like a weekend tourney. I feel like that's why you get some people making into the GSL to then just get demolished, because they may have the flare to make it through a weekend, but not the skills to stand up to people who will come prepared for you specifically. This just means some of the other pros who are actually good at the GSL format miss out, and you get a lackluster early round. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
Foreigners were able to compete in GSL and other korean tournaments before you know? Some of them even moved into kespa houses and played in proleague/SSL etc. The only thing koreans had "unfair" was the teamstructure. If foreigners actually trained and practiced just as hard they would been able to compete better. Which some of them did (Snute for example). It's really not "balanced out" now either, the current system is grossly in favour of foreigners. Giving them access to literally everything while koreans are restricted to their own tournaments. The top koreans may be okay but the mid-low tier ones have been almost completely killed of. "All unfairness results from past decisions to focus on Korea, which in fact was killing popularity of the game" what utter nonsense. Not that I'd expect anything better from the most deluded foreign fanboy on the site. I think you are really missing the point. Foreign players have always or mostly had to pay for their visits to Korea from their own pocket, teams (with few exceptions) did not pay for this, just like it is now. There are foreigners in Korea coz they won prize money in wcs (but also they do get some support now, otherwise it would be impossible to rent the flat get pc's etc). Koreans did not only receive all the support that I mentioned earlier but they were also flown in and received free accommodation from tournament organizers like Homestory cup (this is not available to foreiggners who have to pay to participate in the cup), just to pick up a check. How can you even compare the passion foreign players have vs Koreans. Koreans have always had all their bills and accommodation paid while earning 10-50 x more from their teams.. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On March 29 2018 08:18 Fango wrote: Foreigners were able to compete in GSL and other korean tournaments before you know? Some of them even moved into kespa houses and played in proleague/SSL etc. The only thing koreans had "unfair" was the teamstructure. If foreigners actually trained and practiced just as hard they would been able to compete better. Which some of them did (Snute for example). It's really not "balanced out" now either, the current system is grossly in favour of foreigners. Giving them access to literally everything while koreans are restricted to their own tournaments. The top koreans may be okay but the mid-low tier ones have been almost completely killed off. The problem was that once the Koreans got an advantage, they snowballed that advantage until no foreigner could compete monetarily. I cannot speak for how much foreigners practiced then, but if the pro is not making money, that pro either had to win or retire. Having that team structure is really huge. It's like saying, "You don't need a coach to be a good swimmer." Well....you don't, but it sure helps. Because there was no region lock, it was difficult for foreigners to move into that team house environment in Korea and keep paying for the costs. Besides, as TRUE just proved, you can indeed be a Korean competing on a visa and still play for the GSL/Supertournament. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Are you getting deja vu? | ||
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spoonmaster
United States347 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 29 2018 09:06 FrkFrJss wrote: The problem was that once the Koreans got an advantage, they snowballed that advantage until no foreigner could compete monetarily. I cannot speak for how much foreigners practiced then, but if the pro is not making money, that pro either had to win or retire. Having that team structure is really huge. It's like saying, "You don't need a coach to be a good swimmer." Well....you don't, but it sure helps. Because there was no region lock, it was difficult for foreigners to move into that team house environment in Korea and keep paying for the costs. Besides, as TRUE just proved, you can indeed be a Korean competing on a visa and still play for the GSL/Supertournament. Foreigners could compete if they had practiced properly, they just didn't bother. Snute did incredible throughout HoTS, so did a few others. That's because they were committed. The teamhouse environment didn't automatically improve results, I'm sure it helped a lot of up and coming players but using it as an excuse for poor performance is stupid. Taeja basically lived as a foreigner and managed to win enough. Other players like Rain, ByuN etc won GSL without a teamhouse behind them. It's nice that blizz allowed TRUE to play in both GSL and WCS though. Although it's worth noting the mid-tier koreans are probably unable of doing what he's done without a rich team supporting them, so it's not like they're as free as he is. I'd assume they allowed it because it's over a month until the next wcs event (one of the requirements for korean players in wcs is for them to reside in their region for a month before a an event). What's more baffling is how he qualified for both GSL and ST given his usual level of play. | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
There was a discussion two days ago that covered everything that's been said here already, and in all likelihood, whatever is going to be said here in the near future Koreans used to have an organic advantage in their developed scene. Foreigners now have an artificial advantage in Blizzard's diktat. Korean SC2 is dying and will last a few more years at most. Foreign SC2 will probably follow it into the grave. The end. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On March 29 2018 07:33 Shuffleblade wrote: What the hell is wrong with all of you, whats not cool with foreigners winning GSL code S spots? You all act as if the spots where won in a raffle, Sortof got first spot in his bracket defeating unknown korean, Creator and eMotion. Elazer got his spot defeating PartinG and Hurricane. Zanster went through Salvation and Ragnarok. Scarlett went through TY and Bunny to take first spot. All of the above are high level korean pros (even though PartinGs form is unknown), its not like they got through based on bracket luck. Almost no foreigner faced other foreigners, they took their spots fair and square and that is really cool to see. I hate the WCS system where koreans are locked into korea but don't blame that on the foreigners that are kicking ass. Its quite simple really, the best players should qualify, I believe that was the spirit of GSL and I also believed that was the reason you korean pro fans loved it so much. Half the fanbase cried that it was unfair when koreans went abroad and stole the money from the foreigner pros, the other half argued its fair the best players should go to the tournaments and earn the money. These korean pro fans that wanted them to be able to go any tournament is now crying that its unfair that foreigners are allowed to go to korea and win money if they are better than the koreans? Its like a bad tv show, the ultimate hypocrites. User was warned for this post What the hell is wrong with you, what's not cool with koreans winning WCS tournaments.? You all act like the trophies were won in a raffle, Duckdeok made it to the finals by beating Grubby. Jaedong did it by beating Scarlett. ............. All of the above are high level foreign pros, it's not like they got through based on bracket luck. I hate the WCS system but don't blame this on the koreans who are kicking ass. You see where this is going? If you were one of the guys who didn't like the previous system, then you are extremely hypocritical and not to be taken seriously. Its like a bad tv show, the ultimate hypocrites. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On March 29 2018 11:27 Circumstance wrote: The Global Starcraft League has a whole one eighth of its player base from a country other than the one we have been taught to fetishize. The sky is falling. Yeah the bottom eigth of the korean scene can't earn money because of an unfair system. Not a big deal, who cares about these players anyway? Only Dark, Classic, Inno etc are important the other players don't matter. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On March 29 2018 11:49 pvsnp wrote: TL should keep a counter of how many times region-lock has been discussed without any new points being raised. I'm all for discussion, but if you don't bring anything new to the table it just becomes an stale snorefest There was a discussion two days ago that covered everything that's been said here already, and in all likelihood, whatever is going to be said here in the near future Koreans used to have an organic advantage in their developed scene. Foreigners now have an artificial advantage in Blizzard's diktat. Korean SC2 is dying and will last a few more years at most. Foreign SC2 will probably follow it into the grave. The end. Well the debate generally rests on two key issues, which are: 1). How much did the developed scene help Koreans over foreigners? 2). How unfair is the current scene? and of course, it's a debate with no clear answer. Region locks will continue to be discussed for as long as foreigners face Koreans in the Global tournaments or in the GSL, because someone will either mention how unfair the system is now towards Koreans or be rather vitriolic towards foreigners. That being said, I think TRUE being in the GSL adds a new dimension to the debate, because he's the first Korean to play from the WCS circuit and qualify for the GSL, as Taeja, Hydra, and Polt when playing from America did not generally try to qualify for the GSL. It opens up the discussion for the possibility of teams sponsoring other Koreans to play in the WCS circuit as well as trying out for the GSL. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On March 29 2018 12:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Looks like Blizzard just threw some fuel on this fire https://twitter.com/psiTRUE/status/979202981856817152 What was that about Koreans being able to do the same thing and region-lock being fair? I said this yesterday: On March 27 2018 05:05 pvsnp wrote: People are overlooking Blizzard's role in all of this. It's a safe assumption that Blizzard wants region-lock to be a thing (since yknow, it actually is a thing and all). That being the case, if a bunch of Koreans can circumvent region-lock and continue with their pre-region-lock behavior, the natural reaction from Blizzard is to simply update the rules in order to keep the Koreans out of foreign tournaments. It goes something like this: 1. Region-lock is implemented to keep Koreans from dominating all the foreign tournaments 2. Multiple Koreans start using a legal loophole to dominate foreign tournaments 3. Blizzard steps in and bans this 4. Koreans have wasted a bunch of time, effort, and money Really, it's not surprising that none of the Koreans bother to try. What is surprising to me, however, is just how many people are defending region-lock as a "fair" system. Region-lock is blatantly unfair by definition. Whether it is justified is up for debate, but the fact that it is an unfair system is incontestable. An unfair system in the past doesn't mean an unfair system today suddenly becomes fair. Yes, a system can be both unfair and justified (perhaps region-lock is such a system, perhaps not). Foreigners like Scarlett, Major, etc, are taking advantage of an unfair system. These are all simple concepts, and I cannot fathom how or why people cannot understand them unless they're so myopically hidebound as to believe they or the players they cheer for must always have the moral high ground, even when such a thing doesn't exist. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26972830 | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 29 2018 12:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Looks like Blizzard just threw some fuel on this fire https://twitter.com/psiTRUE/status/979202981856817152 I've been saying for the past couple days that the rules indicate it's not possible for a Korean to play in both, despite people arguing with me that that isn't the case. But darn that just seems so unnecessary from blizzard. Allowing Scarlett and the others to play but not TRUE is so strange. If he counts as American under one set of rules he should count under another. | ||
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yangluphil
318 Posts
On March 29 2018 08:51 Kafka777 wrote: I think you are really missing the point. Foreign players have always or mostly had to pay for their visits to Korea from their own pocket, teams (with few exceptions) did not pay for this, just like it is now. There are foreigners in Korea coz they won prize money in wcs (but also they do get some support now, otherwise it would be impossible to rent the flat get pc's etc). Koreans did not only receive all the support that I mentioned earlier but they were also flown in and received free accommodation from tournament organizers like Homestory cup (this is not available to foreiggners who have to pay to participate in the cup), just to pick up a check. How can you even compare the passion foreign players have vs Koreans. Koreans have always had all their bills and accommodation paid while earning 10-50 x more from their teams.. Tournament organizers need viewership to generate revenue. To get viewership, you need big name players. They either needed to massively increase the prize pool to attract top players or invite/accomodate them. In that sense, korean players went overseas to collect the fair share of money they earned for the event organizers. Foreigners could have also benefited in that overall prize pool wouldn't be as large had top korean players not attended the tournaments. | ||
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