On February 14 2018 20:29 SidianTheBard wrote: I'll probably do a feedback post sometime later this week, unfortunately on weekdays I get too busy with work to be able to do much sc2 wise. Only map of mine that I was quite confident about was King's Cove so I"m a little surprised that map didn't make it but maybe there were issues with it I did not see.
Either way, congratulations to the winners, especially Solstice, Music & Zweck for being first timers in the finals, that's awesome work you guys and hope you all continue to map make in future ones!
<3 all the support you guys.
I was surprised when I saw that none of the ones we pushed through ended up being yours. For King's Cove basically the only thing wrong with it was that the 3rd is just so far away. The rest of the map was quite interesting but unfortunately that doesn't really matter when protoss can't even stabilize on 3 bases.
Is there going to be a separate thread like last time for asking for feedback from the judges? Or should we just ask here? (if so I'd appreciate feedback for Mayak Facility and Pharaoh)
Yeah there will be Ziggurat Hopefully it will be up by the weekend, or maybe I'll set it up today, and start answering people on the weekend? But yeah, keep an eye out it should be up soon™
I like the wide open pocket third of 16-bit but fear a protoss imbalance since they are most likely to do early air openings than the other races. Additionally I like A Face In Need Of A Fist but I worry that it will encourage constant all-ins from zerg.
The rest look fine
Hopefully I can find the time to watch the vods from the tournament so I can decide which map(s) I want to veto next season.
When the results of this TLMC were uploaded, I was disappointed that some of my better maps didn't make it, and that some weaker maps were finalists. That is very typical. I have my biases, as does everyone else. However, after some time, I usually cool down. While I often disagree with the judges' decisions, I know most of them were acting in good faith. This time, however, I think the organizers made a serious mistake. The panel of judges featured zero Terran pros, and had an extremely biased Protoss judge. I am not going to accuse anyone of being biased towards or against any specific mapmaker. I submitted with an alias specifically to avoid bias for or against me, and one of my maps was a finalist, so there certainly wasn't a vendetta against me. However, as a result of this slanted panel for TLMC10, I think some very strong maps were left out in favor of weaker maps that are more comfortable for a certain race.
Let's be honest. There was some bias involved, and it resulted in us not getting the best possible 16 maps. Terran has been struggling in recent months, especially vs Protoss. Now that Terran is finally becoming viable again, we're back to Zerg and Protoss favored maps.
After the results were leaked, some of us asked about maps on the edge of being a finalist. Snowfall and Bloom in particular were very close to making it, but they were kept out because of one specific TvP tank push. That's right, one Terran build may have possibly been strong in a match-up where Terran is struggling, and that was enough to kill some very good maps. Instead, we ended up with more massive two spawn rotational maps, which are almost certainly not going to be balanced.
Here are win-rates on some of the historically large two spawn maps:
Ascension to Aiur is 160x132, Mech Depot is 152x152, and Odyssey is 152x156. Each map clearly caused problems for Terran players. Odyssey was even outside what most pros would consider to be acceptable balance with Terran win-rates below 45% in two match-ups. If Terrans had any representation in the TLMC, they would have been able to explain why we're trying to trend away from these large map sizes.
Liquipedia win-rates do not tell the whole story, but they do have a large sample size. And most of us understand why maps that huge are a problem for Terran. We all know that Terrans need to be aggressive against Zerg and Protoss, and that isn't possible with some of the giant maps that became finalists. Bloom is 120x156, which isn't small. Snowfall is 144x144, which is actually quite large. Are we really going to pretend that one Terran push is going to dominate these normal sized maps? Maybe it's why the more reasonably sized Sovereign lost to Cerulean Fall. The macro category has more than its required number of finalists, so at least one could have easily been exchanged for a better sized map. Other possible finalists could have been re-categorized when it made sense to meet the quota.
The irony here is that a lot of features we put in place were to help Protoss while they were struggling against Zerg. The rocks on Bloom (which could be removed in one second during quality assurance) were there to make the third a little easier for Protoss to hold versus Zerg. The architecture of Snowfall is similarly structured to make PvZ balanced.
The judging situation likely also had implications on other categories. Maps like Midnight and Cyberspace probably made the Protoss judges unhappy, and with no alternative opinions from Terran, we were left with a very weak finalist instead. Cybros Relay Station clearly isn't up to the same standards as the rest of the finalists. While it is far safer than the alternatives, why not take a risk with a higher quality map that might be good? This is the rush category after all, and the judges never expected perfectly balanced rush maps in other TLMCs.
Next time, the organizers should make sure we have balanced representation among judges. Also, Terran players need to get off their asses and consider investing some time with the map scene.
EDIT: The original post was originally more accusatory towards me, hence why I replied so directly. The more personal matters have since been settled privately.
Ok, so I guess I'll need to respond to this to give my point of view of the matter. I'll start by saying if I hurt any map makers feelings (which I apparently did) on doing the judging for this TLMC then I do apologize. It was not my intention to anger anyone.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote:
Let's be honest. There was some bias involved, and it resulted in us not getting the best possible 16 maps. Terran has been struggling in recent months, especially vs Protoss. Now that Terran is finally becoming viable again, we're back to Zerg and Protoss favored maps.
I was asked to join the voting panel and after seeing that I was the only protoss player there it seemed like I was being brought on to give a protoss perspective on the maps submitted.
I was told to vote yes/no/maybe on the maps provided to me without any of the map maker's names on them. I then did so, trying to view them as objectively as possible while still voicing any concerns that I thought would be problematic. The other judges would then give their opinions and collectively we decided on what should or shouldn't have been included. Both PengWin and Snute were two of the other judges that also had their inputs into the maps and agreed with some of the concerns that I brought up. This was a collective process and not just one of me going on a personal tirade to get the most out of this TLMC.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: After the results were leaked, some of us asked about maps on the edge of being a finalist. Snowfall and Bloom in particular were very close to making it, but they were kept out because of one specific TvP tank push. That's right, one Terran build may have possibly been strong in a match-up where Terran is struggling, and that was enough to kill some very good maps. Instead, we ended up with more massive two spawn rotational maps, which are almost certainly not going to be balanced.
One concern that many protoss have had in the past is tank pushes ruining the match up. While it may not be something that has been seen as much recently, there's nothing saying that it won't come back into play if more strong maps cater to it. You said yourself, Terran is becoming viable again, so that potential strength cannot be ignored just because it hasn't been happening recently.
When there were so many maps that were submitted it becomes an issue of the lesser of multiple evils. Sure a lot of maps could be fixed with some adjustments, but when the issue became all of them needing to be adjusted by small adjustments we had to make a choice on which ones to put through or not. It was hard to decide on which to put through, I agree, but it was with the cooperation of all of the judges that the decisions were made. A good few of the other maps that were being discussed could have gone through in place of others, but unfortunately we can only pick 16.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: Here are win-rates on some of the historically large two spawn maps:
Ascension to Aiur is 160x132, Mech Depot is 152x152, and Odyssey is 152x156. Each map clearly caused problems for Terran players. Odyssey was even outside what most pros would consider to be acceptable balance with Terran win-rates below 45% in two match-ups. If Terrans had any representation in the TLMC, they would have been able to explain why we're trying to trend away from these large map sizes.
Liquipedia win-rates do not tell the whole story, but they do have a large sample size. And most of us understand why maps that huge are a problem for Terran. We all know that Terrans need to be aggressive against Zerg and Protoss, and that isn't possible with some of the giant maps that became finalists. Bloom is 120x156, which isn't small. Snowfall is 144x144, which is actually quite large. Are we really going to pretend that one Terran push is going to dominate these normal sized maps? Maybe it's why the more reasonably sized Sovereign lost to Cerulean Fall.
Actually, the reason Sovereign lost out was because of how small the map was in coordination with how far away and open its 3rd base is. Generally, the larger the map the more open it's 3rd is allowed to be, but when it's as small as Soveriegn is having a 3rd that far away, while also being on higher ground, would be difficult against Zerg. Even the zerg players in PengWin and Snute agreed with this and were the first ones to mention it in the Skype group to begin with.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: The macro category has more than its required number of finalists, so at least one could have easily been exchanged for a better sized map. Other possible finalists could have been re-categorized when it made sense to meet the quota.
What I will say here is that I agree that the panel would have obviously benefitted from having terrans in the judging process. It would have brought the issues to the table that you mentioned. However, the same argument could be made from that angle. Saying that a terran put down X maps from going through because of Terran bias and that the race has been underperforming, thus the judge went into the process with an agenda of making Terran as strong as possible.
As much as they would be voicing their concerns for their race, so was I for protoss. Did that mean I was trying to undermine the whole process and make my race the best represented? No. I saw I was the only protoss in a line of mostly zergs and some others so I thought I was brought on to give my perspective with my background. So I voiced the concerns that I believed deserved to be looked at and then the rest of the panel reviewed those concerns as well to get to the final vote. They all could have denied my concerns and overruled me just as easily as I brought them up.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: The irony here is that a lot of features we put in place were to help Protoss while they were struggling against Zerg. The rocks on Bloom (which could be removed in one second during quality assurance) were there to make the third a little easier for Protoss to hold versus Zerg.
I don't know how having some rocks on one of three ramps leading into the 3rd base makes taking the 3rd vs zerg any easier. No zerg is going to be using the furthest ramp to get into the 3rd base, they would just be going through either the rightmost one or the one in the middle. Even if they wanted to do a dual pronged attack on the natural and 3rd they would have the time to kill the rocks anyway However, I wasn't the only one who said something against the map as PengWin gave a No and Snute a maybe.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: The judging situation likely also had implications on other categories. Maps like Midnight and Cyberspace probably made the Protoss judges unhappy
Actually, for Midnight every single one of the panel members gave it a No except for Templar who gave it a Maybe. And for Cyberspace Kantuva was the only one to give it a Yes.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: and with no alternative opinions from Terran, we were left with a very weak finalist instead. Cybros Relay Station clearly isn't up to the same standards as the rest of the finalists. While it is far safer than the alternatives, why not take a risk with a higher quality map that might be good? This is the rush category after all, and the judges never expected perfectly balanced rush maps in other TLMCs.
Snute specifically thought that Cybros was one of the best maps, if not the best map, submitted into this TLMC and said he thought it would be the next GOAT of SC2 maps. I also think it is a strong map.
This is a theme with map makers and players though. Players are generally going to want more maps that are closer to standard instead of taking huge risks. That issue has been debated continuously in the past but with maps like Dasan Station, Battle on the Boardwalk, and Abiogenesis getting into the ladder pool there was some concerns on some maps being the next insta veto for 90% o the playerbase.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote: Next time, the organizers should make sure we have balanced representation among judges. Also, Terran players need to get off their asses and consider investing some time with the map scene.
Again, I agree that there should be at least one representative for each race on the panel. However, I have already decided that I won't be a protoss representative in the future.
Do I think I got in over my head by accepting a simple offer? Yes absolutely. I have learned a lot about map making and what goes into maps during and after this, and conclude that suppose I am not fully fit to judge such a large variety of maps.
I was only voicing concerns that I believed should be mentioned and then let the discussion of the panel revolve around those concerns in one way or the other that resulted in what we have now. But those were not the only things being mentioned. They were not the only concerns that were brought up and it surely was not the intended focus of the entire judging process.
Once again, I apologize to any map makers that feel I personally attacked them with how I voted, it was not at all my intentions and I simply was accepting an offer.
Are 4 players maps just out of the question these days? I always thought they were pretty fun to play on. I get that they can sometimes be problematic at the highest level but it's sad to see them go because of it.
On February 15 2018 19:13 algue wrote: Are 4 players maps just out of the question these days? I always thought they were pretty fun to play on. I get that they can sometimes be problematic at the highest level but it's sad to see them go because of it.
i think they can make people lose even at lower levels... things as simple as scouting the wrong direction and dying to a rush.
I really really really really like 16-bit and I really hope that map gets put into the ladder.. its just Aesthetically so nice and I love the layout of the map, a lot of maps don't have in base naturals on ladder lately o-o all I could want more from it is just more airspace for libs and medivacs
Ok, so I can't address everything right now, but I'll chime on on some things
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote:Maybe it's why the more reasonably sized Sovereign lost to Cerulean Fall. The macro category has more than its required number of finalists, so at least one could have easily been exchanged for a better sized map. Other possible finalists could have been re-categorized when it made sense to meet the quota.
Sovereign didnt "lost" to Cerulean Falls, they were submitted to different categories, and being completely honest, I think had Sovereign been sent to Standard, and Cerulean to Macro, I think both maps would have become finalists. Yet, because Sovereign is more aggressive than several other maps in the Macro category it didnt live up to the category it was sent to, mostly because of its comparatively open third bases, specially the highground one, I think, had Sovereign had those diagonal rocks rotated 90º and protecting the highground third, then it would have rather easily breakdanced into the finalists.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote:The irony here is that a lot of features we put in place were to help Protoss while they were struggling against Zerg. The rocks on Bloom (which could be removed in one second during quality assurance) were there to make the third a little easier for Protoss to hold versus Zerg.
We will not, repeat, will not make balance changes to maps on the QA phase of things, It is a very fine line to walk on, but if we deem that a map requires balance changes in order for it to be "great", then we will most often than not lean on another map which is already "good", but does not require changes.
Why is this? Because y'all had time to make sure your maps are on a balanced state, the maps we take into TLMC are considered final. There are no "backsies" here.
Adding an early iteration phase to TLMC might easily mean adding 2 extra weeks of time to TLMC, and because of the increased work load, then it means that judges wouldnt be volunteers, they would need to be paid positions, and that's a huge can of worms compared to how things work now, not to even dare mention all the scheduling that would need to take place, on TL's side & Blizzard.
"Believe me", we wish we could do these kind of things, couple maps got actually cut for dumb reasons which could have been fixed on 7 seconds of "work", but it is your responsibility as Mapmakers to deliver finished works.
So yeah, QA phase, is Quality Assurance for the TLMC tournament, not "Map rebalancing phase".
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote:Cybros Relay Station clearly isn't up to the same standards as the rest of the finalists. While it is far safer than the alternatives, why not take a risk with a higher quality map that might be good? This is the rush category after all, and the judges never expected perfectly balanced rush maps in other TLMCs.
That, to me is a way of shadowy saying the map looks "ugly", TLMC isnt a contest designed to find the prettiest maps out there, if your map looks alright, because you cared and put work into creating a nice enviroment, that's fine, but what's key is that the map "works". Imo in the past TLMC has failed to give maps which "work", but personally, I dont see that being the case with Cybros.
On February 15 2018 13:39 Timmay wrote:Next time, the organizers should make sure we have balanced representation among judges. Also, Terran players need to get off their asses and consider investing some time with the map scene.
Hopefully you could help us trying to poach us some T GM/Pro's to judge next time, Im sure Plexa and Templar would be interested for the only reason that it would light up their workloads.
If the naming conventions that led to Blackpink and Dreamcatcher continue, for all we know we might see the Blizzcon finals played on a map named Weki Meki...
On February 15 2018 05:23 Gemini_19 wrote: I was surprised when I saw that none of the ones we pushed through ended up being yours. For King's Cove basically the only thing wrong with it was that the 3rd is just so far away. The rest of the map was quite interesting but unfortunately that doesn't really matter when protoss can't even stabilize on 3 bases.
Just curious what other feedback you had considering the 3rd base on King's is a shorter distance and much more easily defended than a handful of the other finalist standard and macro maps.
CYBROS RELAY STATION absolutely needs some work aesthetics wise. I usually don't mind weird texturing but this just looks sloppy
Despite being a rush map, I think DREAMCATCHER could use a slightly longer rush distance with some rocks blocking direct access to the dreamcatcher's center for example
Other than that i'd say that the maps choosen by the judges this TLMC edition are quite good! Nice job
On February 15 2018 19:13 algue wrote: Are 4 players maps just out of the question these days? I always thought they were pretty fun to play on. I get that they can sometimes be problematic at the highest level but it's sad to see them go because of it.
i think they can make people lose even at lower levels... things as simple as scouting the wrong direction and dying to a rush.
Not only this, but they make for less interesting maps because the corners (or wherever the mains are) need to be designed as a main base. So at the bases where nobody spawns there will always be this high-ground dead-end with a tucked in natural, which is bad design in my opinion. It's better to have a 2-player map that is designed optimally for the spawn points.
Not a bad map at all, main/nat is great. I believe the gold bases are completely useless and won't accomplish much at all since they are such aggressive placements. The other part about this map I dislike is that if you expand horizontally you can get five base and only have to defend two 3wide ramps and only 3wide non-ramp choke. Eventually, you'll just park your army between the 3rd/4th (around the gold ramp) and you can not move a muscle and hold 5 bases. It's not that fun.
There are a lot of abusive spots for tank pushes (which eliminated many other maps) such as behind the forward 3rd minerals, behind the gold base minerals and behind the 3rd horizontal base minerals sieging the natural or eventually the horizontal 4th base into the 3rd base.
The 6 & 9 bases will never get used because they are too close to the opponent, especially since that's the main why they have to expand, might as well just get rid of those bases. Also, what's the point of the random ramp with rocks on it toward the middle? It doesn't accomplish much at all, it doesn't help much early or mid game, it's useless, just a wasted path with rocks.
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16-Bit - 140x156 - Macro
Another in-base natural map, yeaaa! I love the fact that you can siege in the middle (by the middle 4th base) and you can crush the main, nat and third! It's such an abusive drop position. Let's not even mention a siege tank or two behind the middle rocks (by the forward 4th) and you can keep pushing and sieging everything until you eventually take down those rocks. After the rocks are down, this map is very "3rd to 3rd too straight" so it should be auto disqualified, because that's what happened last tlmc, but hey, add rocks and it doesn't matter.
The watchtowers give waaaay too much vision. Unless you take out middle rocks or take the super quick path in the middle you will always be seen. It's not good gameplay at all.
The other base side about this map, is that no where in the entire map has a larger than 3x WG choke. How are zerg suppose to flank, surround or engage into anything? It makes it even worse when you have an in-base natural and can easily turtle on 3 base and basically defend everything. Good luck defending drops that abuse the forward 4th and your inbase natural. To defend you'll have to swing from your forward 4th, to your out-base natural, into your main, down into your inbase natural, only to go back again. If terran add siege tanks by your forward 4th, you're only that much more screwed.
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Kherrisan Rift - 152x152 - Macro
Not only will this map be easily abusible for proxy stargates, it'll be ridiculous to hold many proxy whatever. There are absolutely no forward bases which mean you just hug the entire outside of the map, which is really stupid and really boring, it makes games constantly be defensive the entire time.
The worst part about this map, besides very abusive proxy, lib, drop and siege tank spots, are that the overall flow of the map is quite limited. I don't know why the included the random doodad wall directly in the middle because that completely limits paths. If you want to flank, or do anything with your army you completely put yourself out of place. You have to move around a ton of choked off pathways which make to boring gameplay. Expect tons of doom drops, proxies, and overall boring gameplay on this map.
Also, what the hell is that drock tower and random drock by the 3rd? How abusive is that? How stupid is that? Ugh... But hey, super choked, abusive bases that are anti-zerg? May as well include it!
Ideas that may make it better.
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Para Site - 140x152 - Macro
First off, let's see, protoss either take a very far away 3rd, or a completely open one. As Gemini said, bad 3rd, auto veto. But at least this map got into a finalist. I can see a shit load of abusive siege, lib and drop spots. The 6/9 bases are very awkward with movement and drop space, you really can't defend them against air units, aka, GL Libs / Oracles crushing everything. Could you imagine a P/Z taking the horizontal 3rd and siege tank sitting up by the forward base or even a tank/lib sitting down the ramp to the triangle 3rd crushing anything that runs down the main ramp? GG, poor pathing placement imo. Let's not even mention tank pushes on the horizontal 3rd sieging the natural being very OP.
Besides the many many many random abusible spots, it's not a bad map. If a non-terran can get over 2 base you'll probably see some fun games on this, but good luck getting that.
Why don't you include space behind your minerals for defensive buildings or at least units to get behind them to attack air units or stop drops? /sigh
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Blueshift - 136x136 - Standard
First off, I love that the master troll himself, NegativeZero can just rotate Catalyst 90 degrees and retexture it and judges will vote it into another finalist spot. It's a good map, it's very standard and doesn't offer much new and many players will love this. The worst part. We already have this map on ladder now. It's called Catalyst. Load up Catalyst, tilt your head 90 degrees and you'll see Blueshift.
But hey, standard is standard and everybody loves standard so we may as well vote this standard map into the finalists because catalyst is standard and catalyst is blueshift so if catalyst is standard and blueshift is catalyst then blueshift is standard. Make sense?
Also, unless you expand vertically, good luck holding many bases, they are so damn close to each other you'll blink and armies will be at your base. Check it, forward 3rd to forward 3rd is about 15 seconds apart. zzzz. But hey, Catalyst worked, so Blueshift should too eh?
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Fracture - 144x122 - Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. Weird...since this 3rd base is ridiculously open, far away and abusive. But hey, let's be biased, why not. This is a good map if you are able to expand vertically, unfortunately protoss and possibly terran won't be able to do that, instead you have to expand horizontally, which is further away and also more vulnerable, especially with drops, tanks, libs, mutas, oracles, warp prisms, aka, anything that normally happens in the game now a day.
It's a good map, if only the triangle 3rd base second ramp was moved to make it a little more defensible. Not much to say outside of that, it's a good map imo.
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Cerulean Fall - 148x144 - Standard
I honestly don't have much to say about this map because I think it is really good. Lots of paths to flank, lots of paths to attack, not very abusive for drops/libs/sieges. Maaaaybe a siege on the horizontal 3rd sieging into the natural could be strong? But wouldn't be that bad since it can't hit the gas/base. Probably one of the better TLMC finalists. Congrats.
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Artana - 144x152 -Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. 144x152 is a standard map? Holy balls, standard is getting big. The biggest problem with this map is that the horizontal base is soooo much farther away from the triangle 3rd so you will most likely always take the triangle 3rd base.
I feel some tanks by the middle rocks sieging into the 3rd/nat could be pretty strong, also drops, since you're not almost forced to go triangle 3rd will be pretty strong. Also any siege unit by the 9/3 bases sieging into the triangle 3rd will be really op, especially since they can take the high ground and siege into the 3rd and the defender is forced to run up a 2 wide ramp to defend it, which then they can easily pick up and drop into the main, forcing you to run ALLLLLLL the way back. zzzzzz. But yeah, w/e.
If you make the horizontal 3rd base more desirable it would be a good map, but right now, it's sooo far away, and waaay too risky that it makes the map kinda...bleh. I suppose the only good part is the map is so big compared to other "standard" (shouldn't this size be macro?) maps that it should be alright if that expand horizontally.
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Lost and Found - 144x130 - Standard
Honestly, not much to say about this map. It's good. Really good. It's probably the best map of the TLMC10 finalists. Good job Zweck. =)
Bases are close enough, plenty of flanks, not too abusive air/tank/lib spots, not too large, not too small. Zweck did it, he really did. ___________
Digital Frontier - 132x148 - Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot.
Those tank pushes that disqualifed many other maps...did you look at this map? You place a tank vertically below the natural it'll fuck everything up and force you to come through a two wide ramp to defend it. But hey, it's -0, fuck balance, jack off because the god himself created another map. The worst part is you either expand vertically, which is closer, but also harder to defense and keeps you open or you expand triangle, which then you can easily get abused by drops, harass and tanks/libs. You'll be running all around your main, nat & 3rd trying to defend while the entire time they will be training your base nat to nat since it's a complete straight line.
Also, so much LOSB everywhere that proxies may ran supreme. Hiding buildings behind all of those and crossing your fingers that the enemy doesn't scout every single LOSB...zzzz.
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Arashi - 122x148 - Rush
I think my favorite part about this "rush" map is that it has a longer nat to nat distance than other standard maps lol. If this map EVER gets over 3 base vs 3 base...I don't even know. Outside the first 3 bases every other base is so close to every other base that it makes the map pretty stupid, especially since the nat and 3rd chokes are a complete straight line into each other. Like, what's the point of the 1 & 7 o clock bases, they'll never get used, it'll never get to a macro game, it's another downfall of the "rush" category. So manyu people think you need a super short rush distance that is a small map which isn't the case, but hey, it's a weak category so of course weak maps win in it. Honestly, get rid of this category and just include 3 more standard/macro maps, it's a waste.
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Cybros Relay Station - 136x120 - Rush
Small, Very Choked and limited pathing. FINALIST SPOT!!! Yeaaaa!!!! The best part about this map. "How should I make this base a little more desirable?" Shit a rock and a cactus in the ground!!! Fk Yeah!!!
Not only are the first four bases a complete rip off of Odyssey, the map is so much smaller, which is terrible, the other corners are not well done, the texturing sucks (that shouldn't be a judging issue...) and there are quite a few droppable and tank abusive spots. Hello behind the forward 4th and by the natural two way spot, zzzzz.
I heard you like to flank your units...JK, to flank it'll take forever. But hey, at least we can fall back to the 2x or 3x ramps everywhere in the middle to screw you over. Too small, too agressive, too, meh. But hey, congrats Finalist!
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Dreamcatcher - 136x136 - Rush
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot.
Super open and abusible middle ground? Sign me up! I hope we can get many tank drops, libs, marine drops, over lord drops. Please please please! If you wanted a map that doesn't offer any defensive options, vote for Dreamcatcher. I can't even count on my hands how many abusive spots there are on this map, let alone how close bases are once you get after your natural. If it was a rotational map it would have been much better, but the fact that unless you take down the rock towers you get a complete straight line to the nat to nat (or 3rd to 3rd) it makes the map kind of op. Also, if the rock towers go down, part a lib or siege behind it and GG, good luck.
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System Shock - 138x142 - New
Soooo...it has air blockers between the nat and nat and that's new? Gotcha, make sense. The rest of the map is completely standard. It's basically new gettysberg but without any aggressive bases and instead all defensive bases. The "new" section won't do jack shit because running through that tiny choke is suicide and the air blockers will just be more annoying then anything. At that point, this might as well just be another Standard map.
But hey, that's "new" for you, why do anything new when you can just make a standard map, throw some "air blockers in" that won't do jack shit for the game and still win. zzzzzz. Honestly, if this was standard, it'd be fine, I wouldn't complain much because the base layout is good, but for this to take a finalist spot for a "new" style of map...seriously?
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Backpfeifengesicht - 124x152 - New
A backdoor into your base and mineral walls...which can be dropped, warped over and blinked over. Once again, another "new" map where you will expand horizontally because it's the safest spot. You'll ignore the gold base, you'll ignore any forward bases at all. They will never get used. The base layout will get abused from drops, libs, sieges, blink, warp ins, etc etc, that it will make it a stupid map to play on. The worst part, there are ramps which take the 9 o clock watch tower, giving you vision, defend that, warp in across the gold base, free harass.
The forward half base? Why? It's already super open and will never get takened compared to the other 3rd base? Why make it a half base, it's harder to hold...make it tougher? Riiiight...
Another stupid map with nothing "new" winning the "new" category. At this point, might as well just make another Standard map and throw in a random gold base and maybe you'll win the "new" category.
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Travincal - 146x148 - New
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. (See where this is going?)
The best part about this "new" map is you can get 4 or 5 bases before the "new" aspect of the map even makes a difference. Is that a problem? Nah, it's just the stupid as shit category which is called "new". I do think this is the "best new" map of the bunch because there are tons of stone walls which block vision of everything around the middle/3/9 spots of the map.
The 12/6 bases are useless, not sure why they are included as they will never get taken, they are too open and too close to your opponent. Also, I think there are too many LOSB by the forward 3rd, it's already quick open with a lot of abusive spots available for the attack, why make it that much harder to defense.
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Overall Rankings:
1: Lost and Found 2: Cerulean Fall 3: Treachery 4: Blueshift 5: Travincal 6: System Shock 7: Para Site 8: 16-Bit 9: Fracture 10: Digital Frontier 11: Artana 12: Dreamcatcher 13: Kherrisan Rift 14: Arashi 15: Backpfeifengesicht 16: Cybros Relay Station
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Overall Winner: Zweck.
Good job Zweck, your maps were the best of the best this tournament. You definitely deserve the #1 spot.
So this is going to be my first real response to somebody, if in ever. I may jump around point to point as I'm going to look at the maps in a random order. So why don't I begin.
16-Bit - 140x156 - Macro
Another in-base natural map, yeaaa! I love the fact that you can siege in the middle (by the middle 4th base) and you can crush the main, nat and third! It's such an abusive drop position. Let's not even mention a siege tank or two behind the middle rocks (by the forward 4th) and you can keep pushing and sieging everything until you eventually take down those rocks. After the rocks are down, this map is very "3rd to 3rd too straight" so it should be auto disqualified, because that's what happened last tlmc, but hey, add rocks and it doesn't matter.
16bit, a map I honestly. Looked quickly over when it became a finalist. This map has stuff like like, simple design, red vs blue. FPS that doesn't want to die. But when reading what you said about the map, and me making this response. I opened up the map in the editor for a second time, and not for learning reasons. And you're not wrong. I'm a terran, although not master and above. I do understand when a siege spot is too good.
The Xel'naga towers do their job, as Xel'naga towers. If only it didn't basically cover the whole map, and if you hate turtle shells. Oh boy this map is not for you. As you said Sidian. You can easily turtle on 3 bases, not to mention you can grab the 4th tight to the main, defend 2 locations and watch the rocks and thats now a shell thats hard to break but more possible. Liberators alone can make mining in the back nat/forward nat a living nightmare. And like you said Sidian. siegetanks en libs have 3 strong spots. And just getting to those spots is well, not easy. I would of insta DQed this map for that point, but aww heck the map looks good. Bases are reasonable in most cases, and back nat! who doesn't love a back nat as terran & toss right?
Blueshift - 136x136 - Standard
First off, I love that the master troll himself, NegativeZero can just rotate Catalyst 90 degrees and retexture it and judges will vote it into another finalist spot. It's a good map, it's very standard and doesn't offer much new and many players will love this. The worst part. We already have this map on ladder now. It's called Catalyst. Load up Catalyst, tilt your head 90 degrees and you'll see Blueshift.
But hey, standard is standard and everybody loves standard so we may as well vote this standard map into the finalists because catalyst is standard and catalyst is blueshift so if catalyst is standard and blueshift is catalyst then blueshift is standard. Make sense?
Also, unless you expand vertically, good luck holding many bases, they are so damn close to each other you'll blink and armies will be at your base. Check it, forward 3rd to forward 3rd is about 15 seconds apart. zzzz. But hey, Catalyst worked, so Blueshift should too eh?
I mean, the map is somewhat different. But also makes things difficult. Just taking the third can be difficult, heck good luck trying to take the triangle third. Siege tanks with bio or mech can easily push into that base and siege the main! Honestly the map is horrible. But its also not amazing. Getting late game on this map would be like spotting a unicorn, you'd be insane to fail to win the game as terran on this map. Same with toss. Zerg is fine on this map, basically ZvX on catalyst but somewhat different.
Para Site - 140x152 - Macro
First off, let's see, protoss either take a very far away 3rd, or a completely open one. As Gemini said, bad 3rd, auto veto. But at least this map got into a finalist. I can see a shit load of abusive siege, lib and drop spots. The 6/9 bases are very awkward with movement and drop space, you really can't defend them against air units, aka, GL Libs / Oracles crushing everything. Could you imagine a P/Z taking the horizontal 3rd and siege tank sitting up by the forward base or even a tank/lib sitting down the ramp to the triangle 3rd crushing anything that runs down the main ramp? GG, poor pathing placement imo. Let's not even mention tank pushes on the horizontal 3rd sieging the natural being very OP.
Besides the many many many random abusible spots, it's not a bad map. If a non-terran can get over 2 base you'll probably see some fun games on this, but good luck getting that.
Why don't you include space behind your minerals for defensive buildings or at least units to get behind them to attack air units or stop drops? /sigh
Para site, the parasite of the finalist (had to) Hm let me casually look at the fact that both thirds would be a nightmare to take and hold as toss, and even as terran. as one is open meaning zerg can have a hayday. and the other one is far, also able to be sieged by siegetanks. Same problem if I'm correct a map I liked from IronmanSC and that was Snowfall! This map makes it look easy to do any marine siegetank all-in with liberator support. And toss would just lose against terran if they thought taking the low ground third is a good idea! Zerg well, its zerg. they'll adapt quickly. But the map is generally against PvT and PvZ if they take the more open third.
Cerulean Fall - 148x144 - Standard
I honestly don't have much to say about this map because I think it is really good. Lots of paths to flank, lots of paths to attack, not very abusive for drops/libs/sieges. Maaaaybe a siege on the horizontal 3rd sieging into the natural could be strong? But wouldn't be that bad since it can't hit the gas/base. Probably one of the better TLMC finalists. Congrats.
And you would not be wrong, this map is really good. And it was basically Sovereign flipped differently textured minor base edits and submitted to the standard category! Basically making the macro category needing to be renamed 'turtles wet dreams' as its true. Make an aggressive macro map, seems standard in the wrong category. Just great ._. It's still one of the better TLMC finalist. In fact I was more happy to see this map in the finalist than a few maps I may rant on later.
Kherrisan Rift - 152x152 - Macro
Not only will this map be easily abusible for proxy stargates, it'll be ridiculous to hold many proxy whatever. There are absolutely no forward bases which mean you just hug the entire outside of the map, which is really stupid and really boring, it makes games constantly be defensive the entire time.
The worst part about this map, besides very abusive proxy, lib, drop and siege tank spots, are that the overall flow of the map is quite limited. I don't know why the included the random doodad wall directly in the middle because that completely limits paths. If you want to flank, or do anything with your army you completely put yourself out of place. You have to move around a ton of choked off pathways which make to boring gameplay. Expect tons of doom drops, proxies, and overall boring gameplay on this map.
Also, what the hell is that drock tower and random drock by the 3rd? How abusive is that? How stupid is that? Ugh... But hey, super choked, abusive bases that are anti-zerg? May as well include it!
I honestly like hugging the side of maps, allows center to be constant battles. (like abyssal reef when people bother to go into the center of the map) But this macro map that I really like, yes thing get rather difficult. any proxy alone can be very power and I bet a marine siegetank liberator push will be powerful as well. If only that push was proxied due to center basically cutting it self off twice making the rush distance farther, it looks cool yes. But hinders terran. Most likely for the best though. GJ on making it to the finals though. I feel sad for all the zerg bodies that might pile up soon :/
Fracture - 144x122 - Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. Weird...since this 3rd base is ridiculously open, far away and abusive. But hey, let's be biased, why not. This is a good map if you are able to expand vertically, unfortunately protoss and possibly terran won't be able to do that, instead you have to expand horizontally, which is further away and also more vulnerable, especially with drops, tanks, libs, mutas, oracles, warp prisms, aka, anything that normally happens in the game now a day.
It's a good map, if only the triangle 3rd base second ramp was moved to make it a little more defensible. Not much to say outside of that, it's a good map imo.
I honestly like fracture for its design, I like that the map is basically ice en snow used correctly. But uhh, thirds far and taking it leaves you open to mutas. Zerg is preetty damn good on this map also. It's also a standard map... Would be safer submitted as a rush due to its size but hey its Avex I'm talking about. He made fracture and its a finalist! and not a bad map either. Its good, I'm happy that its a finalist. And thats all I need to say.
Artana - 144x152 -Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. 144x152 is a standard map? Holy balls, standard is getting big. The biggest problem with this map is that the horizontal base is soooo much farther away from the triangle 3rd so you will most likely always take the triangle 3rd base.
I feel some tanks by the middle rocks sieging into the 3rd/nat could be pretty strong, also drops, since you're not almost forced to go triangle 3rd will be pretty strong. Also any siege unit by the 9/3 bases sieging into the triangle 3rd will be really op, especially since they can take the high ground and siege into the 3rd and the defender is forced to run up a 2 wide ramp to defend it, which then they can easily pick up and drop into the main, forcing you to run ALLLLLLL the way back. zzzzzz. But yeah, w/e.
If you make the horizontal 3rd base more desirable it would be a good map, but right now, it's sooo far away, and waaay too risky that it makes the map kinda...bleh. I suppose the only good part is the map is so big compared to other "standard" (shouldn't this size be macro?) maps that it should be alright if that expand horizontally.
Honestly, I got a bit blinded by how good this map looked when I looked at the map to learn off of it. I love the Xel'naga towers and how's it designed. But the triangle third is a bit far, generally defending the third is rough with the slightest amount of miss information. Also a pretty large standard, but like you said Sidian, expanding horizontally is alright. Drops will be good and this map generally would favor most drop play.
Lost and Found - 144x130 - Standard
Honestly, not much to say about this map. It's good. Really good. It's probably the best map of the TLMC10 finalists. Good job Zweck. =)
Bases are close enough, plenty of flanks, not too abusive air/tank/lib spots, not too large, not too small. Zweck did it, he really did.
Love the map, its amazing! Does standard perfectly. It's lighting hurts my eyes but thats a little thing. GJ Zweck, you made a pure ladder quality map! Well in my eyes.
Arashi - 122x148 - Rush
I think my favorite part about this "rush" map is that it has a longer nat to nat distance than other standard maps lol. If this map EVER gets over 3 base vs 3 base...I don't even know. Outside the first 3 bases every other base is so close to every other base that it makes the map pretty stupid, especially since the nat and 3rd chokes are a complete straight line into each other. Like, what's the point of the 1 & 7 o clock bases, they'll never get used, it'll never get to a macro game, it's another downfall of the "rush" category. So manyu people think you need a super short rush distance that is a small map which isn't the case, but hey, it's a weak category so of course weak maps win in it. Honestly, get rid of this category and just include 3 more standard/macro maps, it's a waste.
This map seems better for standard really. I like it though, its interesting in design and Ii like interesting designs. But this map does not suit rush, this map getting to a macro game would be amazing. taking a fourth and fifth would also be magical. Don't need more words as I have none.
Digital Frontier - 132x148 - Standard
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot.
Those tank pushes that disqualifed many other maps...did you look at this map? You place a tank vertically below the natural it'll fuck everything up and force you to come through a two wide ramp to defend it. But hey, it's -0, fuck balance, jack off because the god himself created another map. The worst part is you either expand vertically, which is closer, but also harder to defense and keeps you open or you expand triangle, which then you can easily get abused by drops, harass and tanks/libs. You'll be running all around your main, nat & 3rd trying to defend while the entire time they will be training your base nat to nat since it's a complete straight line.
Also, so much LOSB everywhere that proxies may ran supreme. Hiding buildings behind all of those and crossing your fingers that the enemy doesn't scout every single LOSB...zzzz.
This map, well... It's alright? To get things straight, proxies would be too good due to buildings hiding every. Taking the triangle third is the best option. But can be abused and abused over and over again. As the vertical third, just no. You're not zerg, so don't try terran/toss. It's just too risky X_X well vs zerg. TvT TvP PvT PvP you can take the third and it wouldn't be as risky.
Backpfeifengesicht - 124x152 - New
A backdoor into your base and mineral walls...which can be dropped, warped over and blinked over. Once again, another "new" map where you will expand horizontally because it's the safest spot. You'll ignore the gold base, you'll ignore any forward bases at all. They will never get used. The base layout will get abused from drops, libs, sieges, blink, warp ins, etc etc, that it will make it a stupid map to play on. The worst part, there are ramps which take the 9 o clock watch tower, giving you vision, defend that, warp in across the gold base, free harass.
The forward half base? Why? It's already super open and will never get takened compared to the other 3rd base? Why make it a half base, it's harder to hold...make it tougher? Riiiight...
Another stupid map with nothing "new" winning the "new" category. At this point, might as well just make another Standard map and throw in a random gold base and maybe you'll win the "new" category.
the gold base is interesting in design, but nobody would take it. The forward bases are weird, the half base would just not be taken due to its location :/ this map doesn't show anything new besides terran getting screwed over if they mine the gold base. Same with toss, as zerg can go from a ZvZ thats far-ish to a ZvZ thats basically beside each other!
Travincal - 146x148 - New
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot. (See where this is going?)
The best part about this "new" map is you can get 4 or 5 bases before the "new" aspect of the map even makes a difference. Is that a problem? Nah, it's just the stupid as shit category which is called "new". I do think this is the "best new" map of the bunch because there are tons of stone walls which block vision of everything around the middle/3/9 spots of the map.
The 12/6 bases are useless, not sure why they are included as they will never get taken, they are too open and too close to your opponent. Also, I think there are too many LOSB by the forward 3rd, it's already quick open with a lot of abusive spots available for the attack, why make it that much harder to defense.
Diablo would be my city if I never got into sc2. Either way, I love the map. It does have a good new feature, after people get there when taking their fifth base and bothering to attack. Blink stalkers can be scary. Frames RIP, but other than that Sidian you said it all.
System Shock - 138x142 - New
Soooo...it has air blockers between the nat and nat and that's new? Gotcha, make sense. The rest of the map is completely standard. It's basically new gettysberg but without any aggressive bases and instead all defensive bases. The "new" section won't do jack shit because running through that tiny choke is suicide and the air blockers will just be more annoying then anything. At that point, this might as well just be another Standard map.
But hey, that's "new" for you, why do anything new when you can just make a standard map, throw some "air blockers in" that won't do jack shit for the game and still win. zzzzzz. Honestly, if this was standard, it'd be fine, I wouldn't complain much because the base layout is good, but for this to take a finalist spot for a "new" style of map...seriously?
The only new thing to this map is the Xel'naga watch towers that can see the opposite natural. Drops, nope don't try. Oh you want to try? haha air blockers. Something even pros don't notice until their medivac/warpprism is flying in place into it and not trying to go around :/ On another notes it just an easily defense standard map. well defensive first 3-4 bases.
Treachery - 144x156 - Macro:
Not a bad map at all, main/nat is great. I believe the gold bases are completely useless and won't accomplish much at all since they are such aggressive placements. The other part about this map I dislike is that if you expand horizontally you can get five base and only have to defend two 3wide ramps and only 3wide non-ramp choke. Eventually, you'll just park your army between the 3rd/4th (around the gold ramp) and you can not move a muscle and hold 5 bases. It's not that fun.
There are a lot of abusive spots for tank pushes (which eliminated many other maps) such as behind the forward 3rd minerals, behind the gold base minerals and behind the 3rd horizontal base minerals sieging the natural or eventually the horizontal 4th base into the 3rd base.
The 6 & 9 bases will never get used because they are too close to the opponent, especially since that's the main why they have to expand, might as well just get rid of those bases. Also, what's the point of the random ramp with rocks on it toward the middle? It doesn't accomplish much at all, it doesn't help much early or mid game, it's useless, just a wasted path with rocks.
The map isn't bad at all. Which is true. See no point in the golds though. Sidian you basically explain all that I see is a general concern. Turtling on this map is also easy as its a macro map :D although not as easy as 16bit you can turtle on 3base and make complete use of drops and liberators. Fun ._.
Dreamcatcher - 136x136 - Rush
As Gemini would say, this 3rd is too far with too many openings so protoss can't get a 3rd so fuck the rest of the map, it's auto DQ'd. Oh wait...no it wasn't...it's in the finalist spot.
Super open and abusible middle ground? Sign me up! I hope we can get many tank drops, libs, marine drops, over lord drops. Please please please! If you wanted a map that doesn't offer any defensive options, vote for Dreamcatcher. I can't even count on my hands how many abusive spots there are on this map, let alone how close bases are once you get after your natural. If it was a rotational map it would have been much better, but the fact that unless you take down the rock towers you get a complete straight line to the nat to nat (or 3rd to 3rd) it makes the map kind of op. Also, if the rock towers go down, part a lib or siege behind it and GG, good luck.
This map attempted to grab my dreams as it is beautiful. But just general aggression without defensive option kinda stabs this map. But its a rush map. The bases on this map only get harder for terran/toss to hold vs zerg the more you go towards to bot left. Meaning if you obtain a macro game, you must either be a god. lucky, or the zerg just passed out on the keyboard and wont stop droning.
Cybros Relay Station - 136x120 - Rush
Small, Very Choked and limited pathing. FINALIST SPOT!!! Yeaaaa!!!! The best part about this map. "How should I make this base a little more desirable?" Shit a rock and a cactus in the ground!!! Fk Yeah!!!
Not only are the first four bases a complete rip off of Odyssey, the map is so much smaller, which is terrible, the other corners are not well done, the texturing sucks (that shouldn't be a judging issue...) and there are quite a few droppable and tank abusive spots. Hello behind the forward 4th and by the natural two way spot, zzzzz.
I heard you like to flank your units...JK, to flank it'll take forever. But hey, at least we can fall back to the 2x or 3x ramps everywhere in the middle to screw you over. Too small, too agressive, too, meh. But hey, congrats Finalist!
If one map could contain all of my salt in the finalist 16. This map would be overflowing it it. To get things straight, taking a third? well the triangle third has a random rock and cactus which serves no general point. The other third can be sieged to hell. The rush distance is lethal when a 12 pool is done due to how quickly it can hit. I myself love maps with good decoration. This map makes my eyes wanting to bleed. It's like a beginners 5th map every with some help. You can tell there was an idea, but its out the window now. But its a finalist, I guess congrats you did what I myself when I saw this map's pic in the thread to be impossible. And I thought forgotten city could easily seal a spot. But I wont rant about my own maps.
So alright, my rant about Sidians rant. Was meant to be a response but when I can rant, I rant! I hope next TLMC things are less weird and more than likely BS. Also macro is basically either large standard maps. or turtle heaven. New maps, heres the thing. You cant really do that much 'new' ideas without custom data. Za'Trevix City was going to have bridges that randomly activate or deactivate to create attack paths that change time to time. I noticed custom data was not allowed, so I went with the most standardized map I could make.
The overlap between each category is annoying and can ruin any map. I'd also enjoy if there was also a top 16 maps that just didn't make it to the finalist. So at least those who almost made it to the finalist can see what maps almost made it. Of course these 16 maps if this idea was considered, would not get a tournament dedicated to them as they failed to reach the finalist.
(Also seeing how well all our submissions did in general would be nice, so we don't have that salt of judges basically hiding information that could help :l. But hey, its not what i do. And I'm in no position to say do this and do that.)
Oh hey I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to point out that Blueshift was basically Catalyst--it took slightly longer than I expected. I'm sure the judges noticed incidentally--except most pros would be more than happy to play on a map pool consisting of seven slightly tweaked copies of Coda or some other appropriately hyper-standard map so the similarity was seen as a plus.
I think I'll post my comments about the maps (though they won't be as salty as Sidian's) after I've seen them play out a bit more.
On February 15 2018 19:13 algue wrote: Are 4 players maps just out of the question these days? I always thought they were pretty fun to play on. I get that they can sometimes be problematic at the highest level but it's sad to see them go because of it.
i think they can make people lose even at lower levels... things as simple as scouting the wrong direction and dying to a rush.
Not only this, but they make for less interesting maps because the corners (or wherever the mains are) need to be designed as a main base. So at the bases where nobody spawns there will always be this high-ground dead-end with a tucked in natural, which is bad design in my opinion. It's better to have a 2-player map that is designed optimally for the spawn points.
This still isn't a problem in broodwar after almost 20 years somehow. You're not wrong however but maybe overstating it
Huge fan of Blueshift and 16-bit. After that it gets harder; Artana, Lost and Found as well as Travincal and Cybros Relay Station are all really good maps.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fuGPUdy.png)
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/207207985091444737/414316388493295616/16Bit.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/207207985091444737/414311969462550528/TLMC10_9edit.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/207207985091444737/414305805840416768/similar.jpg)
