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This just in... even with the "buffs to protoss".... PvT is only sitting at 53% winrate. Meanwhile... ZvP also sits at 54%
Funny isn't it, how protoss gets the whine hate, while another matchup is just as imblanced... It's almost as if PvT had been ludicrously imbalanced to favor terrans since May (not reaching even 48% until October) and the dramatic shift in balance (while not actually any less imblanced: see that 45% June winrate heh) is actually what people like Major are perceiving as unfair.
Oh, and I know this isn't exactly something that can easily be done without extensive changes to the terran race mechanics.... but I think MMM should be absolute garbage past midgame. People have the audacity to mention how unfair a T2 unit like stalkers scale (still scaling poorly btw even with +2), when bio at 25 minutes is still somehow a thing... Obviously if you wanted to balance the game against that insanity, you probably need to improve the synergy and reduce the switching cost between bio and mech (after all, while not the same game, one of Flash's greatest contributions to BW was showing how to safely and reliably make the mech transition in all matchups).
Final comment... I was in the heavily minority camp at the beginning of the beta test that the change to chronoboost wasn't going to be good for balance and was unnecessary, but people wanted "more micro ability, and the foolproofness of protoss econ boosts removed". Congratz there (off-hand comment about queuing larva injects).
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An important change I would like to see in the future is earlier and more prolonged testing phase where both pros and casual players can start trying out the changes. The testing windows were too short this past year (Closing on Oct. 15 seems dramatically too quick now.)
I like the design philosophy of having regular big changes to shake up the meta, but I think a corresponding necessity is to have balance tweaks consistently running on the "testing" matchmaker so that they can more quickly make reasonable tweaks. The new Raven was introduced on August 31, and here we are on Dec. 15 starting to barely tweak its abilities. The unit is comparable in utility to a Sentry right now, and it costs 100 minerals 200 gas and requires a Starport with a Tech Lab. Its general design seems to approximate Vipers in some ways, but the utility of Ravens in comparison with Vipers is laughable.
Right now it seems like the balance team is like a little raft sailing on public opinion, and we Terrans are sunk to the bottom of the sea.
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On December 16 2017 01:51 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
An important change I would like to see in the future is earlier and more prolonged testing phase where both pros and casual players can start trying out the changes. The testing windows were too short this past year (Closing on Oct. 15 seems dramatically too quick now.)
I like the design philosophy of having regular big changes to shake up the meta, but I think a corresponding necessity is to have balance tweaks consistently running on the "testing" matchmaker so that they can more quickly make reasonable tweaks. The new Raven was introduced on August 31, and here we are on Dec. 15 starting to barely tweak its abilities. The unit is comparable in utility to a Sentry right now, and it costs 100 minerals 200 gas and requires a Starport with a Tech Lab. Its general design seems to approximate Vipers in some ways, but the utility of Ravens in comparison with Vipers is laughable.
Right now it seems like the balance team is like a little raft sailing on public opinion, and we Terrans are sunk to the bottom of the sea.
The issue with the Raven was that they kept changing the ideas of the spells, instead of sticking with one set and making the numbers work properly (actually a general issue. The testing period was pretty nice and long if you make a set of changes and then tweak the numbers, but it was far too short when half of the time was spent on radical changes back and forth they didn't end up bringing live).
Anyways, sentries cost 100 gas as well... and instantly die to everything that can reach them, and aren't detectors... Like I think in general, terran's have been relying on not using ravens (or using them only for harass) for so long that they underestimate how much a single scan (to protect against something that a raven might see) costs in effective income. With the rise of lurkers and mass infestor play, denying protoss map vision from observers, or heck even the more and more common banshee play in TvT, Ravens would be functionally useful with no abilities whatsoever.
But yes, the energy costs and numbers games of Ravens can use some tweaking, and it's good that they are doing that.
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With that set of data.... in both cases... which matchup is more balanced?
PvT 246–196 (55.66%)
PvZ 349–442 (44.12%)
PvT 184–136 (57.50%)
PvZ 210–294 (41.67%)
But anyways, I used the balance report tabulation from Aliqulac
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
which had 53.7 and 46.3. If you wan't to complain about the numbers there. Fine enough. I used consistent sources with the most recent data that consistent source showed. I can use the other set instead.
Point is.... you don't see the same number people on the forums bitching about how imba Zerg is even though balance is EVEN worse there. (In fact, you still see Scarlett talk about how the matchup wasn't zerg favored before, and still isn't.)
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On December 15 2017 13:46 Scarlett` wrote:
I guess it depends if blizzard want to balance for pro level or for average players-
At pro level stalker is clearly too good in pvt but i guess all the feedback from non pros say they like it that way
That's the important point here. With pro level micro it's probably imba but with average (let's say my) level of micro it's probably not (that much).
That said balancing for the average player is kinda pointless but pro player feedback is usually also very biased. Well if even Protoss agrees in this case...
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On December 16 2017 02:12 curufinwe_wins wrote:With that set of data.... in both cases... which matchup is more balanced? PvT 246–196 (55.66%) PvZ 349–442 (44.12%) PvT 184–136 (57.50%) PvZ 210–294 (41.67%) But anyways, I used the balance report tabulation from Aliqulac http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/which had 53.7 and 46.3. If you wan't to complain about the numbers there. Fine enough. I used consistent sources with the most recent data that consistent source showed. I can use the other set instead. Point is.... you don't see the same number people on the forums bitching about how imba Zerg is even though balance is EVEN worse there. (In fact, you still see Scarlett talk about how the matchup wasn't zerg favored before, and still isn't.)
1. Your "consistent" source includes almost half a month's worth of games that weren't played on the patch. If you're going to cite Aligulac at least select the right data.
2. Obviously PvZ is a problem, plenty of people are complaining about it, and it's on the list of things that Blizzard is looking at.
3. PvZ is bad, but Protoss is heavily favored in TvP which mitigates the situation somewhat, and it exacerbates the PvZ problem in tournaments since weaker Protosses can knock out stronger Terrans to advance, then lose when they face a Zerg. Meanwhile TvZ looks even to slightly unfavored for T, which is why they're getting more attention at this point, and this is reflected in their representation as well as winrates (look at the number of games where each race is present).
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On December 16 2017 03:19 Athenau wrote:
snip.
Really? Because I'm not seeing those posts on Reddit or here complaining about the pvz balance. Must be selectively avoiding it.
Anyways I was using the balance report consistently. There is no dec one yet. I was explicitly comparing all those balance reports to previous ones. If you want me to pick two week windows instead, go ahead and look at the June 22 report. Which indicates again my issue with all this discussion.
"weaker zergs" can knockout stronger protoss to advance then lose to terrans. It's the exact same issue.
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Resorting to stats is stupid since the patch is so "young". Just watch pro streams, listen to what pros have to say about the changes.
Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
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On December 15 2017 06:20 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Blizzard, revert the marauder and widow mine to HOTS values and let the game develops for itself. GG.
I agree with that
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On December 16 2017 03:44 curufinwe_wins wrote:Really? Because I'm not seeing those posts on Reddit or here complaining about the pvz balance. Must be selectively avoiding it.
protoss doesn't whine as hard as terran does, they are used to their winrates being shit.
there also aren't many protoss players anyways.
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i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
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On December 16 2017 06:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
Happy to hear that, but I think the Korean Terrans in GSL would say otherwise.
PvT is hilariously broken atm, neither bio nor mech are viable at the pro level. I watched Inno play herO and lose six times in a row yesterday, nothing worked. Bio, mech, cheese, whatever. The chrono nerf will probably help things, but I very much doubt it will be enough. I'm fine with keeping stalkers as-is, but Terran needs a buff–bio with mines/libs can't even beat gateway let alone deathballs.
To be fair, PvZ is also pretty broken too. So I'm glad the balance team is keeping an eye on that. Since nerfing Protoss earlygame will probably make things even worse, and mech is standard in TvZ, buffing bio looks to be the right track imo. The balance team even said they are watching bio specifically.
I do wish the balance team would move a bit faster though, will probably be late January or so at this rate before balance is restored. In other words, pretty much the same length and severity as the horrendous PvT balance after 3.8. Really does seem like the balance team has learned nothing from last year.
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hit&run kinda guerilla style unit became 'blink into tanks and marauders and be fine' unit lol
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On December 16 2017 04:14 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 03:44 curufinwe_wins wrote:On December 16 2017 03:19 Athenau wrote:
snip. Really? Because I'm not seeing those posts on Reddit or here complaining about the pvz balance. Must be selectively avoiding it. protoss doesn't whine as hard as terran does, they are used to their winrates being shit. there also aren't many protoss players anyways.
Protoss is no longer the least played race.
Also this very update contradicts the, "protoss don't whine only terran" rethoric.
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On December 16 2017 07:40 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 06:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
Happy to hear that, but I think the Korean Terrans in GSL would say otherwise. PvT is hilariously broken atm, neither bio nor mech are viable at the pro level. I watched Inno play herO and lose six times in a row yesterday, nothing worked. Bio, mech, cheese, whatever. The chrono nerf will probably help things, but I very much doubt it will be enough. I'm fine with keeping stalkers as-is, but Terran needs a buff–bio with mines/libs can't even beat gateway let alone deathballs. To be fair, PvZ is also pretty broken too. So I'm glad the balance team is keeping an eye on that. Since nerfing Protoss earlygame will probably make things even worse, and mech is standard in TvZ, buffing bio looks to be the right track imo. The balance team even said they are watching bio specifically. I do wish the balance team would move a bit faster though, will probably be late January or so at this rate before balance is restored. In other words, pretty much the same length and severity as the horrendous PvT balance after 3.8. Really does seem like the balance team has learned nothing from last year.
the game must be balanced at the GSL level.
if its imbalanced at my level i don't care.
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I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
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On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote:I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area. What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
i think the problem is that this is a gimmicky and unreliable tactic if zerg is ready for it they just focus the medivacs down and bam mines are gone. If it were reliable than thats fine let the meta develop, this strat is not very reliable though and mostly just displays the shear desperation terran have in these late game situations without a decent raven and with the current 120 dmg parasitic bomb shredding vikings. It used to be that you could focus the vikings and only some pbs would land so it mitigated the dmg, but now all they need is one or two decent pbs and huge clumps of your air get shredded.
this would be less of a problem if blizzard would make bio decent at the pro level vs zerg again, but right now Terran are in the double jeopardy of needing to kill them before they get there while at the same time not having a strong enough midgame to reliably do so. Blizzard needs to pick one either zerg is supposed to crush terran late game fair enough but if thats the case it needs to be way harder for them to reach that late game like it is in pvz with skytoss, or terran needs to be on an even playing ground in the late game. Zerg should not both be strong in the mid game and untouchable in the late game.
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On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote:I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area. What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
Yeah, so during HOTS where the only thing terran did every and each TvP was an SCV pull against stalker-colossi because lategame was unplayable, the "meta developed on its own". How great of an era was that !
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Lmao, what do terran players consider "reliable"? Amoving thors and marauders to beat hive tech?
E: hilariously biased, ignorant and obtuse post right above me 
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EPT
