EPTBut where's the problem for making vikings an answer to air again? Skyterran isn't a thing anymore with the raven nerf and PB isn't really used in ZvP anyways so why not just nerf/remove it.
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
But where's the problem for making vikings an answer to air again? Skyterran isn't a thing anymore with the raven nerf and PB isn't really used in ZvP anyways so why not just nerf/remove it. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 16 2017 17:11 Charoisaur wrote: Reliable is probably the wrong word as from what I've seen it's working quite well but... I dunno - it just feels wrong to me. I don't have any arguments for that, that's just my subjective feeling. But where's the problem for making vikings an answer to air again? Skyterran isn't a thing anymore with the raven nerf and PB isn't really used in ZvP anyways so why not just nerf/remove it. It definitely should be nerfed. While they removed the stacking and added a small delay, increasing the damage to 120 was a huge buff (vikings only have 125 hp). | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them. Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap. Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors. So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors. | ||
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CyanApple
48 Posts
On December 15 2017 23:01 MockHamill wrote: I think the problem with the Raven abilities are the following: 1. The armour-debuff does not synergize well with mech. 3 more damage from tanks is almost nothing, Thors fight against Carrier/Tempest in single target mode and 3 more damage does very little to change the outcome of the fight. Solution: Make the target units take 20% more damage from attacks instead. I think the bold part is quite important. I always thought the debuff-ability would work wonders for terran, since it's effectively a temporary upgrade advantage, that's usually considered huge. But this is only the case for bio. So it would be interesting to see whether this raven ability synergizes well with bio. Has anyone seen a game where that's tried? An alternative solution to make this work with mech would be to not debuff the enemy, but to buff your own units. Increasing the tank's armor by 3(might even have to be less) would have more of an impact, since the enemies usually have lower damage numbers. (As a follow up to that, the damage of the anti.armor missile could be added to the interference matrix. This might even lead to nice interactions, since you would want to micro the targetable units of the interference matrix separately, making them more vulnerable to flanks) | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On December 16 2017 16:07 Ej_ wrote: Lmao, what do terran players consider "reliable"? Amoving thors and marauders to beat hive tech? E: hilariously biased, ignorant and obtuse post right above me  So trying to kill broodlords with widow mine drops can be considered "reliable"? And thors shouldn't beat hive tech because... ? Right that's absolutely not "biaised, ignorant and obtuse". | ||
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Xamo
Spain880 Posts
On December 16 2017 08:15 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: hit&run kinda guerilla style unit became 'blink into tanks and marauders and be fine' unit lol This is simply not true. Stalkers have the same HP and dps as before. You are able to snipe one tank, marauder, medevac or liberator, but when T has several then they are as shitty as before. This sniping "ability" was exactly what Blizzard was looking for, as a design goal. If bio is struggling vs both P and Z, then the proper response is to buff it. I suggest to reduce the stim upgrade time, it takes forever right now. This way T can be earlier aggressive if wanted, defend easier to timing attacks or delay the start of the upgrade and develop the economy earlier. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks. Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them. Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap. Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors. So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors. You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks. Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them. Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap. Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors. So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors. Tell us than o wise one what high tech units Terran has make to deal with viper broodlord that they can make after building 5+ factories or 8+ rax on an inferior or even economy? I'm sure Terran pros trying to drop widowmines on broodlords would love for you to share your wisdom with them. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On December 16 2017 16:07 Ej_ wrote: Lmao, what do terran players consider "reliable"? Amoving thors and marauders to beat hive tech? E: hilariously biased, ignorant and obtuse post right above me This might be news to you, but you can also breath from your nose. Thank me later. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On December 16 2017 15:27 JackONeill wrote: Yeah, so during HOTS where the only thing terran did every and each TvP was an SCV pull against stalker-colossi because lategame was unplayable, the "meta developed on its own". How great of an era was that ! So do you believe that metas should not be able to develop on their own then? Because you didn't like some of them? Dropping mines on broodlords seems very effective if the zerg isn't prepared. I don't see anything wrong with the tactic On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them. Is this even true? Protoss balls can wipe tanks on the ground with zealot+immortal. TY's attempts are a good example | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 17 2017 01:53 Fango wrote: So do you believe that metas should not be able to develop on their own then? Because you didn't like some of them? Dropping mines on broodlords seems very effective if the zerg isn't prepared. I don't see anything wrong with the tactic Is this even true? Protoss balls can wipe tanks on the ground with zealot+immortal. TY's attempts are a good example Hydras with vypers also work fairly well if the tanks have not had time to spread and Terran isn't fielding 15+vikings When tank counts are low ravens are also realy strong vs tanks so much so that I thinks it's starting to affect bio viability in tvt. One or two ravens can neutralize 3-4 tanks which can really tip midgame engagements and makes it much easier to take a third with mech vs bio. Sadly it feels like the only matchup ravens are good in is the mirror. I think if you buffed the range on interference matrix they would actually be quite good in tvp since the problem right now is they are unable to survive the stalker shots and feedbacks to land there spells on immortals and collosi. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 16 2017 23:33 Charoisaur wrote: You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome. The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this. tldr Buff Vikings Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 17 2017 02:28 Beelzebub1 wrote: The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this. tldr Buff Vikings Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone. With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 17 2017 02:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else. Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue. Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down. Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:15 Beelzebub1 wrote: Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue. Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down. Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood. It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On December 17 2017 02:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else. Hmm it's not like vikings are too strong vs protoss at all so a viking buff would help there too. TvT is a mirror so it will balance out regardless. I actually like the idea of a viking buff, maybe +20 HP or so. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote: It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it. See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one. Am I right in that statement? Because if I am, is it not a nerf against Mutalisks/Vikings/stacking units and was a huge buff against high HP targets like Carriers/Voids? Apologies if I'm way off base on that one. Oh don't shake your head at a 15 HP buff, that leaves them with 20 extra HP which would enable them to get off at least another volley or 2 before they are dead, assuming they don't have a Raven flock dropping heal drones, small buffs can make a big difference. Need I remind anyone of +1 range on Roaches? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:59 Beelzebub1 wrote: See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one. It still affects the vikings around the inflicted one, it just means that if 2 parasitic bombs overlap the damage won't be doubled anymore. So 1 post-patch PB on a clump of viking is as effective as 2 PBs pre-patch. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:59 Beelzebub1 wrote: See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one. Am I right in that statement? Because if I am, is it not a nerf against Mutalisks/Vikings/stacking units and was a huge buff against high HP targets like Carriers/Voids? Apologies if I'm way off base on that one. Oh don't shake your head at a 15 HP buff, that leaves them with 20 extra HP which would enable them to get off at least another volley or 2 before they are dead, assuming they don't have a Raven flock dropping heal drones, small buffs can make a big difference. Need I remind anyone of +1 range on Roaches? No it just works like storm now if 2 overlap they don't both do dmg in the overlapping area. But overall the current pb is better than the old one since you need less vipers to achieve the same result, its harder to deny the pb by sniping the vipers with target fire since zerg needs to land less pbs and the dmg is higher but applied over the same periods of time meaning even if you split reactively you still take massive dmg the only thing that mitigates it is a huge pre battle split but than it's difficult to take advantage of the vikings range advantage over curropters since kiting=clumping. If Vikings don't kite than they get completely outclassed by corrupter so you lose the air war anyway. Right now the best anti air option Terran has is thors, the problem with thors is that they are slow, clunky, and very vulnerable to abducts and blinding clouds. They are great a mutas but lackluster vs late game zerg air. Hence why you see pros using gimmicky tactics like mine drops on top of the brood lords. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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