Thanks for the discussions regarding the proposed changes. We hear your feedback and we want to make a few adjustments to the list of changes for the next balance update occurring on the week of December 18th.
Protoss After reviewing the recent feedback, we are reducing the number of changes for Protoss. We still think the current Chrono Boost does help Protoss players reach a unit or upgrade too quickly, so we are going to reduce the strength of Chrono Boost but increase the duration of the ability. At the same time, the Oracle’s build time will be reduced as well since the effects of Chrono Boost were reduced.
Next, the Stalker strength will remain the same for now. We’ve heard feedback that nerfing it, in addition to Chrono Boost, may be too many changes for Protoss currently. We will continue to evaluate high level games going forward. For the Disruptor we are going to keep the cooldown the same as currently, but will be introducing a delay before each Purification Nova fires. This should give players more time to try evading or counter attacking the Disruptor when fighting at close range, as the damage will not be quite so sudden.
Nexus Chrono Boost strength reduced from 100% to 50% and duration per cast increased from 10 seconds to 20 seconds.
Oracle Build time reduced from 43 to 37 seconds.
Disruptor Purification Nova has a 1 second charge up time before launch.
Terran We would still like to try increasing the Raven’s strength to make the unit more viable in matchups. Also, the Widow Mine’s build time will be reduced a bit to open up more opportunities for the unit.
Raven Anti-Armor Missile lock time reduced from 2.14 to 1.43. Anti-Armor Missile energy cost reduced from 125 to 100. Interference Matrix range increased from 8 to 9. Interference Matrix missile speed increased by 50%.
Widow Mine Build time reduced from 28.6 to 21.4 seconds.
Multiplayer Maps Blackpink LE – Added a jumpable platform to provide Terran players with an additional entry or exit for scouting. Catalyst LE – Decals and doodads were added to help highlight the Reaper jump location near the main base.
Future Changes The game is constantly changing as high level players develop new strategies. Some areas we are keeping in mind are Stalker/Disruptor strength vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, diversity of Protoss openings, Zerg overall strength, and Overlord transport strength vs Protoss.
Again, thanks to everyone for all the continued feedback and please let us know your thoughts. Lastly, since the end of the year is approaching, we want to wish everyone Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Years!
Very glad they listened to the community on stalkers. Still think Raven abilities are just kind of bad and more could be done for the unit. Also think there's room for a marauder buff. But let's wait and see how chronoboost affects the state of the game, and then we'll go from there.
I think a big part of the reason for current Terran struggles revolves around some less tangible things than simply Stalkers vs. Marines.
1. Early offense & defense: - Terran cannot gain early map control in TvP or TvZ. It's not that they don't want to pay for the investment. There's nothing to invest in. Any unit that once gave map control (early BF hellions/reapers/bunker rushing) was nerfed to the point that it no longer can offer map control without an investment so high that losing it means losing the game. - Bunker defense has been largely negated by Ravager/mass numbers of banelings/stalkers, etc. - The Cyclone was originally designed to be a defensive powerhouse, but then when the redesign came around they were made into very expensive tanky/all around sorts of units. The biggest drawback to the current Cyclone is its cost vs. its utility, with a close second being its build time. This unit is a poor investment in most circumstances.
Point 1: Terran needs better options for map control and/or better early offensive capabilities. There are 2 ideas I have for this. A. Replace the bunker with a very slow mobile attack transport from the campaign. It could move, units could be loaded into it, it could be repairable and even gain the upgrade from the engineering bay for more units or better armor, making use out of a few different things that have very little utility right now. This would also allow for some micro capability against Ravagers. B. Allow multiple SCV's to build a building simultaneously(up to 3 or something), so that Terran could leverage the early game for offensive and not just macro purposes.
2. Terran lacks Harassment you can believe in: There is without a doubt no unit that is comparable in the Terran arsenal to the risk vs. reward the Protoss can get out of the Oracle and Zerg can get out of Zerglings. The marine was once a unit that could hold its own in packs against a lot of different things. That is not the case anymore. Consider the harass units that have been nerfed for Terran in the past: - Widow mine nerf - Liberator nerf/queen buff - Banshee/queen buff - Raven redesign - MMM drops have been dramatically effected by the economy changes in LOTV. The acceleration to the midgame means much more creep/overlords/observers/pheonixes, etc., to take map control. Drops came in at a time in the past where Terran could begin the drop phase and leverage it for a win. More common at this point is losing a medivac or two for nothing and being dramatically behind because of it. For instance, opening 2-1-1 in HOTS gave you 16 marines and 2 medivacs vs. a 2 base zerg with around 40-45 drones that could have 2 base muta coming out soon. Opening 2-1-1 in LOTV gives you 16 marines vs. a Zerg with 55-60 drones and 5-6 queens and about 30 zerglings to hold you off with.
Point 2: Terran needs reliable harassment. Some of these units were problematic (Liberator), but nerfing each one down to its current state seems to have left Terran without reliable harassment. Not only does this mean you need more apm to accomplish damage and convert it into a reasonable push, it means most games will have little to no action for the first 6 or 8 minutes. People have complained about turtling with mech, but most of the turtling I see going on in SC2 right now is Zergs building 70 drones and then massing hydras. Here are some ideas for this: A. Retool the Cyclone a bit, increasing its speed to move with Hellions so that hellions are not absolutely shut down by armored units. This would require a lowering of the Cyclone's hit points and cost, as well as its build time. B. Give Reapers a speed upgrade (75/75 cost or so) so that they equal Zerglings with speed. The micro battles would still be phenomenal, but battles could be won by micro rather than simply by bombs. C. Give Reapers an upgrade to be able to attack air (75/75 cost or so)so that Hellion/Reaper openings are feasible and the game simply doesn't end if Zerg builds some Mutas or Protoss builds an Oracle. D. Give the new Ghost, or an upgraded Reaper the ability to plant a bomb that would destroy or dramatically damage an opponent's tech building so that the explosion followed by a Reaper attack could flip the game on its side or something.
On the Current Changes: I write all this because I don't think the issue with Terran is going to be solved by the current changes on Ravens or Widow mines. And I don't think the answer lies in nerfing Stalkers. A. The Raven - The intangible issue with the Raven is that while you're making it you're not making Medivacs or Vikings or Liberators or Banshees, and nothing they are proposing is anywhere near the utility of those units. Moving the current Raven to the Factory is an idea that would shake things up. B. Widow Mines - I understand the design dilemma behind Widow Mines, but anyone who has ever said "they're too much of a set it and forget it type unit" is forgetting that it's a land mine. The only future I see for the Widow Mine is even farther in the direction they're currently going. In its current design it is a single shot unit. It will shoot, then it will die. Reduce its supply cost, damage, and resource cost and make it a pure map control unit that needs to operate in groups. It no longer functions as any sort of effective harassment unit.
If anything TvP is going to continue to be extremely volatile while Zerg already has Early, Mid, and Late Game options for Offense, Defense, and Harassment, in addition to units that have been reworked to be reliable and flexible for the various stages of the game.
Changes look like they will be good. Now if only blizzard would fix the damn issue where players cannot visibly see units/buildings being highlighted after being selected with the mouse that'd be great.
Hope they make changes to overlord drop their are some really stupid all ins zerg can do atm with droplords that are really hard to stop and pretty simple to execute. Other then that changes seem pretty good I would also recommend maybe decreasing the energy cost of halluncation to allow protoss to have a little bit better scouting in the early game in pvp and pvz.
who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
On December 15 2017 06:24 zelevin wrote: >the widow mine has a non-integer build time absolutely disgusting
Basically everything has non-integer build time since the engine still uses Blizzard time. In Blizzard time it translates to 'Build time reduced from 40 to 30 seconds'.
On December 15 2017 06:23 Ransomstarcraft wrote: I think a big part of the reason for current Terran struggles revolves around some less tangible things than simply Stalkers vs. Marines.
1. Early offense & defense: - Terran cannot gain early map control in TvP or TvZ. It's not that they don't want to pay for the investment. There's nothing to invest in. Any unit that once gave map control (early BF hellions/reapers/bunker rushing) was nerfed to the point that it no longer can offer map control without an investment so high that losing it means losing the game. - Bunker defense has been largely negated by Ravager/mass numbers of banelings/stalkers, etc. - The Cyclone was originally designed to be a defensive powerhouse, but then when the redesign came around they were made into very expensive tanky/all around sorts of units. The biggest drawback to the current Cyclone is its cost vs. its utility, with a close second being its build time. This unit is a poor investment in most circumstances.
Point 1: Terran needs better options for map control and/or better early offensive capabilities. There are 2 ideas I have for this. A. Replace the bunker with a very slow mobile attack transport from the campaign. It could move, units could be loaded into it, it could be repairable and even gain the upgrade from the engineering bay for more units or better armor, making use out of a few different things that have very little utility right now. This would also allow for some micro capability against Ravagers. B. Allow multiple SCV's to build a building simultaneously(up to 3 or something), so that Terran could leverage the early game for offensive and not just macro purposes.
2. Terran lacks Harassment you can believe in: There is without a doubt no unit that is comparable in the Terran arsenal to the risk vs. reward the Protoss can get out of the Oracle and Zerg can get out of Zerglings. The marine was once a unit that could hold its own in packs against a lot of different things. That is not the case anymore. Consider the harass units that have been nerfed for Terran in the past: - Widow mine nerf - Liberator nerf/queen buff - Banshee/queen buff - Raven redesign - MMM drops have been dramatically effected by the economy changes in LOTV. The acceleration to the midgame means much more creep/overlords/observers/pheonixes, etc., to take map control. Drops came in at a time in the past where Terran could begin the drop phase and leverage it for a win. More common at this point is losing a medivac or two for nothing and being dramatically behind because of it. For instance, opening 2-1-1 in HOTS gave you 16 marines and 2 medivacs vs. a 2 base zerg with around 40-45 drones that could have 2 base muta coming out soon. Opening 2-1-1 in LOTV gives you 16 marines vs. a Zerg with 55-60 drones and 5-6 queens and about 30 zerglings to hold you off with.
Point 2: Terran needs reliable harassment. Some of these units were problematic (Liberator), but nerfing each one down to its current state seems to have left Terran without reliable harassment. Not only does this mean you need more apm to accomplish damage and convert it into a reasonable push, it means most games will have little to no action for the first 6 or 8 minutes. People have complained about turtling with mech, but most of the turtling I see going on in SC2 right now is Zergs building 70 drones and then massing hydras. Here are some ideas for this: A. Retool the Cyclone a bit, increasing its speed to move with Hellions so that hellions are not absolutely shut down by armored units. This would require a lowering of the Cyclone's hit points and cost, as well as its build time. B. Give Reapers a speed upgrade (75/75 cost or so) so that they equal Zerglings with speed. The micro battles would still be phenomenal, but battles could be won by micro rather than simply by bombs. C. Give Reapers an upgrade to be able to attack air (75/75 cost or so)so that Hellion/Reaper openings are feasible and the game simply doesn't end if Zerg builds some Mutas or Protoss builds an Oracle. D. Give the new Ghost, or an upgraded Reaper the ability to plant a bomb that would destroy or dramatically damage an opponent's tech building so that the explosion followed by a Reaper attack could flip the game on its side or something.
I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I do agree that they need to at least revert the +shields nerf on the WM, and maybe revert the other nerfs. I think your proposed ideas are a bit ridiculous and would make Reapers way too good and very massable (which most people have been fighting against for the entirety of LotV)
On December 15 2017 06:50 BigRedDog wrote: What's wrong with OL drops vs protoss?
They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted.
I like that stalkers are staying strong but I doubt the chrono nerf will be enough to restore the balance. I expected them to nerf something else (collossus?) if they revert the stalker nerf. Wm and marauder reverts would be good too.
On December 15 2017 06:13 ArtyK wrote: Multiplayer Maps Blackpink LE – Added a jumpable platform to provide Terran players with an additional entry or exit for scouting. Catalyst LE – Decals and doodads were added to help highlight the Reaper jump location near the main base.
this is a very subtle but great change. thanks Mr. Blizzard.
ITT Terran whine after Protoss manages to barely avoid getting dad-dicked by Blizzard again. In all seriousness, I think that the Chrono change will make early Protoss pressure a little less vicious allowing Terran to stabilize in the mid-game. Has anyone else noticed an increase in Terran one-base all-ins? I can see why with so many Protoss cheeses out there; provides the T with defensive units if needed or a strong push otherwise.
So IEM and GSL qualifiers will be played on this """balance""". I dont know what to say, there are 3 tournaments/year in Korea, and one will be unplayable.
I think some players are going to retire, GSL is important, and it will be played on an experimental patch.
I'm not whining or what so no warning please, but it's not really serious from blizzard.
With Warchest money, they could have done a sort of an online pre season between November and December , so it would have been easier to know what to change.
On December 15 2017 07:23 DieuCure wrote:With Warchest money, they could have done a sort of an online pre season between November and December , so it would have been easier to know what to change.
They could have started it all the way back in September after WCS Montreal or October after GSL Super Tournament 2. Sure, you'd have lost out on WCS Global Finals players, but you can still see some of the issues without the top of the top players. (see Homestory Cup for an example)
On December 15 2017 07:23 DieuCure wrote: So IEM and GSL qualifiers will be played on this """balance""". I dont know what to say, there are 3 tournaments/year in Korea, and one will be unplayable.
let's "pay attention to outcomes" and see just how "unplayable" it is.
Well, I thought the balance team had learned from its mistakes in 3.8 and was moving decisively to avoid prolonged imbalance this year. I had some hope that the game was nearing a better equilibrium under a better team.
I expected a quick followup regarding PvZ after PvT was fixed. Instead the balance team is opting to prolong the imbalance in both matchups. Incremental changes make sense if the meta is already close to stable. This meta is still uncertain at best after the major changes of 4.0 and the window before big tournaments start rolling is nearly gone. Major design changes like removing the MSC are all well and good, but only if the balance problems that inevitably accompany such major changes are addressed swiftly and firmly. Imo this is the exact opposite direction the balance team should be moving.
Rolling back the scale of changes is a move I'd approve of if GSL was currently in full swing, but the offseason is the time for drastic moves, not timid ones. Disappointed that the balance team seems to be making the same mistakes it did last year.
Plz no, exactly zero sane, logical people think the oracle is a well designed unit, don't promote it's usage.
Well call me insane and illogical, but I don't mind the oracle with it's reduced damage. Previously it killed things way too fast, but now that it doesn't evaporate workers and marines I think it's a reasonable unit with good utility.
Yeah so stalker will still be 3 shotting marines and SCVs, and KR pro terran players will still be trying to blow up BLs with widow mine drops because terran late game anti air is so shitty.
But at least they're considering looking at bio's viability. Nothing about tempest still screwing mech play due to the lack of PDD, but hey, at least they're "looking into x" (tm).
Plz no, exactly zero sane, logical people think the oracle is a well designed unit, don't promote it's usage.
Well call me insane and illogical, but I don't mind the oracle with it's reduced damage. Previously it killed things way too fast, but now that it doesn't evaporate workers and marines I think it's a reasonable unit with good utility.
It still evaporates drones at the exact same speed it did before, but now you have to get your spore even faster. At least it isn't as massable as it used to be.
Plz no, exactly zero sane, logical people think the oracle is a well designed unit, don't promote it's usage.
Well call me insane and illogical, but I don't mind the oracle with it's reduced damage. Previously it killed things way too fast, but now that it doesn't evaporate workers and marines I think it's a reasonable unit with good utility.
It still evaporates drones at the exact same speed it did before, but now you have to get your spore even faster. At least it isn't as massable as it used to be.
Oracle was 37 seconds for the entirety of lotv until 4.0, they put it at 43 because of the chrono buff but now that's it's 50% boost i don't think reverting the oracle build time is a problem, especially with the damage reduction which does make it worse vs hydras
Plz no, exactly zero sane, logical people think the oracle is a well designed unit, don't promote it's usage.
Well call me insane and illogical, but I don't mind the oracle with it's reduced damage. Previously it killed things way too fast, but now that it doesn't evaporate workers and marines I think it's a reasonable unit with good utility.
It still evaporates drones at the exact same speed it did before, but now you have to get your spore even faster. At least it isn't as massable as it used to be.
You don't have to get the spore as fast due to the chrono nerf.
Plz no, exactly zero sane, logical people think the oracle is a well designed unit, don't promote it's usage.
Well call me insane and illogical, but I don't mind the oracle with it's reduced damage. Previously it killed things way too fast, but now that it doesn't evaporate workers and marines I think it's a reasonable unit with good utility.
It still evaporates drones at the exact same speed it did before, but now you have to get your spore even faster. At least it isn't as massable as it used to be.
Oh yeah true, I forgot they still 2 shots probes and drones. I thought they felt weaker when I last used them against P or Z, but I haven't been building them as often lately.
I fully agree that the previous proposal was overkill for protoss. The chrono change is major and will change a lot about how units will perform on the field. By adding a stalker nerf on top of that could possibly result in protoss being too weak again. If the stalker does need toning down it will be best to see after the chrono change and not before.
Chrono is 100% faster, so 1s is 2s, so if it lasts 10s, it's like you have waited 20s, a oracle needs 43s so with full chronoboost :
Oracle is currently built in 21,5s using 3 chronos. (With 2 chronos it's 23s).
If chrono is 50%, 1s is like 1,5s, so during 20s it's like you have waited 30s, as oracle needs 37s, with full chronoboost : Oracle will be built in 24.7s with 2 chronoboosts and 27s with 1 chrono.
I'm not sure that oracle coming 3.2s later will make a big difference.
I wonder how they plan to address the large imbalance in PvZ post-mothership core being removed. I think a great start would be overlord drops.
Another thing I have seen mentioned is reverting the hydra heath buff. It would help both PvZ AND TvZ. It would essentially be the same nerf as the adept got last year, which proved to even out the winrates well.
To add on, mass oracle has already been greatly nerfed, so reducing the health isn't a big deal.
the Disruptor change is dumb though, but at least they aren't making it not viable...
On December 15 2017 07:23 DieuCure wrote:With Warchest money, they could have done a sort of an online pre season between November and December , so it would have been easier to know what to change.
They could have started it all the way back in September after WCS Montreal or October after GSL Super Tournament 2. Sure, you'd have lost out on WCS Global Finals players, but you can still see some of the issues without the top of the top players. (see Homestory Cup for an example)
Yes, after GSLST2 ( maybe i t's too early but ye one week after ) is the best idea, so non top 8 players can.
October was an useless month where Blizzard could have accomplished many more things for this patch.
Being live just 1.5 month before GSL qualifiers without real test isnt wise imo.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
It doesn't get better. Too much suspense in the air. They keep players/community stress. I don't want "whining" or "wishing" about balance, but it doesn't get better. We must pay our attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them carefully. Each.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
Well, Terran bio is nearly extinct, and the only way to win TvP is tricks (burn a lot of probes early/2 base all-ins, etc.). Tricks only works for a time, and they don't even work that great atm.
The design change (removal of overcharge) was good, design-wise, but bio is dead and they talk about the... raven and a cosmetic change to mine build time. Seriously. Bringing back the old marauder is the first step of good will to show they are not retarded and don't hate bio players. But that will probably not prove enough. Bio openings are just too bad (compared to other races/mech), without killing probes or drones (winch you souldn't with the bad actual harass opportunities) you begin the game behind with worse units, upgrades, and eco.
I understand Protosses getting bored of changing their core units over and over (and re-learning to kite), but the actual stalkers upgrades seems like a real issue. 2/2 is way too strong on stalkers. Will see how it plays out with the new chrono...
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?.
And the matchup was 50/50 when they removed Khaydarin Amulet in WOL and gave Protoss no corresponding buffs. This is how Blizzard balances.
i took my time to get you some real stats no one takes aligulac seriously =there is matches like ryung vs nice. those are tounrmanets that matter and im tired of people beliving in some fake stats on aligulac. all these are 3 season of gsl and 2 season of ssl so can you please tell me how was terran overpowered when it was only leading on GSL season 2? lol. GSL season 1 pvt 30 24 55.6% season 2 21 23 47.7% season 3 49 25 24 51.0% SSL season 28 18 10 64.3% ssl season 2 28 18 10 64.3%
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
So which Top 10 Korean Protoss agree with you ?
Thanks
hero stats dear classic hurricane neeb do i need to mention all ? they all say p > t
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
So which Top 10 Korean Protoss agree with you ?
Thanks
hero stats dear classic hurricane neeb do i need to mention all ? they all say p > t
Interesting.
P > T is a pretty vague. What specific changes do top 10 korean protoss agree with you ?
I guess it depends if blizzard want to balance for pro level or for average players- At pro level stalker is clearly too good in pvt but i guess all the feedback from non pros say they like it that way
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
So which Top 10 Korean Protoss agree with you ?
Thanks
hero stats dear classic hurricane neeb do i need to mention all ? they all say p > t
Interesting.
P > T is a pretty vague. What specific changes do top 10 korean protoss agree with you ?
probably last comment i will make in this thread.
Stalker is just simply put too strong, they buffed alot of protoss core unit (collosus and stalker) and kept terran army exactly the same but a nerf to ghost and mine.
they removed mothership core. and while its a big change its not that big. if you pay close attention to progames before patch vs Terran they would make mothership core if they knew A) all in was coming B) after taking a 3rd base because there was very little terran could do cause oracle opening was so strong. so in this patch for the lack of mothership core. which was already a pretty lated build unit vs Terran. they gave it a stornger stalker, a pretty good defence in the battery shield a stronger collosus. and completly imbalanced recall that needs at very least be more mana 50 mana is a joke for what it does. and a Stronger chrno boost. all this buffs for the removal of 1 unit. does it really merit it? of course not
now lets see what they changed for terran
Raven - Healing drone useless vs p, Misile useless vs P , Matrix can be good vs P but not really worth making it to disable an unit for some seconds. its expensive and delays alot of your tech atleast in old patch you could use turrets to help your push when they played robo or pdd to stop stalkers shots
Mine - Nerfed
Ghost - Nerfed. starting with cloak all it does it make some cheeses more strong that all are stopped by making a shield battery in your mineral line anyway. when you make ghost in tvp you need the energy to do the timing rush. ghost are not like templar u dont make ghost to just sit there and let em grow mana like templars. because they are not good defensive units. so making em start with less mana and adding the upgrade again its a bad change and not a very well tought one
New mech upgrades - they ok but this dosent adress any balance at all just a niche
so as you can clearly see they mostly nerf terran and buff protoss for the compesation of the removal of 1 unit. and i dont blame them i thought the removal of msc would be bigger. but if you really think about it. protoss was already making it very late because its not really needed to defend anything terran trowed at them during last patch. and same holds in this one. but instead they buffed like 5 things that are core for protoss.
Curious so what do the pros think of current PvZ balance? If they agree it is heavily zerg favored, then taking a holistic view wouldn't it make sense to buff T? Multiple nerfs to PvZ would only further the PvZ imbalance, possibly worse than PvT is now.
I'm not going to argue pros opinions on balance, all I can say is that the Stalker is a lot more fun to use and feels like it actually has a defined role now, which is really good in terms of game design. Previously it felt like an expensive unit that hit like a wet noodle and the only time you wanted to build it late game is when you needed emergency AA.
On December 15 2017 14:08 Skyro wrote: Curious so what do the pros think of current PvZ balance? If they agree it is heavily zerg favored, then taking a holistic view wouldn't it make sense to buff T? Multiple nerfs to PvZ would only further the PvZ imbalance, possibly worse than PvT is now.
I'm not going to argue pros opinions on balance, all I can say is that the Stalker is a lot more fun to use and feels like it actually has a defined role now, which is really good in terms of game design. Previously it felt like an expensive unit that hit like a wet noodle and the only time you wanted to build it late game is when you needed emergency AA.
protoss got buffed in 4.0 why would it be heavily zerg favoured when it wasnt before? faster overlords dont make up for collossus and stalker buffs
I love it. MSC removal isn't that big of a deal but a minor widow mine nerf and suddenly the sky is falling.
Pros are great at the game but are almost universally biased. Scarlett spent most of last year telling us PvZ was toss favored....and we all know how that turned out.
Our best reference for balance so far is korean qualifiers for wesg. Can someone remind me of those results?
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
The fact that it's your job is exactly why you should check yourself for bias.
They are listening to the community, the previous thread had more people say they were against the Stalker being changed than for, I was actually one of the few who said that I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't see your post in that thread stating that you thought it was a good change/important to go through, did you contact the balance team another way to make sure your opinion was heard?
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, I'm not having a go at you for having an opinion, I am having a go at you for your way of expressing it. It's unconvincing and unprofessional. The balance team is making an effort to listen to the community, so if you disagree with their direction, make your case in an educated way.
Edit: I just had a look at your twitter and I see you did email the balance team, that's good, assuming you used more tact than your first post here.
On December 15 2017 06:50 BigRedDog wrote: What's wrong with OL drops vs protoss?
They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted.
There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works.
I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless.
Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
On December 15 2017 06:50 BigRedDog wrote: What's wrong with OL drops vs protoss?
They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted.
There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works.
I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless.
Fact is that protosses at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by ling drops, whereas mass adepts is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double archon drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Protoss.
I am satisfied with this new proposed round of changes. I still think they're wrong-headed about the Widow Mine, and they're not addressing the Oracle from a more fundamental standpoint. Both of theses units need to not clear out mineral lines so quickly on the initial impact. It doesn't matter nearly as much regarding their ability to come back and do more damage over time.
I honestly don't mind the faster build time, but I'd like to see the Widow Mine's splash reduced to a flat 35 (so that it no longer 1-shots workers by default) and have a larger +shields component enter as a mid-to-late game upgrade. In exchange, bring back cloaked burrow after firing, and instead of quicker burrow time with Drilling Claws (this has always felt problematic to me), give it an upgrade to boost its manual target range by 1. The role of this unit is misunderstood. It is not exactly a "mine", strictly speaking. It's a small, mobile artillery unit. Essentially, it's a mortar, and it should be analyzed and balanced with that philosophy in mind.
The Oracle needs to not wipe out workers as fast as it does in the early game, but its ability to clear out a mineral line late game is not really a problem. I think they were onto something when they changed Pulsar Beam to attack damage, rather than spell damage. Drop the attack down to 12 +6 light, and let it benefit from 2 +1 light air attack upgrades, and I think we manage to avoid the most miserable parts of the Oracle while still preserving its late game flexibility. That having been said, with a weaker attack out of the gate, it is possible that it might need a range increase to compensate and to afford it options against turret placement. I also think they might have nerfed Stasis Ward a little bit too hard, but I think it's too early to pass firm judgment on that.
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here.
That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that.....
On December 15 2017 06:50 BigRedDog wrote: What's wrong with OL drops vs protoss?
They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted.
There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works.
I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless.
Fact is that protosses at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by ling drops, whereas mass adepts is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double archon drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Protoss.
Fact is that Zergs at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by archon drops, or mass adepts whereas zergling/baneling/queen drops is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double Zergling drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Zerg.
On December 15 2017 06:50 BigRedDog wrote: What's wrong with OL drops vs protoss?
They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted.
There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works.
I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless.
Fact is that protosses at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by ling drops, whereas mass adepts is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double archon drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Protoss.
Fact is that Zergs at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by archon drops, or mass adepts whereas zergling/baneling/queen drops is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double Zergling drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Zerg.
Instead of being a mindless parrot you should watch some more Starcraft.
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here.
That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that.....
Oh yeah by all means. But I'm guessing these Korean Protosses aren't exactly being vocal to Blizzard about the necessity of nerfing the stalker.
Take for example MajOr's opinion about the patch 3.10.1 liberator nerf when Protoss was in a similar position that Terran is now:
On January 24 2017 09:07 Major wrote: this is terrible. blizzard dont even follow their own game its kinda sad. without liberators being broken as they were. u simply cannot win fights since the marauder got nerfed so heavely at start of lotv. really what makes tvp strong early game is fact u can do a timing push 2-3 tank bio and its hard for protoss to stop but now days it isnt even that hard to stop protoss started to figure this out and stop dieing to it. so nerfing liberator is completly pointless.
my solution woulda been this nerf tank damage by some porcetange and in the same patch u nerf ravager so tank can deal with them still somewhat good, since u cant pick up em anymore.
sometimes i wonder if blizzard even listen to ppl that play their game or they just randomly make things up. so sad i wanna see terran win tvp fights with libs being bad in fights not 1 shotting templars / sentry and 3shotting stalker is huge. right now all fights center aboiut terran hopefully killing all stalkers so they dont get run over by just how much worse bio got since maruader split damage
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here.
That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that.....
Or you keep them as they are and look at potential Terran units to buff to help deal with them. I like stalkers being good. After tanks got buffed they were mostly garbage. They're fun units to use and require good control and mechanics to realize their full strength. From a design perspective they're more interesting than ever before.
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here.
That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that.....
Or you keep them as they are and look at potential Terran units to buff to help deal with them. I like stalkers being good. After tanks got buffed they were mostly garbage. They're fun units to use and require good control and mechanics to realize their full strength. From a design perspective they're more interesting than ever before.
I mean sure, but that is still a (indirect) nerf to Stalkers, no?
Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here.
That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that.....
]
Oh yeah by all means. But I'm guessing these Korean Protosses aren't exactly being vocal to Blizzard about the necessity of nerfing the stalker.
Take for example MajOr's opinion about the patch 3.10.1 liberator nerf when Protoss was in a similar position that Terran is now:
On January 24 2017 09:07 Major wrote: this is terrible. blizzard dont even follow their own game its kinda sad. without liberators being broken as they were. u simply cannot win fights since the marauder got nerfed so heavely at start of lotv. really what makes tvp strong early game is fact u can do a timing push 2-3 tank bio and its hard for protoss to stop but now days it isnt even that hard to stop protoss started to figure this out and stop dieing to it. so nerfing liberator is completly pointless.
my solution woulda been this nerf tank damage by some porcetange and in the same patch u nerf ravager so tank can deal with them still somewhat good, since u cant pick up em anymore.
sometimes i wonder if blizzard even listen to ppl that play their game or they just randomly make things up. so sad i wanna see terran win tvp fights with libs being bad in fights not 1 shotting templars / sentry and 3shotting stalker is huge. right now all fights center aboiut terran hopefully killing all stalkers so they dont get run over by just how much worse bio got since maruader split damage
Major is well-known for being biased and vocal about it. Which is why I said that it's the opinion of the Protoss pros that tips the scale.
Presumably those Protoss players are not idiots and are looking out for themselves by keeping their mouths shut, so as to cash in as much as possible on imbalance in their favor. It's one thing to privately agree with Major that P > T, and quite another to mention it to Blizzard.
We can hardly blame pros for behaving rationally (and thus dishonestly).
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros.
Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker.
None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda.
And he was right, actually... He was right then, and he is right now. You should show him how to play in TvP. What he says always corresponds with what he does, what about you? Pretty sure your words are equal in game. Really walk it like they talk it, huh. And it seems there is no understanding at all. Without them, there will be no scene. Accordingly, you will have nothing to comment or explain us that someone is "bias".
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong.
when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours.
but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you.
The fact that it's your job is exactly why you should check yourself for bias.
They are listening to the community, the previous thread had more people say they were against the Stalker being changed than for, I was actually one of the few who said that I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't see your post in that thread stating that you thought it was a good change/important to go through, did you contact the balance team another way to make sure your opinion was heard?
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, I'm not having a go at you for having an opinion, I am having a go at you for your way of expressing it. It's unconvincing and unprofessional. The balance team is making an effort to listen to the community, so if you disagree with their direction, make your case in an educated way.
Edit: I just had a look at your twitter and I see you did email the balance team, that's good, assuming you used more tact than your first post here.
I was one of the people that didn't like the stalker change but terran needs help in TvP. Just reverting the stalker nerf and giving terran nothing in return will just prolong the imbalance they were about to fix so I understand the frustration. They should make widow mines cloaked again and nerf the collossus and maybe revert the marauder nerf.
If they bring back old marauder it wilk snowball on TvZ. They would have to revert ultra nerf as well. Nobody wants to go back to bio wrecking ultras like they were lings. Especially with Infestors nerfed to the ground.
On December 15 2017 17:55 hiroshOne wrote: If they bring back old marauder it wilk snowball on TvZ. They would have to revert ultra nerf as well. Nobody wants to go back to bio wrecking ultras like they were lings. Especially with Infestors nerfed to the ground.
Ultralisks still have more armor than they did in HotS, and bio isn't too well positioned in TvZ currently, so I doubt bringing back the old marauder will break TvZ (though admittedly ghost snipe is better now). Besides that's a bridge that should be crossed if it happens.
On December 15 2017 17:55 hiroshOne wrote: If they bring back old marauder it wilk snowball on TvZ. They would have to revert ultra nerf as well. Nobody wants to go back to bio wrecking ultras like they were lings. Especially with Infestors nerfed to the ground.
Ultralisks still have more armor than they did in HotS, and bio isn't too well positioned in TvZ currently, so I doubt bringing back the old marauder will break TvZ (though admittedly ghost snipe is better now). Besides that's a bridge that should be crossed if it happens.
Yeah, with all that's been changed in LotV a single-shot marauder will not have anywhere close to gamebreaking effects. I think it's a great idea, personally. Bio is kind of just trash right now, fortunately the balance team is keeping an eye on it.
If they really, really wanted to get people to go bio again, I guess they could buff marines. But that would probably cause more problems than it would fix.
On December 15 2017 18:19 Noonius wrote: here's a thought to make raven great again: maybe bring back the damn seeker missile
Yes. Terran do not have a way to punish mass clumped up air any more.
Basically as soon as Protoss get their Carrier/Tempest/HT ball Terran is dead. And it is easier than ever to get to that point since Protoss is stronger in the early and mid game now.
Even before the Raven nerf late game was Protoss favored. Now TvP is just awful to play. Neither bio nor mech works, Terran hold no midgame advantage any more and late game is even more Protoss favored.
On December 15 2017 18:19 Noonius wrote: here's a thought to make raven great again: maybe bring back the damn seeker missile
Yes. Terran do not have a way to punish mass clumped up air any more.
Basically as soon as Protoss get their Carrier/Tempest/HT ball Terran is dead. And it is easier than ever to get to that point since Protoss is stronger in the early and mid game now.
Even before the Raven nerf late game was Protoss favored. Now TvP is just awful to play. Neither bio nor mech works, Terran hold no midgame advantage any more and late game is even more Protoss favored.
Nerfing skytoss seems a lot more sensible to me than trying to bring back a cancerous mass spellcaster composition. Ravens need help but mass ravens really doesn't.
One thing that I'm surprised more people aren't talking about is the viper which is the key unit in TvZ lategame. Parasitic Bomb in particular seems too strong at 120 damage and annihilates vikings even better than pre- patch.
On December 15 2017 18:19 Noonius wrote: here's a thought to make raven great again: maybe bring back the damn seeker missile
Yes. Terran do not have a way to punish mass clumped up air any more.
Basically as soon as Protoss get their Carrier/Tempest/HT ball Terran is dead. And it is easier than ever to get to that point since Protoss is stronger in the early and mid game now.
Even before the Raven nerf late game was Protoss favored. Now TvP is just awful to play. Neither bio nor mech works, Terran hold no midgame advantage any more and late game is even more Protoss favored.
Nerfing skytoss seems a lot more sensible to me than trying to bring back a cancerous mass spellcaster composition. Ravens need help but mass ravens really doesn't.
One thing that I'm surprised more people aren't talking about is the viper which is the key unit in TvZ lategame. Parasitic Bomb in particular seems too strong at 120 damage and annihilates vikings even better than pre- patch.
Yes I agree that nerfing skytoss is the right move but Blizzard seems to have a blind spot when it comes to nerfing skytoss. Maybe because it is not as abused on pro level as much compared to normal level? But neither where mass Ravens, they were mostly a ladder problem, not a pro problem.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
lol, major didn't even post a real opinion, just whining
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 10:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
lol, major didn't even post a real opinion, just whining
"Every balance concern that i don't agree with is whining, even when it comes from a pro player that's arguably the best foreign terran atm".
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 10:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
lol, major didn't even post a real opinion, just whining
I really like Scarlett and major as players and people but when it comes to their balancing whining... I can't take anything scarlett says about protoss seriously. Even if top 8s at major tournements were all zerg and 1 protoss she would still whine.. Oh wait that does happen lmao. And neeb blows everyone out of the game.
Anyways, its not like people who argued to keep the stalker strong didn't disagree with terran buffs elsewhere.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 10:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
lol, major didn't even post a real opinion, just whining
"Every balance concern that i don't agree with is whining, even when it comes from a pro player that's arguably the best foreign terran atm".
Well isn't that great.
i do agree with him, ravens are bad right now. but there was no actual substance/suggestions/criticism in that quote other than "fuck you blizz, ravens still suck". that is the definition of whining, plain and simple.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 10:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
lol, major didn't even post a real opinion, just whining
"Every balance concern that i don't agree with is whining, even when it comes from a pro player that's arguably the best foreign terran atm".
Well isn't that great.
i do agree with him, ravens are bad right now. but there was no actual substance/suggestions/criticism in that quote other than "fuck you blizz, ravens still suck". that is the definition of whining, plain and simple.
did u bother to even read?
Stalker is just simply put too strong, they buffed alot of protoss core unit (collosus and stalker) and kept terran army exactly the same but a nerf to ghost and mine.
they removed mothership core. and while its a big change its not that big. if you pay close attention to progames before patch vs Terran they would make mothership core if they knew A) all in was coming B) after taking a 3rd base because there was very little terran could do cause oracle opening was so strong. so in this patch for the lack of mothership core. which was already a pretty lated build unit vs Terran. they gave it a stornger stalker, a pretty good defence in the battery shield a stronger collosus. and completly imbalanced recall that needs at very least be more mana 50 mana is a joke for what it does. and a Stronger chrno boost. all this buffs for the removal of 1 unit. does it really merit it? of course not
now lets see what they changed for terran
Raven - Healing drone useless vs p, Misile useless vs P , Matrix can be good vs P but not really worth making it to disable an unit for some seconds. its expensive and delays alot of your tech atleast in old patch you could use turrets to help your push when they played robo or pdd to stop stalkers shots
Mine - Nerfed
Ghost - Nerfed. starting with cloak all it does it make some cheeses more strong that all are stopped by making a shield battery in your mineral line anyway. when you make ghost in tvp you need the energy to do the timing rush. ghost are not like templar u dont make ghost to just sit there and let em grow mana like templars. because they are not good defensive units. so making em start with less mana and adding the upgrade again its a bad change and not a very well tought one
New mech upgrades - they ok but this dosent adress any balance at all just a niche
so as you can clearly see they mostly nerf terran and buff protoss for the compesation of the removal of 1 unit. and i dont blame them i thought the removal of msc would be bigger. but if you really think about it. protoss was already making it very late because its not really needed to defend anything terran trowed at them during last patch. and same holds in this one. but instead they buffed like 5 things that are core for protoss.
if that isnt explained well enough its the best u gonna get. cause i dont devote my life to writing on forums its pretty well explained they buff alot of protoss for the removal of 1 unit that wasnt that key in the match up? not that hard to undestearnd
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
Assaulted? Hahaha! Good one mate.
Major eventually gave proper opinions, his first comment was just whining. If you actually paid attention to what I was saying in my posts, you would see I don't even disagree with his opinion on the balance, but his shitty attitude. The balance team seems to be genuinely trying to work things out, and are communicating openly with us, firing back with "they're clueless, they need to quit" is not helping.
Agreed, they should be stating their opinions, but that doesn't mean that we should bow down and worship them for it, they are humans and should be able to have a reasonable discussion. Just like the balance team is made up of people, and if you present reasonable arguments instead of telling them to quit, they just may be more likely to listen.
I think the problem with the Raven abilities are the following:
1. The armour-debuff does not synergize well with mech. 3 more damage from tanks is almost nothing, Thors fight against Carrier/Tempest in single target mode and 3 more damage does very little to change the outcome of the fight.
Solution: Make the target units take 20% more damage from attacks instead.
2. The healing ability heals too slowly compared to medivacs and shield batteries. It is only slightly useful after a battle, it would be better if healed faster so that it would help in the actual batttle.
Solution: Make the healing ability heal faster.
3. The lockdown ability is only useful in TvT against tanks. All other high value targets simply retreat if you try to shut down their attack.
Solution: The target unit also moves 50% slower making it easier to snipe retreating units. This would really help against Carrier/Tempest/HT which Terran curently do not have a good answer to.
On December 15 2017 23:01 MockHamill wrote: ... 3. The lockdown ability is only useful in TvT against tanks. All other high value targets simply retreat if you try to shut down their attack.
Solution: The target unit also moves 50% slower making it easier to snipe retreating units.
I really don't want more slowing abilities in this game. We have more than I like right now, we don't need any other. (I would appreciate removing all of them including force field, but then the Protss buff would cause some players heart attacks)
On December 15 2017 23:01 MockHamill wrote: I think the problem with the Raven abilities are the following:
1. The armour-debuff does not synergize well with mech. 3 more damage from tanks is almost nothing, Thors fight against Carrier/Tempest in single target mode and 3 more damage does very little to change the outcome of the fight.
Solution: Make the target units take 20% more damage from attacks instead.
2. The healing ability heals too slowly compared to medivacs and shield batteries. It is only slightly useful after a battle, it would be better if healed faster so that it would help in the actual batttle.
Solution: Make the healing ability heal faster.
3. The lockdown ability is only useful in TvT against tanks. All other high value targets simply retreat if you try to shut down their attack.
Solution: The target unit also moves 50% slower making it easier to snipe retreating units. This would really help against Carrier/Tempest/HT which Terran curently do not have a good answer to.
It should either work like lockdown so the unit cannot move or have a much higher duration. They can even make it cost 75 energy if necessary but make the spell worth ir.
On December 15 2017 18:19 Noonius wrote: here's a thought to make raven great again: maybe bring back the damn seeker missile
Yes. Terran do not have a way to punish mass clumped up air any more.
Basically as soon as Protoss get their Carrier/Tempest/HT ball Terran is dead. And it is easier than ever to get to that point since Protoss is stronger in the early and mid game now.
Even before the Raven nerf late game was Protoss favored. Now TvP is just awful to play. Neither bio nor mech works, Terran hold no midgame advantage any more and late game is even more Protoss favored.
you clearly never played against BCS/Ravens, it was impossible to beat as protoss. I wonder how it is now with no PDD.
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman. No disrespect Major, you're a better player then I could ever hope to become but let's face it, your comment is dumb and aggressive, this balance team is leagues better then David Kim, regardless if you are unhappy about the current position that Terran is in, I didn't exactly see you winning any premier tournaments when Terran was in a good spot balance wise or anything.
This patch is fantastic, Stalkers shouldn't have been nerfed because they are pointing Protoss in the right direction, powerful and expensive low tier units that benefit from micro, making them weaker wasn't the right thing to do.
The Disruptor seems like the Swarm Host in a different race, a unit that is too complex to gracefully balance and teeters on being overpowered or underpowered, they should just put the Reaver in while the Protoss metagame is still malleable and be done with it.
Zerg probably is a bit too strong vs. Protoss right now but it teeters on a razors edge, Protoss either falls apart to early game aggression, played way too passive and get's out expanded too much to recover, or gets their invincible army and the Zerg looks helpeless, ZvP has some weird dynamics going on at the moment.
Perhaps Hydralisks are too strong vs ground units and could be changed to be more fragile but more potent against air? Say, revert their health back but give them + 1 range vs air units? They just get obliterated so hard by Phoenix/Oracle (I know this has been slightly nerfed), Carriers, even Void Rays in critical mass burn them down but Protoss ground units need to engage Hydralisk armies extremely carefully or they get wrecked, perhaps that dynamic could be tweaked and improved?
so u relize they buffed stalker collosus disruptor chnro boost gave em recall all on 1 patch and they gave terran. nerf on ghost nerf on mine a servos upgrade and a worse raven. and they expect for TvP to be balanced exacltly why?.
why if you make all protoss army stronger and terran army kept the same. why would the match up remain balanced?. also when exactly was terran good?. terran was good around iem katowice thats been almost a year brother so idk what u saying here.
So, this balance team has clearly seen that Protoss is favoured and are nerfing chrono and disruptors in order to see where we are after that, and based on their responses they are clearly actually listening to community feedback. And you have the audacity to whine and tell them to step down? Grow up dude.
On December 15 2017 10:02 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On December 15 2017 06:45 Major wrote: who ever runs the balance needs to step down already. so clueless about this game. so nothing changes but make oracle build faster and again useless raven abilitys good job
And here we see the, "High level players opinions on balance is good but they are biased and their opinions aren't gospel." in action ladies and gentleman.
Just gotta love those people that casually play a game but like to spout their opinion about it on a forum trying to disprove the balance concerns of pro players (that are actually trying to make a living out of it). We finally have the chance to get pro players really taking a side about balance matters only to be assaulted by uninformed idiots.
Glad major and scarlett are stating their opinions, and there should be more pro players doing so.
Assaulted? Hahaha! Good one mate.
Major eventually gave proper opinions, his first comment was just whining. If you actually paid attention to what I was saying in my posts, you would see I don't even disagree with his opinion on the balance, but his shitty attitude. The balance team seems to be genuinely trying to work things out, and are communicating openly with us, firing back with "they're clueless, they need to quit" is not helping.
Agreed, they should be stating their opinions, but that doesn't mean that we should bow down and worship them for it, they are humans and should be able to have a reasonable discussion. Just like the balance team is made up of people, and if you present reasonable arguments instead of telling them to quit, they just may be more likely to listen.
Was going to pretty much same this same thing but you beat me to it. If Major would have led off with his explanations and not, "Omfg balance team so bad don't even play their own game they need to quit" is just retarded and will get you flamed no matter who you are, especially a pro player who should be able to chime in with something a bit more productive.
By the way, they should buff Terran by reverting the Marauder changes, that nerf was done at a time when Ultralisks were bad and Terran was too strong, that's no longer the case and bio is suffering, it's time to make the Marauder great again.
Stalkers are ridiculously strong, 3 hits/ marine WHAT??? Can't wait to see Protoss murders Terran in up coming tournaments. We all know top Terran have been struggling so much vs Protoss these days.
The problem with the Raven is that it is either too strong or too weak. The unit is supposed to be specialize and support... But if it is too strong... Like before 4.0 patch, then just mass build them.
Now they make it so weak, it is almost useless.
Haha they should just bring back the science vessel. Not too strong and not too weak.
On December 15 2017 14:08 Skyro wrote: Curious so what do the pros think of current PvZ balance? If they agree it is heavily zerg favored, then taking a holistic view wouldn't it make sense to buff T? Multiple nerfs to PvZ would only further the PvZ imbalance, possibly worse than PvT is now.
I'm not going to argue pros opinions on balance, all I can say is that the Stalker is a lot more fun to use and feels like it actually has a defined role now, which is really good in terms of game design. Previously it felt like an expensive unit that hit like a wet noodle and the only time you wanted to build it late game is when you needed emergency AA.
yeah of course you find Stalkers are more fun to use since you can use it against all Terran's opening and try your FANCY micro again poor marines with only 45hp and short firing range, lol.
This just in... even with the "buffs to protoss".... PvT is only sitting at 53% winrate. Meanwhile... ZvP also sits at 54%
Funny isn't it, how protoss gets the whine hate, while another matchup is just as imblanced... It's almost as if PvT had been ludicrously imbalanced to favor terrans since May (not reaching even 48% until October) and the dramatic shift in balance (while not actually any less imblanced: see that 45% June winrate heh) is actually what people like Major are perceiving as unfair.
Oh, and I know this isn't exactly something that can easily be done without extensive changes to the terran race mechanics.... but I think MMM should be absolute garbage past midgame. People have the audacity to mention how unfair a T2 unit like stalkers scale (still scaling poorly btw even with +2), when bio at 25 minutes is still somehow a thing... Obviously if you wanted to balance the game against that insanity, you probably need to improve the synergy and reduce the switching cost between bio and mech (after all, while not the same game, one of Flash's greatest contributions to BW was showing how to safely and reliably make the mech transition in all matchups).
Final comment... I was in the heavily minority camp at the beginning of the beta test that the change to chronoboost wasn't going to be good for balance and was unnecessary, but people wanted "more micro ability, and the foolproofness of protoss econ boosts removed". Congratz there (off-hand comment about queuing larva injects).
An important change I would like to see in the future is earlier and more prolonged testing phase where both pros and casual players can start trying out the changes. The testing windows were too short this past year (Closing on Oct. 15 seems dramatically too quick now.)
I like the design philosophy of having regular big changes to shake up the meta, but I think a corresponding necessity is to have balance tweaks consistently running on the "testing" matchmaker so that they can more quickly make reasonable tweaks. The new Raven was introduced on August 31, and here we are on Dec. 15 starting to barely tweak its abilities. The unit is comparable in utility to a Sentry right now, and it costs 100 minerals 200 gas and requires a Starport with a Tech Lab. Its general design seems to approximate Vipers in some ways, but the utility of Ravens in comparison with Vipers is laughable.
Right now it seems like the balance team is like a little raft sailing on public opinion, and we Terrans are sunk to the bottom of the sea.
On December 16 2017 01:51 Ransomstarcraft wrote: An important change I would like to see in the future is earlier and more prolonged testing phase where both pros and casual players can start trying out the changes. The testing windows were too short this past year (Closing on Oct. 15 seems dramatically too quick now.)
I like the design philosophy of having regular big changes to shake up the meta, but I think a corresponding necessity is to have balance tweaks consistently running on the "testing" matchmaker so that they can more quickly make reasonable tweaks. The new Raven was introduced on August 31, and here we are on Dec. 15 starting to barely tweak its abilities. The unit is comparable in utility to a Sentry right now, and it costs 100 minerals 200 gas and requires a Starport with a Tech Lab. Its general design seems to approximate Vipers in some ways, but the utility of Ravens in comparison with Vipers is laughable.
Right now it seems like the balance team is like a little raft sailing on public opinion, and we Terrans are sunk to the bottom of the sea.
The issue with the Raven was that they kept changing the ideas of the spells, instead of sticking with one set and making the numbers work properly (actually a general issue. The testing period was pretty nice and long if you make a set of changes and then tweak the numbers, but it was far too short when half of the time was spent on radical changes back and forth they didn't end up bringing live).
Anyways, sentries cost 100 gas as well... and instantly die to everything that can reach them, and aren't detectors... Like I think in general, terran's have been relying on not using ravens (or using them only for harass) for so long that they underestimate how much a single scan (to protect against something that a raven might see) costs in effective income. With the rise of lurkers and mass infestor play, denying protoss map vision from observers, or heck even the more and more common banshee play in TvT, Ravens would be functionally useful with no abilities whatsoever.
But yes, the energy costs and numbers games of Ravens can use some tweaking, and it's good that they are doing that.
which had 53.7 and 46.3. If you wan't to complain about the numbers there. Fine enough. I used consistent sources with the most recent data that consistent source showed. I can use the other set instead.
Point is.... you don't see the same number people on the forums bitching about how imba Zerg is even though balance is EVEN worse there. (In fact, you still see Scarlett talk about how the matchup wasn't zerg favored before, and still isn't.)
On December 15 2017 13:46 Scarlett` wrote: I guess it depends if blizzard want to balance for pro level or for average players- At pro level stalker is clearly too good in pvt but i guess all the feedback from non pros say they like it that way
That's the important point here. With pro level micro it's probably imba but with average (let's say my) level of micro it's probably not (that much).
That said balancing for the average player is kinda pointless but pro player feedback is usually also very biased. Well if even Protoss agrees in this case...
which had 53.7 and 46.3. If you wan't to complain about the numbers there. Fine enough. I used consistent sources with the most recent data that consistent source showed. I can use the other set instead.
Point is.... you don't see the same number people on the forums bitching about how imba Zerg is even though balance is EVEN worse there. (In fact, you still see Scarlett talk about how the matchup wasn't zerg favored before, and still isn't.)
1. Your "consistent" source includes almost half a month's worth of games that weren't played on the patch. If you're going to cite Aligulac at least select the right data. 2. Obviously PvZ is a problem, plenty of people are complaining about it, and it's on the list of things that Blizzard is looking at. 3. PvZ is bad, but Protoss is heavily favored in TvP which mitigates the situation somewhat, and it exacerbates the PvZ problem in tournaments since weaker Protosses can knock out stronger Terrans to advance, then lose when they face a Zerg. Meanwhile TvZ looks even to slightly unfavored for T, which is why they're getting more attention at this point, and this is reflected in their representation as well as winrates (look at the number of games where each race is present).
Really? Because I'm not seeing those posts on Reddit or here complaining about the pvz balance. Must be selectively avoiding it.
Anyways I was using the balance report consistently. There is no dec one yet. I was explicitly comparing all those balance reports to previous ones. If you want me to pick two week windows instead, go ahead and look at the June 22 report. Which indicates again my issue with all this discussion.
"weaker zergs" can knockout stronger protoss to advance then lose to terrans. It's the exact same issue.
Resorting to stats is stupid since the patch is so "young". Just watch pro streams, listen to what pros have to say about the changes.
Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
On December 16 2017 06:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
Happy to hear that, but I think the Korean Terrans in GSL would say otherwise.
PvT is hilariously broken atm, neither bio nor mech are viable at the pro level. I watched Inno play herO and lose six times in a row yesterday, nothing worked. Bio, mech, cheese, whatever. The chrono nerf will probably help things, but I very much doubt it will be enough. I'm fine with keeping stalkers as-is, but Terran needs a buff–bio with mines/libs can't even beat gateway let alone deathballs.
To be fair, PvZ is also pretty broken too. So I'm glad the balance team is keeping an eye on that. Since nerfing Protoss earlygame will probably make things even worse, and mech is standard in TvZ, buffing bio looks to be the right track imo. The balance team even said they are watching bio specifically.
I do wish the balance team would move a bit faster though, will probably be late January or so at this rate before balance is restored. In other words, pretty much the same length and severity as the horrendous PvT balance after 3.8. Really does seem like the balance team has learned nothing from last year.
On December 16 2017 06:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play Terran and i'd rather have a 45//55 matchup in TvP that is a fun experience than have a 55//45 matchup where the game revolves around non-stop air wars.
if i occasionally get beat by some Protoss player who is "theoretically" worse than me... whatever. its not that important.
what is most important to me is Blizzard's first rule : "Gameplay First!"
Happy to hear that, but I think the Korean Terrans in GSL would say otherwise.
PvT is hilariously broken atm, neither bio nor mech are viable at the pro level. I watched Inno play herO and lose six times in a row yesterday, nothing worked. Bio, mech, cheese, whatever. The chrono nerf will probably help things, but I very much doubt it will be enough. I'm fine with keeping stalkers as-is, but Terran needs a buff–bio with mines/libs can't even beat gateway let alone deathballs.
To be fair, PvZ is also pretty broken too. So I'm glad the balance team is keeping an eye on that. Since nerfing Protoss earlygame will probably make things even worse, and mech is standard in TvZ, buffing bio looks to be the right track imo. The balance team even said they are watching bio specifically.
I do wish the balance team would move a bit faster though, will probably be late January or so at this rate before balance is restored. In other words, pretty much the same length and severity as the horrendous PvT balance after 3.8. Really does seem like the balance team has learned nothing from last year.
the game must be balanced at the GSL level. if its imbalanced at my level i don't care.
I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote: I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
i think the problem is that this is a gimmicky and unreliable tactic if zerg is ready for it they just focus the medivacs down and bam mines are gone. If it were reliable than thats fine let the meta develop, this strat is not very reliable though and mostly just displays the shear desperation terran have in these late game situations without a decent raven and with the current 120 dmg parasitic bomb shredding vikings. It used to be that you could focus the vikings and only some pbs would land so it mitigated the dmg, but now all they need is one or two decent pbs and huge clumps of your air get shredded.
this would be less of a problem if blizzard would make bio decent at the pro level vs zerg again, but right now Terran are in the double jeopardy of needing to kill them before they get there while at the same time not having a strong enough midgame to reliably do so. Blizzard needs to pick one either zerg is supposed to crush terran late game fair enough but if thats the case it needs to be way harder for them to reach that late game like it is in pvz with skytoss, or terran needs to be on an even playing ground in the late game. Zerg should not both be strong in the mid game and untouchable in the late game.
On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote: I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
Yeah, so during HOTS where the only thing terran did every and each TvP was an SCV pull against stalker-colossi because lategame was unplayable, the "meta developed on its own". How great of an era was that !
Reliable is probably the wrong word as from what I've seen it's working quite well but... I dunno - it just feels wrong to me. I don't have any arguments for that, that's just my subjective feeling. But where's the problem for making vikings an answer to air again? Skyterran isn't a thing anymore with the raven nerf and PB isn't really used in ZvP anyways so why not just nerf/remove it.
On December 16 2017 17:11 Charoisaur wrote: Reliable is probably the wrong word as from what I've seen it's working quite well but... I dunno - it just feels wrong to me. I don't have any arguments for that, that's just my subjective feeling. But where's the problem for making vikings an answer to air again? Skyterran isn't a thing anymore with the raven nerf and PB isn't really used in ZvP anyways so why not just nerf/remove it.
It definitely should be nerfed. While they removed the stacking and added a small delay, increasing the damage to 120 was a huge buff (vikings only have 125 hp).
On December 15 2017 23:01 MockHamill wrote: I think the problem with the Raven abilities are the following:
1. The armour-debuff does not synergize well with mech. 3 more damage from tanks is almost nothing, Thors fight against Carrier/Tempest in single target mode and 3 more damage does very little to change the outcome of the fight.
Solution: Make the target units take 20% more damage from attacks instead.
I think the bold part is quite important. I always thought the debuff-ability would work wonders for terran, since it's effectively a temporary upgrade advantage, that's usually considered huge. But this is only the case for bio.
So it would be interesting to see whether this raven ability synergizes well with bio. Has anyone seen a game where that's tried?
An alternative solution to make this work with mech would be to not debuff the enemy, but to buff your own units. Increasing the tank's armor by 3(might even have to be less) would have more of an impact, since the enemies usually have lower damage numbers.
(As a follow up to that, the damage of the anti.armor missile could be added to the interference matrix. This might even lead to nice interactions, since you would want to micro the targetable units of the interference matrix separately, making them more vulnerable to flanks)
On December 16 2017 08:15 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: hit&run kinda guerilla style unit became 'blink into tanks and marauders and be fine' unit lol
This is simply not true. Stalkers have the same HP and dps as before. You are able to snipe one tank, marauder, medevac or liberator, but when T has several then they are as shitty as before. This sniping "ability" was exactly what Blizzard was looking for, as a design goal.
If bio is struggling vs both P and Z, then the proper response is to buff it. I suggest to reduce the stim upgrade time, it takes forever right now. This way T can be earlier aggressive if wanted, defend easier to timing attacks or delay the start of the upgrade and develop the economy earlier.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
Tell us than o wise one what high tech units Terran has make to deal with viper broodlord that they can make after building 5+ factories or 8+ rax on an inferior or even economy? I'm sure Terran pros trying to drop widowmines on broodlords would love for you to share your wisdom with them.
On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote: I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
Yeah, so during HOTS where the only thing terran did every and each TvP was an SCV pull against stalker-colossi because lategame was unplayable, the "meta developed on its own". How great of an era was that !
So do you believe that metas should not be able to develop on their own then? Because you didn't like some of them? Dropping mines on broodlords seems very effective if the zerg isn't prepared. I don't see anything wrong with the tactic
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
On December 16 2017 13:04 Fango wrote: I'm just sitting here hoping they'll reverse the ghost changes from 4.0 lol. This patch only seemed to make ghost rushes more viable and not mid-lategame use. Being attacked while waiting for an EMP to be ready is painful
On December 16 2017 03:46 JackONeill wrote:Right now watching pro KR terrans resort to mine drops to try to blow up BL/corruptors because both the viking and the thor are hard countered by the viper shows that there's something wrong in this area.
What's actually wrong with pros using mine drops to kill broodlords though? Are metas not supposed to develop on their own anyway?
Yeah, so during HOTS where the only thing terran did every and each TvP was an SCV pull against stalker-colossi because lategame was unplayable, the "meta developed on its own". How great of an era was that !
So do you believe that metas should not be able to develop on their own then? Because you didn't like some of them? Dropping mines on broodlords seems very effective if the zerg isn't prepared. I don't see anything wrong with the tactic
Hydras with vypers also work fairly well if the tanks have not had time to spread and Terran isn't fielding 15+vikings
When tank counts are low ravens are also realy strong vs tanks so much so that I thinks it's starting to affect bio viability in tvt. One or two ravens can neutralize 3-4 tanks which can really tip midgame engagements and makes it much easier to take a third with mech vs bio. Sadly it feels like the only matchup ravens are good in is the mirror. I think if you buffed the range on interference matrix they would actually be quite good in tvp since the problem right now is they are unable to survive the stalker shots and feedbacks to land there spells on immortals and collosi.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue.
Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down.
Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue.
Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down.
Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood.
It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Hmm it's not like vikings are too strong vs protoss at all so a viking buff would help there too. TvT is a mirror so it will balance out regardless. I actually like the idea of a viking buff, maybe +20 HP or so.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue.
Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down.
Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood.
It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it.
See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one.
Am I right in that statement? Because if I am, is it not a nerf against Mutalisks/Vikings/stacking units and was a huge buff against high HP targets like Carriers/Voids?
Apologies if I'm way off base on that one.
Oh don't shake your head at a 15 HP buff, that leaves them with 20 extra HP which would enable them to get off at least another volley or 2 before they are dead, assuming they don't have a Raven flock dropping heal drones, small buffs can make a big difference. Need I remind anyone of +1 range on Roaches?
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue.
Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down.
Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood.
It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it.
See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one.
It still affects the vikings around the inflicted one, it just means that if 2 parasitic bombs overlap the damage won't be doubled anymore. So 1 post-patch PB on a clump of viking is as effective as 2 PBs pre-patch.
On December 16 2017 18:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Zerg has to make broodlords/vipers to deal with techless mass tanks.
Tanks are way too strong when you mass them, nothing on the ground can beat them.
Vikings counter both vipers/broodlords for like no tech too and they're really cheap.
Without air superiority zerg can't maintain their broodlords/vipers alive and have nothing that can beat the deathball of tanks/hellbats/thors.
So weaker air for zerg, mean nerf tanks/thors.
You're absolutely right that Zerg eventually needs air vs heavy ground units but I think right now the cost-efficiency of Zerg air armies vs terran air armies is way too high. I saw a game between Rogue and Cure (BTSL) where Cure produced huge viking wave after huge viking wave which all got destroyed by parasitic bomb with very little effort. I think toning Zerg AA down to a point where the Zerg air transition is still strong but it isn't completely worthless for terran to build air units would be welcome.
The problem isn't Zerg air being too strong, it's that Terran air is too weak considering no meaningful buffs have ever really been shifted over the the Viking. Zerg is powerful vs. Protoss but pretty vulnerable to their aerial armies, so I'm not sure that nerfing Zerg air power is the way to fix this.
tldr
Buff Vikings
Revert Marauder nerfs, bio needs a bone.
With parasitic bomb as is vikings would have to be buffed to high heaven to be viable at which point they'd be broken against everything else.
Does Parasitic Bomb stack anymore? I could very well be wrong but as I recall the single target damage was buffed to 120 (which of course is bad for 125 HP Vikings) but the stacking ability was removed so it can target only 1 Vikings at a time, which obviously was attempting to throw Zerg a bone to deal with mass Protoss sky armies which even to this day remains an issue.
Perhaps even a slight 10 - 15 HP buff on the Vikings so they can't be one shotted? I can't even remember the last time the Viking was buffed, it's probably due for at least a small one and if that pushes them overboard well then numbers can always be dialed down.
Still, Blizzard should really consider reverting the Marauder double shot change, at the time of that nerf it was warranted but times have changed, the meta has evolved, and it's no longer warranted as Zerg late game is all but undoubtedly superior to Terran. I really don't want this to be the Siege Tank all over again where they wait years to buff it for reasons nobody quite understood.
It doesn't stack anymore and they added a 0.7 sec delay, but now it deals twice the damage so viking clouds end up half dead even if you split. I doubt 10-15 hp would help much against it.
See this is where I'm getting lost, so it doesn't stack, so that means when you hit one Viking with a PB it leaves that one Viking with 5 HP and it doesn't affect the Vikings around the afflicted one.
Am I right in that statement? Because if I am, is it not a nerf against Mutalisks/Vikings/stacking units and was a huge buff against high HP targets like Carriers/Voids?
Apologies if I'm way off base on that one.
Oh don't shake your head at a 15 HP buff, that leaves them with 20 extra HP which would enable them to get off at least another volley or 2 before they are dead, assuming they don't have a Raven flock dropping heal drones, small buffs can make a big difference. Need I remind anyone of +1 range on Roaches?
No it just works like storm now if 2 overlap they don't both do dmg in the overlapping area. But overall the current pb is better than the old one since you need less vipers to achieve the same result, its harder to deny the pb by sniping the vipers with target fire since zerg needs to land less pbs and the dmg is higher but applied over the same periods of time meaning even if you split reactively you still take massive dmg the only thing that mitigates it is a huge pre battle split but than it's difficult to take advantage of the vikings range advantage over curropters since kiting=clumping. If Vikings don't kite than they get completely outclassed by corrupter so you lose the air war anyway. Right now the best anti air option Terran has is thors, the problem with thors is that they are slow, clunky, and very vulnerable to abducts and blinding clouds. They are great a mutas but lackluster vs late game zerg air. Hence why you see pros using gimmicky tactics like mine drops on top of the brood lords.
I know this is an old suggestion. But one day Blizzard should change the pathing of the units, so that the game becomes less volatile to one baneling, one storm, one fungal, etc. Then if spells neeeded a buff, do it. Even for lower leagues the game would be more balanced too.
On December 15 2017 06:23 Ransomstarcraft wrote: D. Give the new Ghost, or an upgraded Reaper the ability to plant a bomb that would destroy or dramatically damage an opponent's tech building so that the explosion followed by a Reaper attack could flip the game on its side or something.
Can we please refer to this as "the Tanja upgrade"?
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
I was making a point about that specific point he was making about TvP early game which personally I didn't find too accurate. I am completely on board with the fact that TvP is really hard and needs changes. However, some of my thoughts:
I don't agree that everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with stalkers. Yes, they have the potential to hold off most of the stuff, which is why it's such a good opening atm. But you still need really good position to hold off the the hellion build for example, it's not as clear cut as build stalkers and hold easy (I bring this up because we saw Stats just die to hellions multiple games and he was opening stalkers into blink > 3 gates > robo every single game). I've seen many games recently and IMO, they all show a lot of terran early game strength. If Protoss gets to mid-game, yeah the matchup is pretty messed up, I completely agree. I guess my intended point is that Blizzard needs to direct their attention to the later part of TvP, rather than the early game (e.g. I think looking at stalker upgrades would be more beneficial than looking at nerving Stalker's base stats, although potentially those could be toned down as well). That guy was trying to vouch for ridiculous buffs to the Terran early game that would make the matchup a complete mess and goes against the gameplay of most pro games in recent weeks. I think the oracle and shield battery nerf actually made quite the difference in balancing out the TvP early game a lot more.
TvP needs tweaking. It does not need movable bunkers, cyclones with hellion speed or reapers as fast as zerglings that can shoot air (yes he actually suggested all of those).
On the reaper note, have you seen the gumiho game? I think it has potential and is unexplored although I won't vouch for it being a super safe, every-game build. I do think proxy reaper builds are really strong right now though, I've faced a lot of GMs on the ladder doing multiple rax reaper and it can be brutal (uThermal beat Showtime with it the other day too)
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
I was making a point about that specific point he was making about TvP early game which personally I didn't find too accurate. I am completely on board with the fact that TvP is really hard and needs changes. However, some of my thoughts:
I don't agree that everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with stalkers. Yes, they have the potential to hold off most of the stuff, which is why it's such a good opening atm. But you still need really good position to hold off the the hellion build for example, it's not as clear cut as build stalkers and hold easy (I bring this up because we saw Stats just die to hellions multiple games and he was opening stalkers into blink > 3 gates > robo every single game). I've seen many games recently and IMO, they all show a lot of terran early game strength. If Protoss gets to mid-game, yeah the matchup is pretty messed up, I completely agree. I guess my intended point is that Blizzard needs to direct their attention to the later part of TvP, rather than the early game (e.g. I think looking at stalker upgrades would be more beneficial than looking at nerving Stalker's base stats, although potentially those could be toned down as well). That guy was trying to vouch for ridiculous buffs to the Terran early game that would make the matchup a complete mess and goes against the gameplay of most pro games in recent weeks. I think the oracle and shield battery nerf actually made quite the difference in balancing out the TvP early game a lot more.
TvP needs tweaking. It does not need movable bunkers, cyclones with hellion speed or reapers as fast as zerglings that can shoot air (yes he actually suggested all of those).
On the reaper note, have you seen the gumiho game? I think it has potential and is unexplored although I won't vouch for it being a super safe, every-game build. I do think proxy reaper builds are really strong right now though, I've faced a lot of GMs on the ladder doing multiple rax reaper and it can be brutal (uThermal beat Showtime with it the other day too)
As for the hellion thing, its more of a gimmick that does insane damage when units are out of position and zero damage when units are in position. As protoss learn to deal with it, its not going to be viable. I think the current most consistent terran opening to get damage done right now is cloaked banshees vs nonstargate openers - since you can always retreat into the deadspace and since banshees are faster than obs.
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
I was making a point about that specific point he was making about TvP early game which personally I didn't find too accurate. I am completely on board with the fact that TvP is really hard and needs changes. However, some of my thoughts:
I don't agree that everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with stalkers. Yes, they have the potential to hold off most of the stuff, which is why it's such a good opening atm. But you still need really good position to hold off the the hellion build for example, it's not as clear cut as build stalkers and hold easy (I bring this up because we saw Stats just die to hellions multiple games and he was opening stalkers into blink > 3 gates > robo every single game). I've seen many games recently and IMO, they all show a lot of terran early game strength. If Protoss gets to mid-game, yeah the matchup is pretty messed up, I completely agree. I guess my intended point is that Blizzard needs to direct their attention to the later part of TvP, rather than the early game (e.g. I think looking at stalker upgrades would be more beneficial than looking at nerving Stalker's base stats, although potentially those could be toned down as well). That guy was trying to vouch for ridiculous buffs to the Terran early game that would make the matchup a complete mess and goes against the gameplay of most pro games in recent weeks. I think the oracle and shield battery nerf actually made quite the difference in balancing out the TvP early game a lot more.
TvP needs tweaking. It does not need movable bunkers, cyclones with hellion speed or reapers as fast as zerglings that can shoot air (yes he actually suggested all of those).
On the reaper note, have you seen the gumiho game? I think it has potential and is unexplored although I won't vouch for it being a super safe, every-game build. I do think proxy reaper builds are really strong right now though, I've faced a lot of GMs on the ladder doing multiple rax reaper and it can be brutal (uThermal beat Showtime with it the other day too)
As for the hellion thing, its more of a gimmick that does insane damage when units are out of position and zero damage when units are in position. As protoss learn to deal with it, its not going to be viable. I think the current most consistent terran opening to get damage done right now is cloaked banshees vs nonstargate openers - since you can always retreat into the deadspace and since banshees are faster than obs.
I don't think banshee openings are good because shield batteries realy mitigate the dmg the can do to probes it takes sooo long for a banshe to start doing dmg to probes being healed by a battery. They are a reasonable transition in late game for a Terran as a stepping stone to bcs if Protoss has no or very few phonix, but early game they have to be a surprise or the hold from Protoss is really straightforward they just build a battery per mineral line pull probes not covered by the battery send the stalker and the obs over and the banshee will do almost no dmg at all. Banshees are a somewhat large investment from Terran so if they do next to nothing Terran is in a bad spot they are not like oracles that have revelation and stasis to provide untility even if they are shut down, if you go banshees as Terran you must do dmg with them to be in an ok position. I think your much better off with other types of harass.
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
I was making a point about that specific point he was making about TvP early game which personally I didn't find too accurate. I am completely on board with the fact that TvP is really hard and needs changes. However, some of my thoughts:
I don't agree that everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with stalkers. Yes, they have the potential to hold off most of the stuff, which is why it's such a good opening atm. But you still need really good position to hold off the the hellion build for example, it's not as clear cut as build stalkers and hold easy (I bring this up because we saw Stats just die to hellions multiple games and he was opening stalkers into blink > 3 gates > robo every single game). I've seen many games recently and IMO, they all show a lot of terran early game strength. If Protoss gets to mid-game, yeah the matchup is pretty messed up, I completely agree. I guess my intended point is that Blizzard needs to direct their attention to the later part of TvP, rather than the early game (e.g. I think looking at stalker upgrades would be more beneficial than looking at nerving Stalker's base stats, although potentially those could be toned down as well). That guy was trying to vouch for ridiculous buffs to the Terran early game that would make the matchup a complete mess and goes against the gameplay of most pro games in recent weeks. I think the oracle and shield battery nerf actually made quite the difference in balancing out the TvP early game a lot more.
TvP needs tweaking. It does not need movable bunkers, cyclones with hellion speed or reapers as fast as zerglings that can shoot air (yes he actually suggested all of those).
On the reaper note, have you seen the gumiho game? I think it has potential and is unexplored although I won't vouch for it being a super safe, every-game build. I do think proxy reaper builds are really strong right now though, I've faced a lot of GMs on the ladder doing multiple rax reaper and it can be brutal (uThermal beat Showtime with it the other day too)
As a Protoss player, you sound pretty unqualified to offer suggestions about reliable Terran openings. Look man, Reapers and Hellions are bad against about 80% of Protoss units. You're just not considering how the game will shake out if a Terran takes a big tech risk and it fails. It's near game ending if you build 6 reapers and they get killed for nothing, and even if they survive they aren't useful in your army or as a harass unit later in the game. Comparing the general utility of 6 reapers or 6 hellions vs. 3-5 stalkers at the time these units come out in PvT is laughable.
I had two points, that Terran needs reliable harass and flexibility in offense/defense for openers. You seem to think Terran has both, and you're wrong.
I appreciate what you said about the mid game, that TvP gets worse then. But I am operating under the assumption that the early game is the problem because that's been the case in general at many times in the past in TvP. The Protoss has to turtle until he gets the tech up that can allow him to go do some work. Now Protoss can choose a Gateway army, tech, or macro, and Terran has to play defensively leaving all this open. It's bad design. This is why I offered many (some very random) design suggestions. And you're sitting there in your computer chair telling all the Terrans to build Reapers and Hellions in TvP.
I don't know that simply buffing Marauders is the answer. It seems to be a zero sum game with the Marauder-Stalker relationship. In Wings of Liberty Marauders absolutely wrecked stalkers. As soon as the Terran got concussive shell it was over. I think there can be more of a risk vs. reward relationship than that, so I'd like more creative options than to just buff the marauder. I really don't want to find myself in a month seeing forums filled with complaints about how Stalkers are obsolete because Marauders in equal numbers make them worthless.
On December 15 2017 06:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: I have no input about TvZ but I do think you are slightly off the mark in regards to TvP. TvP has evolved a lot in the last couple weeks and I actually think Terran has a lot of strength in the early game right now. Hellions, Reapers and Cyclones are all quite good in different ways (particular the former two, although Cyclones are actually so good against aggressive Protoss openings). Hellions run-bys are seriously hard to deal with right now when coupled with a drop in the main, and when it first started getting popular, it literally just killed 90% of Protoss players. Now that it's become more of a meta-standard, it's not quite as brutal but it still puts a lot of pressure on the Protoss player to defend well (Stats for example, really struggled against Gumiho). Multiple reapers is good again with the removal of Photon overcharge and there's a variety of builds such as 2 rax reaper into a macro game, or more aggressive proxy reaper openings. Cyclones have always been good in the very early game, and there are some cool builds popping up like Marauder/Cyclone, which seems pretty good (TY showcased this). Protoss has great map control once blink finishes, but before that it's actually quite a scary game atm with a bunch of aggressive options for terran. A lot of the very aggressive Protoss openers that were killing Terrans a lot when the patch first hit don't match up that well against the openings I just mentioned (the exception being the hellion one but having a factory early allows you to change it up and rush out a Cyclone).
I cannot actually say whether I agree with you, or not. I think you are not looking at the big picture and therefore don't see a lot of what's important. Yes, T strength in TvP increased a lot ever since Oracles stopped being a free win, but the match up is still stupid af. The main reason is the insane utility of the Stalker. Everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with Stalkers, even while expanding. The only exception is a massive commitment to Cyclone aggression. In this case Stalkers can (only) hold off the Cyclones cost efficiently, until Immortals are out. This makes a Stalker opening a no brainer. Still, it is even more annoying that Stalkers continue to be insanely good and efficient and it is never a bad idea to continue massing them.
Ironically, even though I am a T player, and TvP is my worst matchup by far, I was never in favor of the propsed Stalker changes. I'd prefer nerfs that *eventually* make it a bad idea to keep massing Stalkers, or at least create a big window where Stalkers are (a lot) weaker. Make them profit less from upgrades, make Blink require a templar archive, or even a robotics bay. Maybe even remove Blink altogether, I don't know, but there need to be way more situations where building other units is the better option for the P player.
Just one note: opening 2rax reapers is not a good idea in TvP because it will delay your expansion and or tech so much, that you need to do exceptional damage just to keep up with the macro of a fast expanding P, which they still do very commonly. I think 2 rax reaper in TvP can not be more than a gimmick that works occasionally.
I was making a point about that specific point he was making about TvP early game which personally I didn't find too accurate. I am completely on board with the fact that TvP is really hard and needs changes. However, some of my thoughts:
I don't agree that everything T can do early game is efficiently fought off with stalkers. Yes, they have the potential to hold off most of the stuff, which is why it's such a good opening atm. But you still need really good position to hold off the the hellion build for example, it's not as clear cut as build stalkers and hold easy (I bring this up because we saw Stats just die to hellions multiple games and he was opening stalkers into blink > 3 gates > robo every single game). I've seen many games recently and IMO, they all show a lot of terran early game strength. If Protoss gets to mid-game, yeah the matchup is pretty messed up, I completely agree. I guess my intended point is that Blizzard needs to direct their attention to the later part of TvP, rather than the early game (e.g. I think looking at stalker upgrades would be more beneficial than looking at nerving Stalker's base stats, although potentially those could be toned down as well). That guy was trying to vouch for ridiculous buffs to the Terran early game that would make the matchup a complete mess and goes against the gameplay of most pro games in recent weeks. I think the oracle and shield battery nerf actually made quite the difference in balancing out the TvP early game a lot more.
TvP needs tweaking. It does not need movable bunkers, cyclones with hellion speed or reapers as fast as zerglings that can shoot air (yes he actually suggested all of those).
On the reaper note, have you seen the gumiho game? I think it has potential and is unexplored although I won't vouch for it being a super safe, every-game build. I do think proxy reaper builds are really strong right now though, I've faced a lot of GMs on the ladder doing multiple rax reaper and it can be brutal (uThermal beat Showtime with it the other day too)
As a Protoss player, you sound pretty unqualified to offer suggestions about reliable Terran openings. Look man, Reapers and Hellions are bad against about 80% of Protoss units. You're just not considering how the game will shake out if a Terran takes a big tech risk and it fails. It's near game ending if you build 6 reapers and they get killed for nothing, and even if they survive they aren't useful in your army or as a harass unit later in the game. Comparing the general utility of 6 reapers or 6 hellions vs. 3-5 stalkers at the time these units come out in PvT is laughable.
I had two points, that Terran needs reliable harass and flexibility in offense/defense for openers. You seem to think Terran has both, and you're wrong.
I appreciate what you said about the mid game, that TvP gets worse then. But I am operating under the assumption that the early game is the problem because that's been the case in general at many times in the past in TvP. The Protoss has to turtle until he gets the tech up that can allow him to go do some work. Now Protoss can choose a Gateway army, tech, or macro, and Terran has to play defensively leaving all this open. It's bad design. This is why I offered many (some very random) design suggestions. And you're sitting there in your computer chair telling all the Terrans to build Reapers and Hellions in TvP.
I don't know that simply buffing Marauders is the answer. It seems to be a zero sum game with the Marauder-Stalker relationship. In Wings of Liberty Marauders absolutely wrecked stalkers. As soon as the Terran got concussive shell it was over. I think there can be more of a risk vs. reward relationship than that, so I'd like more creative options than to just buff the marauder. I really don't want to find myself in a month seeing forums filled with complaints about how Stalkers are obsolete because Marauders in equal numbers make them worthless.
Everything is ultimately a zero-sum game, there can only be one winner and one loser. One race being stronger means the other two are weaker, in some fashion, by definition.
As far as Stalkers go, I think it's a bigger issue of Protoss design rather than any particular numbers. Warpgate means that either Protoss must have weak gateway units or the race is just outright broken. Combine that with stronger tech units, and voila, deathballs.
So the end result, when properly balanced, is a gimmicky race heavily dependent on turtling and tech units. And that's a design flaw if there ever was one. It's not impossible to balance, of course, but tweaking the numbers will only bring temporary relief as long as the design remains this way.
In a way, yes, a positive for one race is always something of a negative to others. But for years the Marauder has been the primary Terran response to Stalkers. This is mostly because, as I've already said, all the other Barracks units are pretty bad vs. Stalkers. Right now, I don't think Marauders are terribly bad vs. stalkers, nor do I think they're terribly good. I could go either way on a buff to Marauders, but I will say that I think they should be really good vs. some Gateway unit. Either that or their zone-controlling ability through concussive shell could have some sort of small splash upgrade.
As to your point, I think some sort of deterrent to warp gate could be in order, and this might be a good time to try it. To my knowledge this has never been tried, but having warpgate units warp in with say 20 shields already damaged or with a 5 second slow would be a small deterrent for massing gateway units in your opponents face. The shields down is comparable to the stim effect, and would not affect something like Adept backstabs as much as it would reinforcing units. All in all, I think the effect would be that a lot of Protosses would warp in their units at home and have them walk across the map to attack as that would be about the time needed for the shields to regenerate.
On December 18 2017 07:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote: In a way, yes, a positive for one race is always something of a negative to others. But for years the Marauder has been the primary Terran response to Stalkers. This is mostly because, as I've already said, all the other Barracks units are pretty bad vs. Stalkers. Right now, I don't think Marauders are terribly bad vs. stalkers, nor do I think they're terribly good. I could go either way on a buff vs. Marauders, but I will say that I think they should be really good vs. some Gateway unit. Either that or their zone-controlling ability through concussive shell could have some sort of small splash upgrade.
As to your point, I think some sort of deterrent to warp gate could be in order, and this might be a good time to try it. To my knowledge this has never been tried, but having warpgate units warp in with say 20 shields already damaged or with a 5 second slow would be a small deterrent for massing gateway units in your opponents face. The shields down is comparable to the stim effect, and would not affect something like Adept backstabs as much as it would reinforcing units. All in all, I think the effect would be that a lot of Protosses would warp in their units at home and have them walk across the map to attack as that would be about the time needed for the shields to regenerate.
That cripples defensive warp-ins way more than offensive warp-ins.
On December 18 2017 05:07 youngjiddle wrote: aligulac PvT is at 54% now btw without the chrono and disrupter nerf in the game yet.
That is a 10% difference from the norm, so people are upset about it.
Yeah. If PvT was at a 46% win rate, Terran players would be advocating patience and letting the meta settle like they always do. They'd also be in full force complaining about Zerg.
On December 15 2017 06:23 Ransomstarcraft wrote: D. Give the new Ghost, or an upgraded Reaper the ability to plant a bomb that would destroy or dramatically damage an opponent's tech building so that the explosion followed by a Reaper attack could flip the game on its side or something.
Can we please refer to this as "the Tanja upgrade"?
do you mean this Tanya? I remember when the game devolved into Tanya drops and they had to slow down how quickly she falls out of airplanes.
I think Tanya could run from building to building blowing them up 1 by 1. in the proposed terran change I think the Ghost or Reaper would just have 1 bomb and couldn't move from building to building decimating an entire base.
On December 15 2017 06:23 Ransomstarcraft wrote: D. Give the new Ghost, or an upgraded Reaper the ability to plant a bomb that would destroy or dramatically damage an opponent's tech building so that the explosion followed by a Reaper attack could flip the game on its side or something.
Can we please refer to this as "the Tanja upgrade"?
I remember when the game devolved into Tanya drops and they had to slow down how quickly she falls out of airplanes.
I think Tanya could run from building to building blowing them up 1 by 1. in the proposed Terran change I think the Ghost or Reaper would just have 1 bomb and couldn't move from building to building decimating an entire base.
I remember that Tanya was insane if you built your base to clustered there was no way to stop her from chain killing clumps of buildings if she got inside. I never thought it was to op though because you could kill the plane/transport if you had enough units in place. Terror drones also could do work against her if you could catch her outside the building. Man I loved RA3. Brings back memories.
There were alot of things in ra3 that were way more busted though. I remember when pks increased dmg the closer they were to thier target applied to buildings and every allied player would just rush you with their mcv and proxied raxes since if pks got in range of your buildings they would melt in seconds. I also remember when mecha tengu explosions did not have reduced dmg to other mecha tengu and empire vs empire felt like zvz with flying banelings that could also land like vikings and kill all your stuff. Also the wall bug that let turret rushing soviets build walls over your guys trapping them inside the bricks.....
On December 18 2017 09:25 Ransomstarcraft wrote: But with defensive warp-ins, you could have shield batteries in place. This is a similar relationship to stim plus medivacs.
It's not like you cannot build offensive shield battery with this. In the end we would return to 4gate vs 4gate time.
Haha kind of a random suggestion but a lot of people seem to want old marauder back and while I do too, I just don't think blizzard will give it back to us. However; I think it can still be buffed in another way. Perhaps adding a buff to concussive shells or a new upgrade in where Marauders don't gain damage but; they ignore 1 point of armor. I think this change helps out the mid game and late game allowing the marauder to scale a bit better than it does now while leaving it normal in the early game where something like proxy marauder could be more powerful (Which would be cancer)
I wonder if the chronoboost stuff was truly the underlying reason of protoss being so dominant against terran. It could be that it's not really the fact that protoss could cheese really succesfully alone, but the fact that terran just couldn't actually do anything to protoss with the new stalkers and that protoss lategame is just not beatable realistically. So while removing the fear of all ins and the hyper quick upgrades, I'm not sure if it balances the standard vs standard play which also seems imbalanced.
It's actually a really shitty state for terran that you're at such a big disadvantage in the lategame, not only against toss but also against zerg (in particular if you're going bio). I'd be so happy if I could also play macro games. Atm I'm stuck doing 1 base all ins against protoss at least because the lategame is unwinnable for me
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/OIhBg8D.jpg)
