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LTCM
174 Posts
Pros are great at the game but are almost universally biased. Scarlett spent most of last year telling us PvZ was toss favored....and we all know how that turned out. Our best reference for balance so far is korean qualifiers for wesg. Can someone remind me of those results? | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On December 15 2017 13:27 Major wrote: you are enlitlted to your opinion just like i am. they are not listening to the community. unlike you this is my job. i play all day watch all tournaments talk to most pros. and when all terran and protoss agree that stalker is too strong and should be nerfed or buff something that is relevant from terran side. and they go ahead and undo the main change because they were listening the community according to you. than yes something is clearly wrong. when is last time you say a protoss say really they didnt nerf stalker? that was the main nerf others buffs / nerfs are not that meaninfull. or last time u said even after the stlaker patch was gonna go trough. yea i think pvt is imba and it will probably still be protoss favored after the nerf thats even if stalker nerf went trough. why? because they over compensated for removal of 1 unit that wasnt that vital in the matchup already last patch. so yes its a terrible patch and again its my opinion you can have yours. but i like to think my opinion is alot more educated than you. The fact that it's your job is exactly why you should check yourself for bias. They are listening to the community, the previous thread had more people say they were against the Stalker being changed than for, I was actually one of the few who said that I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't see your post in that thread stating that you thought it was a good change/important to go through, did you contact the balance team another way to make sure your opinion was heard? Of course you're entitled to your opinion, I'm not having a go at you for having an opinion, I am having a go at you for your way of expressing it. It's unconvincing and unprofessional. The balance team is making an effort to listen to the community, so if you disagree with their direction, make your case in an educated way. Edit: I just had a look at your twitter and I see you did email the balance team, that's good, assuming you used more tact than your first post here. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On December 15 2017 06:57 ZigguratOfUr wrote: They're really really strong. There's a ton of variation in ling drops (8 ling drop, 16 ling drop with ling flood, 3 baneling 2 ling drops, ling flood with queen drops), and many of them can cripple or kill Protoss outright as well as delay when Protoss can take a third. They also severely restrict Protoss openings, since there's only one or two Protoss openings that don't die to ling drops if scouted. There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works. I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless. | ||
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engesser1
264 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 15 2017 14:44 hiroshOne wrote: There are only 2 Zerg openings that don't die from mass adepts and there's one that not dies to Archon/Warprism. Nerf Adepts, Warprism, Archons. Now u see how your logic works. I'm pretty much concerned about "future changes" part of this feedback. Seems like with overall protoss buffs in 4.0 and Terran buffs for mech, now they wanna buff BIO and still nerf Zerg (overlord drops). When i read all those (revert hydra buff) with mutas being obsolete in both matchups...Well hope they won't make mistakes like in late HOTS when playing Zerg was pointless. Fact is that protosses at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by ling drops, whereas mass adepts is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double archon drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Protoss. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
I honestly don't mind the faster build time, but I'd like to see the Widow Mine's splash reduced to a flat 35 (so that it no longer 1-shots workers by default) and have a larger +shields component enter as a mid-to-late game upgrade. In exchange, bring back cloaked burrow after firing, and instead of quicker burrow time with Drilling Claws (this has always felt problematic to me), give it an upgrade to boost its manual target range by 1. The role of this unit is misunderstood. It is not exactly a "mine", strictly speaking. It's a small, mobile artillery unit. Essentially, it's a mortar, and it should be analyzed and balanced with that philosophy in mind. The Oracle needs to not wipe out workers as fast as it does in the early game, but its ability to clear out a mineral line late game is not really a problem. I think they were onto something when they changed Pulsar Beam to attack damage, rather than spell damage. Drop the attack down to 12 +6 light, and let it benefit from 2 +1 light air attack upgrades, and I think we manage to avoid the most miserable parts of the Oracle while still preserving its late game flexibility. That having been said, with a weaker attack out of the gate, it is possible that it might need a range increase to compensate and to afford it options against turret placement. I also think they might have nerfed Stasis Ward a little bit too hard, but I think it's too early to pass firm judgment on that. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 15 2017 15:02 engesser1 wrote: Scarlett and Major, they are right. You should start listening to them asap. 1 month, 3 patches, primier tours are coming up. Pay attention only to the state of progamers and listen to them. And stop saying "I", rethink restrategies for scene and pros. Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker. None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 15 2017 16:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker. None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda. Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here. That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that..... | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On December 15 2017 15:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Fact is that protosses at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by ling drops, whereas mass adepts is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double archon drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Protoss. Fact is that Zergs at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by archon drops, or mass adepts whereas zergling/baneling/queen drops is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double Zergling drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Zerg. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 15 2017 16:16 hiroshOne wrote: Fact is that Zergs at the highest level routinely die or are crippled by archon drops, or mass adepts whereas zergling/baneling/queen drops is an all-in that isn't terribly common nowadays, and double Zergling drops while still a decent build very rarely obtain game winning advantages for the Zerg. Instead of being a mindless parrot you should watch some more Starcraft. I'd recommend: On December 15 2017 16:12 pvsnp wrote: Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here. That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that..... Oh yeah by all means. But I'm guessing these Korean Protosses aren't exactly being vocal to Blizzard about the necessity of nerfing the stalker. Take for example MajOr's opinion about the patch 3.10.1 liberator nerf when Protoss was in a similar position that Terran is now: On January 24 2017 09:07 Major wrote: this is terrible. blizzard dont even follow their own game its kinda sad. without liberators being broken as they were. u simply cannot win fights since the marauder got nerfed so heavely at start of lotv. really what makes tvp strong early game is fact u can do a timing push 2-3 tank bio and its hard for protoss to stop but now days it isnt even that hard to stop protoss started to figure this out and stop dieing to it. so nerfing liberator is completly pointless. my solution woulda been this nerf tank damage by some porcetange and in the same patch u nerf ravager so tank can deal with them still somewhat good, since u cant pick up em anymore. sometimes i wonder if blizzard even listen to ppl that play their game or they just randomly make things up. so sad i wanna see terran win tvp fights with libs being bad in fights not 1 shotting templars / sentry and 3shotting stalker is huge. right now all fights center aboiut terran hopefully killing all stalkers so they dont get run over by just how much worse bio got since maruader split damage | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On December 15 2017 16:12 pvsnp wrote: Of course the pros have an agenda, it's their livelihood on the line here. That being said, if Korean Protoss pros also agree with Major about the Stalker, I'd say the case for nerfing them doesn't get any stronger than that..... Or you keep them as they are and look at potential Terran units to buff to help deal with them. I like stalkers being good. After tanks got buffed they were mostly garbage. They're fun units to use and require good control and mechanics to realize their full strength. From a design perspective they're more interesting than ever before. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 15 2017 16:38 Olli wrote: Or you keep them as they are and look at potential Terran units to buff to help deal with them. I like stalkers being good. After tanks got buffed they were mostly garbage. They're fun units to use and require good control and mechanics to realize their full strength. From a design perspective they're more interesting than ever before. I mean sure, but that is still a (indirect) nerf to Stalkers, no? Oh yeah by all means. But I'm guessing these Korean Protosses aren't exactly being vocal to Blizzard about the necessity of nerfing the stalker. Take for example MajOr's opinion about the patch 3.10.1 liberator nerf when Protoss was in a similar position that Terran is now: Major is well-known for being biased and vocal about it. Which is why I said that it's the opinion of the Protoss pros that tips the scale. Presumably those Protoss players are not idiots and are looking out for themselves by keeping their mouths shut, so as to cash in as much as possible on imbalance in their favor. It's one thing to privately agree with Major that P > T, and quite another to mention it to Blizzard. We can hardly blame pros for behaving rationally (and thus dishonestly). | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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engesser1
264 Posts
On December 15 2017 16:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Blizzard would act more on the advice of progamers if they weren't so clearly biased and angling for buffs. For example MajOr initially said that TvP was broken citing the 3 minute oracle as an example of something that was imba. The oracle gets nerfed, and then MajOr changes his tune. He says that the fast oracle wasn't that big a deal at all, that he was good at dealing with it, and that the biggest problem with PvT is how Protoss uses the new chrono to get insanely fast upgrades. Chrono gets nerfed, and he doesn't even acknowledge how it might change the state of the match-up and instead goes to the next item on his list of problems with PvT, the stalker. None of the points he's making are incorrect, but he isn't being candid and he has an agenda. And he was right, actually... He was right then, and he is right now. You should show him how to play in TvP. What he says always corresponds with what he does, what about you? Pretty sure your words are equal in game. Really walk it like they talk it, huh. And it seems there is no understanding at all. Without them, there will be no scene. Accordingly, you will have nothing to comment or explain us that someone is "bias". | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On December 15 2017 14:30 Myrddraal wrote: The fact that it's your job is exactly why you should check yourself for bias. They are listening to the community, the previous thread had more people say they were against the Stalker being changed than for, I was actually one of the few who said that I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't see your post in that thread stating that you thought it was a good change/important to go through, did you contact the balance team another way to make sure your opinion was heard? Of course you're entitled to your opinion, I'm not having a go at you for having an opinion, I am having a go at you for your way of expressing it. It's unconvincing and unprofessional. The balance team is making an effort to listen to the community, so if you disagree with their direction, make your case in an educated way. Edit: I just had a look at your twitter and I see you did email the balance team, that's good, assuming you used more tact than your first post here. I was one of the people that didn't like the stalker change but terran needs help in TvP. Just reverting the stalker nerf and giving terran nothing in return will just prolong the imbalance they were about to fix so I understand the frustration. They should make widow mines cloaked again and nerf the collossus and maybe revert the marauder nerf. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Now give old marauder back. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 15 2017 17:55 hiroshOne wrote: If they bring back old marauder it wilk snowball on TvZ. They would have to revert ultra nerf as well. Nobody wants to go back to bio wrecking ultras like they were lings. Especially with Infestors nerfed to the ground. Ultralisks still have more armor than they did in HotS, and bio isn't too well positioned in TvZ currently, so I doubt bringing back the old marauder will break TvZ (though admittedly ghost snipe is better now). Besides that's a bridge that should be crossed if it happens. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 15 2017 18:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Ultralisks still have more armor than they did in HotS, and bio isn't too well positioned in TvZ currently, so I doubt bringing back the old marauder will break TvZ (though admittedly ghost snipe is better now). Besides that's a bridge that should be crossed if it happens. Yeah, with all that's been changed in LotV a single-shot marauder will not have anywhere close to gamebreaking effects. I think it's a great idea, personally. Bio is kind of just trash right now, fortunately the balance team is keeping an eye on it. If they really, really wanted to get people to go bio again, I guess they could buff marines. But that would probably cause more problems than it would fix. | ||
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