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If you have a certain number of vikings or thors and go up against Protoss air, is it better to add some Ravens or to continue to add vikings/thors?
In order to figure out this me and a friend tested this in the unit tester several times against each other. We swapped who controlled which army so that difference in micro skill would even out. We then averaged the results.
No upgrades were used except the one that makes interceptors launch faster. When using the Thors we always had the Thors in single target mode except when using the anti-armor missile. In that case we used the Thor splash mode initially and then switched over to single targets once the Carriers were too spread out. We always targeted the Carriers and not the interceptors since targeting the interceptors produced really bad results (almost no Carriers were lost in those cases).
Result
10 Tempest vs 15 Viking = 4 Tempest
10 Tempest vs 19 Viking = 9 Viking
10 Tempest vs 15 Viking + 2 Ravens using Interference Matrix = 3 Vikings
10 Tempest vs 15 Viking + 2 Ravens using 2 Anti-armor missiles = 4 Vikings
10 Carriers vs 26 Vikings = 6 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 26 Vikings + 3 Ravens casting anti-armor missiles = 6 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 26 Viking + 3 Ravens casting interference missiles = 5 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors = 3 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 12 Thors = 6 Thors
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors + 3 Ravens using interference missiles = 3 Thors
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors + 3 Ravens using healing drones = 3 Thors
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors + 3 Ravens using anti-armor = 5 Thors
Conclusion
When going up against Protoss air it is better to add even more vikings/thors compared to adding some Ravens. Using Ravens abilities add less to the result of the battle than what we initially thought.
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i'm glad to see a ground unit is more useful in combating mass air armies.
thx for this research.
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10 Tempest vs 15 Viking = 4 Tempest
10 Tempest vs 19 Viking = 9 Viking
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors = 3 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 12 Thors = 6 Thors
So a such massive difference when you add 4 vikings or 2 thors... very very bad design.
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Nice analysis here, thank you for sharing this. As someone who has recently started playing again, this helps me a lot. Cheers
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10 siege tanks vs 15 swarmhosts = 15 swarmhosts.
Just putting some salt on mecher's eyes.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Testing things this way can be interesting, but what's most important is the rest of the composition.
19 vikings may beat 10 tempest, however 25 vikings won't beat 8 tempests and 3 full energy templars.
Same thing with ravens, they may get completely negated by feedback.
At the end of the day what's to consider is that there is no counter to skytoss/HT past a certain point : with the raven change and the previous tempest buff vs massive, skytoss will always mech unplayable in TvP
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I find that going any sort of terran ground anti-air vs carrier tempest will just result in a massacre for the terran. Thors are too slow, with shit pathfinding, get murdered by zealots (make hellbats you say? = weaker anti-carrier composition, which is what really matters) and bug out often.
I just yolo into BCs, get those upgrades especially armor ASAP, few ravens for the scrambler missile and vikings for the tempests and hope for the best.
I find the the protoss army and I am good to go:
I teleport all my BC on the army (spreads out BCs, closes the distances, makes me spam yamato easier, if he is shit then he cant actually select his high templars because he cant see them, no joke, this happens often)
Bring in the ravens, hit the carriers with scramblers.
Oh and I hope for the best the entire time because the shit you have to do to take such an army down is definitely not what the protoss has to do to take down my army.
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On November 26 2017 07:49 Psychobabas wrote:
I find that going any sort of terran ground anti-air vs carrier tempest will just result in a massacre for the terran. Thors are too slow, with shit pathfinding, get murdered by zealots (make hellbats you say? = weaker anti-carrier composition, which is what really matters) and bug out often.
I just yolo into BCs, get those upgrades especially armor ASAP, few ravens for the scrambler missile and vikings for the tempests and hope for the best.
Battlecruiser-centric compositions do beat skytoss, since it's so easy to pick things off and teleport out. At the pro level the transition into BCs is so difficult that you just get killed trying to get there, but if you get there Terran is pretty favoured.
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On November 26 2017 07:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2017 07:49 Psychobabas wrote:
I find that going any sort of terran ground anti-air vs carrier tempest will just result in a massacre for the terran. Thors are too slow, with shit pathfinding, get murdered by zealots (make hellbats you say? = weaker anti-carrier composition, which is what really matters) and bug out often.
I just yolo into BCs, get those upgrades especially armor ASAP, few ravens for the scrambler missile and vikings for the tempests and hope for the best. Battlecruiser-centric compositions do beat skytoss, since it's so easy to pick things off and teleport out. At the pro level the transition into BCs is so difficult that you just get killed trying to get there, but if you get there Terran is pretty favoured.
I disagree that Terran is favoured in such a position. If he has any braincells he will pick off the BCs with Tempests like flies. Yeah you will kill some carriers and tempests doing that and teleport SOME of your BC back. But you will for sure lose a lot of stuff doing that. I am not even mentioning oracles tagging the army. Thank god I dont see it too often. No, I believe the best thing is send everything with teleport directly on the protoss army, timing it with raven scramblers and shift-clicking the vikings on the tempests.
Now if the protoss went full retard and only went carriers then yeah, he deserves the loss, but having 10 tempests with the rest of the army supply in carriers and few high templars for the vikings is so hard to fight.
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On November 26 2017 05:32 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +10 Tempest vs 15 Viking = 4 Tempest
10 Tempest vs 19 Viking = 9 Viking
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors = 3 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 12 Thors = 6 Thors
So a such massive difference when you add 4 vikings or 2 thors... very very bad design.
No, it's nice.
It's how starcraft works
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What are the new Ravens useful for anyway? I see their worth outside of battle for healing but not much else.
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On November 26 2017 08:05 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2017 07:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 26 2017 07:49 Psychobabas wrote:
I find that going any sort of terran ground anti-air vs carrier tempest will just result in a massacre for the terran. Thors are too slow, with shit pathfinding, get murdered by zealots (make hellbats you say? = weaker anti-carrier composition, which is what really matters) and bug out often.
I just yolo into BCs, get those upgrades especially armor ASAP, few ravens for the scrambler missile and vikings for the tempests and hope for the best. Battlecruiser-centric compositions do beat skytoss, since it's so easy to pick things off and teleport out. At the pro level the transition into BCs is so difficult that you just get killed trying to get there, but if you get there Terran is pretty favoured. I disagree that Terran is favoured in such a position. If he has any braincells he will pick off the BCs with Tempests like flies. Yeah you will kill some carriers and tempests doing that and teleport SOME of your BC back. But you will for sure lose a lot of stuff doing that. I am not even mentioning oracles tagging the army. Thank god I dont see it too often. No, I believe the best thing is send everything with teleport directly on the protoss army, timing it with raven scramblers and shift-clicking the vikings on the tempests. Now if the protoss went full retard and only went carriers then yeah, he deserves the loss, but having 10 tempests with the rest of the army supply in carriers and few high templars for the vikings is so hard to fight.
Tempests can only defend so much. If they keep the entire army together they lose bases and workers for free. If they split things up you can jump on the smaller segment of the army. Terran should always win the base trade if it happens. Tempests should never be able to pick off the BCs if Terran stays aware of where Protoss is and isn't too aggressive with the teleports. Protoss does have some counterplay with harass and stuff and using the main army to judiciously pick off forward bases, so it isn't a free win, but from the few high level games that actually reach that stage I'd consider Terran significantly favoured at that point in the game if both players do everything right.
On November 26 2017 08:59 Weavel wrote:
What are the new Ravens useful for anyway? I see their worth outside of battle for healing but not much else.
They have some utility in TvT--they can halt doom drops and disable tanks in key engagements.
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On November 26 2017 05:32 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +10 Tempest vs 15 Viking = 4 Tempest
10 Tempest vs 19 Viking = 9 Viking
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors = 3 Carriers
10 Carriers vs 12 Thors = 6 Thors
So a such massive difference when you add 4 vikings or 2 thors... very very bad design.
SCBW:
13 Dragoons vs 12 Dragoons = 5 Dragoons
100 Dragoons vs 99 Dragoons = 14 Dragoons
Snowballing happens in every game, 1 more unit can decide a massive battle... not a design problem imo
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My carriers were destroyed by a couple of vikings and 3 ravens, each of them using Interference Matrix and Anti-Armor Missile. Without good spliting the golden armada is ravaged.
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I like the new Raven. I think it's pretty balanced at this moment as a support spell caster. Cyclones + Anti Armor Missle in early game timings, Repair Drones for unit efficiancy, and Interference Matrix on Immortals makes the unit pretty sick.
This is just my opinion though that Feedback from HT makes me feel sad. I understand that Protoss need to combat Spellcasters, I just hate how easy it is to feedback stuff. It just seems like it's never a good idea to build spellcasters against Protoss unless you have so many of them that Protoss can't possible feedback them all.
If Feedback was a some kind of skill shot I think Feedback would be better. Even give it a small AOE to punish players who clump their spell casters. I think this would also help aliviate the mass infestor issue Late game PvZ a little bit, and just a nerf to mass clumped spellcasters vs P in general. Just my opinion. I'm just a noob 
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Snipe requires a 1.6 sec cast and was interruptible. Perhaps feedback requires it to be casted. The problem is the HT’s abilities are spammable and was instant with a large AOE. The Ravens shredder would be nice if it was cast able like storm on a specific area instead of a unit.
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what about testing the raven with marines (or even cyclones)? they benefit the most from the armor reduction since they fire so quickly.
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On November 26 2017 15:01 GinDo wrote:
I like the new Raven. I think it's pretty balanced at this moment as a support spell caster.
i think its impossible to say at this stage if it is balanced. However, i 100% agree with the philosophies behind the changes to the Raven.
I like Terran having less offensive options in the Air.
DISCLAIMER: i am a terran player.
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I like the idea of the new raven, but it is not useful (except in TvT). feels like there is always a better option than making a raven... any unit that can attack is preferred.
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@OP: it's unclear in your testing how much energy the Ravens had. It seems strange to think that two full energy Ravens with all those Matrixes would end up being so marginal in the fight: completely disabling for 6 seconds 8 of 10 Tempests would seem like a powerful trick. Just making sure that this is actually what you tested.
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EPT
