• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:11
CEST 17:11
KST 00:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20258Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced24BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 744 users

Community Feedback Update - November 17 - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
333 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 17 Next All
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1106 Posts
November 18 2017 20:17 GMT
#121
On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:

1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it.


the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts.

literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about
Edowyth
Profile Joined October 2010
United States183 Posts
November 18 2017 20:36 GMT
#122
On November 18 2017 21:22 Musicus wrote:
Good change, but I agree with the others that said the chrono boost itself needs a change instead of Oracle build time.

50% boost over 20 seconds sounds perfect!


I'd much prefer this to the version that changes the energy cost. This keeps the macro-cycle similar to mules and queens.
"Q. How do I check a valid [e-]mail address? A. You can't, at least, not in real time. Bummer, eh?" /r/programming
Of course, you could just send them a validation email.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
November 18 2017 21:37 GMT
#123
On November 19 2017 02:17 Boggyb wrote:
They REALLY need to have things fixed before WESG South Korean qualifiers.

This
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
QuinnTheEskimo
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Germany55 Posts
November 18 2017 21:40 GMT
#124
On November 19 2017 05:17 SHODAN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:

1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it.


the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts.

literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about


Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts either, so maybe looking at the pros does not yield a viable answer here.

The Thor drop is everything but a solid counter. It worked once during a tournament, but not at a second tournament. We even saw a few Swarm Host games during Blizzcon 2017 and they were neigh unstoppable. The one time they were defeated was was with hellion tank out on the map. So much for what the pros do.

It is virtually impossible to defend against Swarm Hosts and losing mines and PDDs certainly didn't improve that situation. But welcome back to SC2. Seems like you have been away for quite some time.
You've got to go apeshit. -- Day[9]
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
November 18 2017 21:54 GMT
#125
On November 19 2017 06:40 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2017 05:17 SHODAN wrote:
On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:

1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it.


the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts.

literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about


Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts either, so maybe looking at the pros does not yield a viable answer here.

The Thor drop is everything but a solid counter. It worked once during a tournament, but not at a second tournament. We even saw a few Swarm Host games during Blizzcon 2017 and they were neigh unstoppable. The one time they were defeated was was with hellion tank out on the map. So much for what the pros do.

It is virtually impossible to defend against Swarm Hosts and losing mines and PDDs certainly didn't improve that situation. But welcome back to SC2. Seems like you have been away for quite some time.

Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch?
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1106 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-18 22:06:50
November 18 2017 22:06 GMT
#126
On November 19 2017 06:40 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:

Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts


http://aligulac.com/players/44-GuMiho/
QuinnTheEskimo
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Germany55 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-18 22:53:30
November 18 2017 22:44 GMT
#127
On November 19 2017 07:06 SHODAN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2017 06:40 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:

Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts


http://aligulac.com/players/44-GuMiho/


Here we go again. Lets quote the site that specifically states that they only look at the games they want to look at and openly state that this is far from every game. Aligulac is meant to enable better predictions on how matches of two recoreded players will turn out. Quoting aligulac for anything else is just bad and arbitrary. And then, of course, implying that Gumiho's overall win loss rate is the same as his win loss rate in mech vs swarm host is probably among the most far fetched things ever stated on TL.
You've got to go apeshit. -- Day[9]
QuinnTheEskimo
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Germany55 Posts
November 18 2017 22:52 GMT
#128
On November 19 2017 06:54 Boggyb wrote:
Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch?


No, do you?
You've got to go apeshit. -- Day[9]
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States583 Posts
November 18 2017 22:59 GMT
#129
Lol never has a terran made ravens or widow mines vs. Swarmhost.

Don't fall for that noobs balance whine /baiting.
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
November 18 2017 23:04 GMT
#130
I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
November 18 2017 23:52 GMT
#131
On November 19 2017 07:52 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2017 06:54 Boggyb wrote:
Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch?


No, do you?

I'm not the one making the claim that nobody has any success against Swarmhosts.
penguinseatsocks
Profile Joined February 2014
United States15 Posts
November 18 2017 23:56 GMT
#132
However, it seems the Infestor is currently further in this direction than we would like. We believe that Fungal Growth is the prime reason for its strength and we want to increase counterattack options to the currently stealthy Infestors first before heavily nerfing its direct power. So we are going to reduce the Fungal Growth area of effect slightly and remove the ability to cast Fungal Growth while burrowed.


Uhh.. are they not "heavily nerfing it's direct power" already?
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 19 2017 01:21 GMT
#133
Well, I wasn't going to say anything here about the update, but holy cow after watching and playing a bunch yesterday and today I have so much to say that I won't even write half of it here.

I'm very worried about PvZ lategame for anyone outside of the very top of the ladder, especially if Infestors are being nerfed, and even then I bet they'll struggle. I have a hard time seeing a future where, at 15 Minerals and 6 seconds each, Interceptors are not an incredibly "feel bad" part of late game Protoss. They just don't get burned out fast enough when you're ahead on bases. And needing Vipers and Infestors and often Queens and Spores positioned well versus Carriers, Void Rays, Motherships that can recall constantly... It's stressful as a Zerg player, to say the least. I wonder how Protoss players feel about getting into that type of late game.

I still think Shield Batteries need to be changed so they aren't quite as strong against burst damage. I'm doubtful the +25 Mineral cost will change their use much since, to me, it only changes how much I think about putting down an extra two or three at my natural, not how many I'm going to put in front of my opponent's ramp with Stalkers, Void Rays, etc.

I kind of want Cyclones to get changed again, or reverted, or even replaced with a tweaked Warhound (crazy idea: + Show Spoiler +
let them produce from Orbital Commands and replace Mules or call down to upgrade an SCV for a limited time, keep Cyclone lock-on/haywire missiles, change standard attack to stronger melee and act as a defensive, anti-mechanical/ armored unit
) to make them more interesting, fun, interactive in some way. They've been in an odd spot for a while now and I want to see something else out of them.

Swarm Hosts, Ghosts, Collossi, Vikings and Ravens seem okay, but I've hardly seen any myself on this patch. It would be nice if someone had good videos or replays where they're used a lot in each matchup or in various stages of the game.

I like parts of the update, which is great, and I very much dislike other parts, and I feel the same about this patch. As much as I'm torn about about a few (mostly minor...ish) things, I think the team is keeping a good eye on things right now and I'm looking forward to the next patch.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
wUndertUnge
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1125 Posts
November 19 2017 01:30 GMT
#134
On November 19 2017 08:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O


What's your reasoning? I'm a zerg player, but my only reason is "fungal burrow is so cool!"
Clan: QQGC - wundertunge#1850
TL+ Member
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
November 19 2017 01:48 GMT
#135
On November 19 2017 10:30 wUndertUnge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2017 08:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O


What's your reasoning? I'm a zerg player, but my only reason is "fungal burrow is so cool!"


I for one am glad its gone, to many high level games of tvz were being decided by the surprise fungal corrosive bile combo, since Terran usually cant afford mobile detection when going bio and has to rely on scans it just created this very random element to the game, even the change that made it not root did little to alleviate the issue.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
November 19 2017 02:03 GMT
#136
Someone posted that the problem for removing borrow fungal is that infestors will be targeted before they even engage in battle (tanks and templar's feedback).

Big Red Dog!
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
November 19 2017 02:33 GMT
#137
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
178
Profile Joined November 2017
1 Post
November 19 2017 04:07 GMT
#138
"For design patches we like to lean on the side of making things powerful so that players can really feel the changes and then pull back from there."

So lets make the other terran units stronger then. MECH attack dps buffs, it seems toss got nerf via orcale but stalkers are strong. Zerg got a buff. we should remove and revamp the swarm host!

The terran ghost could really use a buff to make it more viable late game. the SC:RM ghost were great and not too costly. lockdown helped vs protoss and its dmg output was good verses zerg. The cost is what really kills ghosts so im glad its worked on. how about reducing the cost of armory gas amount
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-19 05:47:40
November 19 2017 05:44 GMT
#139
On November 19 2017 11:33 Loccstana wrote:
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins


tbh I'm not sure, tanks still do a ton of dmg to blink stalkers and the range helps with shield batteries. if terran can get 3+ tanks with a bit of support I don't think blink stalkers will crush through unless the map is really favorable for them.

I'd be much more worried about proxy robos
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
engesser1
Profile Blog Joined December 2016
264 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-19 06:56:11
November 19 2017 06:55 GMT
#140
They (Blizzard) should make balance contest/ test mode (with money prize) and add best in game.
Maru, he is the reason why i'm still playing and watching sc2
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 17 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Bracket Day 2 - Final
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Lambo vs GeraldLIVE!
Clem vs SKillous
Reynor vs TBD
RotterdaM1995
ComeBackTV 1633
IndyStarCraft 596
WardiTV359
CranKy Ducklings201
Rex157
3DClanTV 91
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1995
IndyStarCraft 596
Rex 157
BRAT_OK 66
MindelVK 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 46945
Barracks 1810
EffOrt 1416
Larva 1088
Stork 854
BeSt 628
firebathero 517
Nal_rA 383
Soulkey 254
Rush 153
[ Show more ]
Hyun 140
Dewaltoss 127
Sharp 92
sorry 58
Movie 57
sSak 56
Sea.KH 53
Shinee 50
Free 36
Shine 34
zelot 27
yabsab 21
Terrorterran 13
IntoTheRainbow 4
Dota 2
Gorgc5881
qojqva3792
XcaliburYe422
420jenkins315
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m2245
oskar192
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor567
Other Games
B2W.Neo1916
Beastyqt1700
Hui .316
DeMusliM235
Fuzer 158
KnowMe103
QueenE63
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV40
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 4
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 52
• poizon28 14
• Legendk 5
• Dystopia_ 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4134
• WagamamaTV729
League of Legends
• Nemesis3103
• Jankos1566
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2h 49m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
19h 49m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 18h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.