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On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it.
the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts.
literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about
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On November 18 2017 21:22 Musicus wrote:
Good change, but I agree with the others that said the chrono boost itself needs a change instead of Oracle build time.
50% boost over 20 seconds sounds perfect!
I'd much prefer this to the version that changes the energy cost. This keeps the macro-cycle similar to mules and queens.
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On November 19 2017 02:17 Boggyb wrote:
They REALLY need to have things fixed before WESG South Korean qualifiers.
This
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On November 19 2017 05:17 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it. the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts. literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about
Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts either, so maybe looking at the pros does not yield a viable answer here.
The Thor drop is everything but a solid counter. It worked once during a tournament, but not at a second tournament. We even saw a few Swarm Host games during Blizzcon 2017 and they were neigh unstoppable. The one time they were defeated was was with hellion tank out on the map. So much for what the pros do.
It is virtually impossible to defend against Swarm Hosts and losing mines and PDDs certainly didn't improve that situation. But welcome back to SC2. Seems like you have been away for quite some time.
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On November 19 2017 06:40 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 05:17 SHODAN wrote:On November 19 2017 03:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
1. SWARM HOSTS are more cancerous than they have ever been. Without reusable mines and PDDs there is no such thing as an efficient defense, let alone have an army left over to go after the, still beefy as fuck, units. The speed nerf is no help because mech T cannot afford to capitalise on it. the counter to swarm hosts is thor / hellbat / medivac. thors splash the locusts in the air, hellbats splash the locusts on the ground. you bait the locusts into landing prematurely with thor drops / hot pick-ups. if nothing else, it forces zerg to micro his locusts. literally no pro uses the widow mine / raven method you are talking about Literally no pro has a solid win rate with mech vs swarm hosts either, so maybe looking at the pros does not yield a viable answer here. The Thor drop is everything but a solid counter. It worked once during a tournament, but not at a second tournament. We even saw a few Swarm Host games during Blizzcon 2017 and they were neigh unstoppable. The one time they were defeated was was with hellion tank out on the map. So much for what the pros do. It is virtually impossible to defend against Swarm Hosts and losing mines and PDDs certainly didn't improve that situation. But welcome back to SC2. Seems like you have been away for quite some time.
Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch?
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Here we go again. Lets quote the site that specifically states that they only look at the games they want to look at and openly state that this is far from every game. Aligulac is meant to enable better predictions on how matches of two recoreded players will turn out. Quoting aligulac for anything else is just bad and arbitrary. And then, of course, implying that Gumiho's overall win loss rate is the same as his win loss rate in mech vs swarm host is probably among the most far fetched things ever stated on TL.
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On November 19 2017 06:54 Boggyb wrote:
Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch?
No, do you?
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Lol never has a terran made ravens or widow mines vs. Swarmhost.
Don't fall for that noobs balance whine /baiting.
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I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O
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On November 19 2017 07:52 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 06:54 Boggyb wrote:
Do you have any examples of pros playing mech vs. swarm hosts post patch? No, do you?
I'm not the one making the claim that nobody has any success against Swarmhosts.
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However, it seems the Infestor is currently further in this direction than we would like. We believe that Fungal Growth is the prime reason for its strength and we want to increase counterattack options to the currently stealthy Infestors first before heavily nerfing its direct power. So we are going to reduce the Fungal Growth area of effect slightly and remove the ability to cast Fungal Growth while burrowed.
Uhh.. are they not "heavily nerfing it's direct power" already?
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Well, I wasn't going to say anything here about the update, but holy cow after watching and playing a bunch yesterday and today I have so much to say that I won't even write half of it here.
I'm very worried about PvZ lategame for anyone outside of the very top of the ladder, especially if Infestors are being nerfed, and even then I bet they'll struggle. I have a hard time seeing a future where, at 15 Minerals and 6 seconds each, Interceptors are not an incredibly "feel bad" part of late game Protoss. They just don't get burned out fast enough when you're ahead on bases. And needing Vipers and Infestors and often Queens and Spores positioned well versus Carriers, Void Rays, Motherships that can recall constantly... It's stressful as a Zerg player, to say the least. I wonder how Protoss players feel about getting into that type of late game.
I still think Shield Batteries need to be changed so they aren't quite as strong against burst damage. I'm doubtful the +25 Mineral cost will change their use much since, to me, it only changes how much I think about putting down an extra two or three at my natural, not how many I'm going to put in front of my opponent's ramp with Stalkers, Void Rays, etc.
I kind of want Cyclones to get changed again, or reverted, or even replaced with a tweaked Warhound (crazy idea: + Show Spoiler +let them produce from Orbital Commands and replace Mules or call down to upgrade an SCV for a limited time, keep Cyclone lock-on/haywire missiles, change standard attack to stronger melee and act as a defensive, anti-mechanical/ armored unit
Swarm Hosts, Ghosts, Collossi, Vikings and Ravens seem okay, but I've hardly seen any myself on this patch. It would be nice if someone had good videos or replays where they're used a lot in each matchup or in various stages of the game.
I like parts of the update, which is great, and I very much dislike other parts, and I feel the same about this patch. As much as I'm torn about about a few (mostly minor...ish) things, I think the team is keeping a good eye on things right now and I'm looking forward to the next patch.
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On November 19 2017 08:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O
What's your reasoning? I'm a zerg player, but my only reason is "fungal burrow is so cool!"
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On November 19 2017 10:30 wUndertUnge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 08:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I'm not even a zerg player, but isn't this fungal nerf too much? o_O What's your reasoning? I'm a zerg player, but my only reason is "fungal burrow is so cool!"
I for one am glad its gone, to many high level games of tvz were being decided by the surprise fungal corrosive bile combo, since Terran usually cant afford mobile detection when going bio and has to rely on scans it just created this very random element to the game, even the change that made it not root did little to alleviate the issue.
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Someone posted that the problem for removing borrow fungal is that infestors will be targeted before they even engage in battle (tanks and templar's feedback).
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I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins
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"For design patches we like to lean on the side of making things powerful so that players can really feel the changes and then pull back from there."
So lets make the other terran units stronger then. MECH attack dps buffs, it seems toss got nerf via orcale but stalkers are strong. Zerg got a buff. we should remove and revamp the swarm host!
The terran ghost could really use a buff to make it more viable late game. the SC:RM ghost were great and not too costly. lockdown helped vs protoss and its dmg output was good verses zerg. The cost is what really kills ghosts so im glad its worked on. how about reducing the cost of armory gas amount
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On November 19 2017 11:33 Loccstana wrote:
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins
tbh I'm not sure, tanks still do a ton of dmg to blink stalkers and the range helps with shield batteries. if terran can get 3+ tanks with a bit of support I don't think blink stalkers will crush through unless the map is really favorable for them.
I'd be much more worried about proxy robos
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They (Blizzard) should make balance contest/ test mode (with money prize) and add best in game.
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EPT
