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On November 19 2017 14:44 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 11:33 Loccstana wrote:
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins tbh I'm not sure, tanks still do a ton of dmg to blink stalkers and the range helps with shield batteries. if terran can get 3+ tanks with a bit of support I don't think blink stalkers will crush through unless the map is really favorable for them.
I mean, you could could stalkers if you' want to give terran a chance. or you could have 6 carriers by the time terran hits +2 vehicle weapons.
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On November 19 2017 15:58 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 14:44 washikie wrote:On November 19 2017 11:33 Loccstana wrote:
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins tbh I'm not sure, tanks still do a ton of dmg to blink stalkers and the range helps with shield batteries. if terran can get 3+ tanks with a bit of support I don't think blink stalkers will crush through unless the map is really favorable for them. I mean, you could could stalkers if you' want to give terran a chance. or you could have 6 carriers by the time terran hits +2 vehicle weapons.
so there will be 6 carriers by the time the terran builds 3 siege tanks? .....sure
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On November 19 2017 16:11 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 15:58 SHODAN wrote:On November 19 2017 14:44 washikie wrote:On November 19 2017 11:33 Loccstana wrote:
I cant wait to see the near unstoppable proxy shield battery blink stalker all ins tbh I'm not sure, tanks still do a ton of dmg to blink stalkers and the range helps with shield batteries. if terran can get 3+ tanks with a bit of support I don't think blink stalkers will crush through unless the map is really favorable for them. I mean, you could could stalkers if you' want to give terran a chance. or you could have 6 carriers by the time terran hits +2 vehicle weapons. so there will be 6 carriers by the time the terran builds 3 siege tanks? .....sure
I thought he meant tanks with +3 attack 
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The thing is that you need lots of tanks to win cost efficiently against hydras when you are using mech. But you cannot use lots of tanks if he is going swarm hosts since the splash will kill your own units.
Swarm Hosts / Hydra has no working counter if you use mech.
Thor drops gets shut down by Hydras, hellion or hellbats beaten by hydras+locusts. You can not kill enough of the Swarm Hosts without losing more resources yourself in the attempt.
What is the cause of all this? Blizzard made Swarm Hosts extremely cheap in order to make them popular so that they could figure out their role. The price decrease was supposed to be temporary.
For some reason (probably because most pros used bio so Swarm Host were seen used much in pro play) the price stuck.
And the current situation is this. We are stuck with an absurdly cheap Swarm Host that counters an entire play style and that has no reliable counter play. The speed decrease had almost no impact since you can not get to the Swarm Hosts when they are protected by Hydras.
Solution? Make Swarm Hosts reasonable priced so that they are not always the perfect answer if you see your opponent building more than one factory.
Apart from balance I can not think of any unit that sucks they joy out of playing as much as seeing your opponent going Swarm Hosts and knowing that no matter what you do you will lose. I never met a single Terran that thought it was fun or interesting to play against Swarm Hosts. It is just infuriating and encourages people to stay away from the ladder.
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Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck.
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On November 19 2017 17:52 MockHamill wrote:
Apart from balance I can not think of any unit that sucks they joy out of playing as much as seeing your opponent going Swarm Hosts
No? Mothership protoss mass Air is cancer since day one. Every time i restart playing sc2 i'm gone after a week because of that.
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On November 19 2017 17:52 MockHamill wrote:
The thing is that you need lots of tanks to win cost efficiently against hydras when you are using mech. But you cannot use lots of tanks if he is going swarm hosts since the splash will kill your own units.
Swarm Hosts / Hydra has no working counter if you use mech.
Thor drops gets shut down by Hydras, hellion or hellbats beaten by hydras+locusts. You can not kill enough of the Swarm Hosts without losing more resources yourself in the attempt.
What is the cause of all this? Blizzard made Swarm Hosts extremely cheap in order to make them popular so that they could figure out their role. The price decrease was supposed to be temporary.
For some reason (probably because most pros used bio so Swarm Host were seen used much in pro play) the price stuck.
And the current situation is this. We are stuck with an absurdly cheap Swarm Host that counters an entire play style and that has no reliable counter play. The speed decrease had almost no impact since you can not get to the Swarm Hosts when they are protected by Hydras.
Solution? Make Swarm Hosts reasonable priced so that they are not always the perfect answer if you see your opponent building more than one factory.
Apart from balance I can not think of any unit that sucks they joy out of playing as much as seeing your opponent going Swarm Hosts and knowing that no matter what you do you will lose. I never met a single Terran that thought it was fun or interesting to play against Swarm Hosts. It is just infuriating and encourages people to stay away from the ladder.
Gumiho beat Serral at Blizzcon with Mech.
Serral used Swarmhosts.
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On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck.
I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec.
Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest.
The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW )
Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either.
The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem.
It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it.
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On November 19 2017 19:45 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck. I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec. Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest. The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW ) Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either. The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem. It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it.
hmm, the difference is that locusts and broodlings are separate units that have to be killed and thus provide a meatshield.
Still, if the other stats are fine I don't think free units are a problem.
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On November 19 2017 19:45 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck. I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec. Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest. The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW ) Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either. The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem. It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it.
Yeah i dont agree with this comparison. Siege tanks, lurkers or tempests are siege units. They provide normal damage + they are immobile when doing so (with the exception of tempest, but tempests are expensive and have very specific use and a lot of counters). They do not spawn additional units with fairly high HP and insane DPS that you have to kill first to even be able to reach the swarmhosts. So you are fighting units that do not cost anything after the initial purchase and that scales insanely the longer the swarm hosts survive. Not at all similar to tanks. U can simply run through the siege tank fire and get to them because they cant retreat from a sieged position. Cant run through locusts trying to catch the hosts that are running away.
Dont even get me started on the ability to spawn them from somewhere to fly over a ledge and snipe buildings in seconds. Where u have to go kill the locusts but cant reach the swarm hosts at all.
The only units with a similar concept are brood lords and carriers. But interceptors arent free and broodlings have low HP and damage, they mostly work as a meatshield, the damage dealers are brood lords with the initial attack so thats a lot better.
And im not saying that the unit is broken or unbeatable...imho its just a stupid design and Ive had that opinion ever since hots beta. And i dont agree with your point of view, sorry. Theyre not shots, theyre units.
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On November 19 2017 17:52 MockHamill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The thing is that you need lots of tanks to win cost efficiently against hydras when you are using mech. But you cannot use lots of tanks if he is going swarm hosts since the splash will kill your own units.
Swarm Hosts / Hydra has no working counter if you use mech.
Thor drops gets shut down by Hydras, hellion or hellbats beaten by hydras+locusts. You can not kill enough of the Swarm Hosts without losing more resources yourself in the attempt.
What is the cause of all this? Blizzard made Swarm Hosts extremely cheap in order to make them popular so that they could figure out their role. The price decrease was supposed to be temporary.
For some reason (probably because most pros used bio so Swarm Host were seen used much in pro play) the price stuck.
And the current situation is this. We are stuck with an absurdly cheap Swarm Host that counters an entire play style and that has no reliable counter play. The speed decrease had almost no impact since you can not get to the Swarm Hosts when they are protected by Hydras.
Solution? Make Swarm Hosts reasonable priced so that they are not always the perfect answer if you see your opponent building more than one factory.
Apart from balance I can not think of any unit that sucks they joy out of playing as much as seeing your opponent going Swarm Hosts and knowing that no matter what you do you will lose. I never met a single Terran that thought it was fun or interesting to play against Swarm Hosts. It is just infuriating and encourages people to stay away from the ladder.
That last line is what a huge chunk of the player base has felt about mech and turtle playstyles since WoL, but if you are active on the map with Thors, Hellions, or even Vikings with the new Servos, it is very possible to catch them and take them out. If you struggle against SH with Hydras, then Ravens, Banshees, upgraded Hellions/Hellbats, Marines and plenty of other units can help.
Is there a direct counter? Not exactly, but just because there isn't that doesn't mean they are unstoppable. Everything that has applied to playing against SH for months still applies, just slightly differently and sometimes in Terran's favor now imo. And before someone tries to, you can't use the argument "X unit counters A playstyle, therefore Y unit should counter B playstyle" arguing in favor of a direct counter to (or removal of) SH, because that is an oversimplification ignoring context.
On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck.
On November 19 2017 20:33 FanaticCZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 19 2017 19:45 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck. I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec. Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest. The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW ) Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either. The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem. It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it. Yeah i dont agree with this comparison. Siege tanks, lurkers or tempests are siege units. They provide normal damage + they are immobile when doing so (with the exception of tempest, but tempests are expensive and have very specific use and a lot of counters). They do not spawn additional units with fairly high HP and insane DPS that you have to kill first to even be able to reach the swarmhosts. So you are fighting units that do not cost anything after the initial purchase and that scales insanely the longer the swarm hosts survive. Not at all similar to tanks. U can simply run through the siege tank fire and get to them because they cant retreat from a sieged position. Cant run through locusts trying to catch the hosts that are running away. Dont even get me started on the ability to spawn them from somewhere to fly over a ledge and snipe buildings in seconds. Where u have to go kill the locusts but cant reach the swarm hosts at all. The only units with a similar concept are brood lords and carriers. But interceptors arent free and broodlings have low HP and damage, they mostly work as a meatshield, the damage dealers are brood lords with the initial attack so thats a lot better. And im not saying that the unit is broken or unbeatable...imho its just a stupid design and Ive had that opinion ever since hots beta. And i dont agree with your point of view, sorry. Theyre not shots, theyre units.
"That thing is stupid, I've had this opinion for years, I'm never changing, and I disagree with everything you say." Maybe it's time to be a little more open-minded?
The "free unit" label is only ever used as a simple and often incorrect way to point at SH and for people to act like they are justified in their feelings towards the unit. In reality, there's more going on that people using the label never look at and more often than not make a point to dismiss. Sure, you can't move your structures that get attacked by Locusts which can feel bad actually no, you can move many of your structures because you're Terran, and you can move your own units into or away from the Locusts, Hydras, or SH and that's part of the game that you should be interacting with, just like how Zerg and Protoss have to interact with difficult compositions and strategies.
SH are designed to disrupt turtling and sieging, typically with Terran mech or well shielded Protoss, by using an indirect, long distance form of attack like Brood Lords but unlike BL are acquired sooner and can sometimes survive by running away after being aggressive. Without SH, Zergs have no way to interact with the opponent in these situations outside of Nydus Worms or capturing an enemy worker and making non-Z units. While they do spawn something that also acts as a meat shield during combat, they don't get to do any other actions for a period of time afterward other than move, burrow, and die in that time, and they aren't a strong combat unit because they quickly die no matter what and are incredibly slow like the other non-Broodling spawns.
One might think that since T players (according T players) aren't turtling or sieging too often, or as powerfully, or Z players aren't vocally and loudly feeling bad about it then SH should be nerfed. However, if SH cost gets increased too much, their speed is too low, or their ally units (Hydras, what-have-you) get nerfed, then they can no longer do what they are designed to do, ZvT opens up to being a bad experience more often for Z, and an imbalance will happen again unless units that make turtle and siege strategies strong (plentiful minerals, sturdy structures and mech units) are also changed.
I will concede that the SH stats could be tweaked in ZvT, but only in a small way as long as it doesn't negatively change them in ZvP. Slightly increasing its mineral cost or build time might be fine, but reducing its speed, health, gas cost, or supply seems unreasonable atm. Too many changes all at once isn't good imo unless it's a dire situation, which I don't believe it is + Show Spoiler +(except for the types of Terran players who want their opponents to never interact with them and to completely dominate the ladder which would be a very bad situation regardless of how much those players want that to be true)
To me, the current task, if you must find a solution to Swarm Hosts, is to play and evaluate more games involving them, find out how each player feels about the games in which they were used in, then come back to the supposed problem.
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On November 19 2017 20:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 19:45 IcemanAsi wrote:On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck. I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec. Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest. The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW ) Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either. The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem. It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it. hmm, the difference is that locusts and broodlings are separate units that have to be killed and thus provide a meatshield. Still, if the other stats are fine I don't think free units are a problem.
They don't have to be killed thou, they die out by themselves.
I imagine an interesting nerf could be reducing the locust walk speed, enabling the Terran to more easily pull away from the locusts, not that they are fast now, they are in fact tied with the slowest units in the game.
An interesting point is that they also act as a form of crowd control, preventing forward motion, and damage absorption ( thou at 50 life per locust that seems minimal ).
I still don't think that the direct correlation to 'free units' is correct, the locusts are the SH, they aren't free. They absorb 100 damage, but so does an Immortal Barrier or protoss shields in general, not to mention Terran healing.
Are marines 'free units' because they get healed?
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I dont see why I should be open minded about something that I dislike since theres never been any significant change about that specific aspect of the swarm host. I didnt whine about them being unbeatable or anything like that. Im just saying that the design is stupid and why I have that opinion.
Lifting buildings to save them from Locust ledge-jumps is so much more effort than just spawning them and rallying them in. Not to mention it disrupts your macro and the addons will get sniped while the zerg loses nothing even if you kill the locusts. You can obviously run away from them until they time out but only to a certain extent. You cant exactly run away from them if they are attacking your bases for free.
And they also synergize very well with zerg turtling using mass spores, vipers etc where u cant exactly just push the zerg while wave after wave snipes your costly units while zerg is not losing any resources. I agree that zerg needs a form of response to turtle mech etc but Im sure they couldve come up with something more interesting than a mushroom that spawns shit for free.
But whatever...swarm hosts will be part of this game no matter what I think. I just wanted to say that i hate the design and why. End of story.
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On November 19 2017 19:45 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 18:03 FanaticCZ wrote:
Swarm Host has been a shitty unit ever since its introduction and IMHO the worst unit idea blizzard ever came up with.
Free units suck. I never quite followed this line of thinking, so let's talk about this for a sec. Swarm hosts are a siege unit, capable of doing asymmetric damage, same as the Tank, the Colossus, the Tempest. The Locusts are no more free units then the tank attack is 'free ammo'. In a quite accurate sense the two locusts are the Swarm host. They aren't 'free'. Imagine a zerg is turtling up against a terran. the terran parks outside his base with tanks and begins shelling the zergs base. The tanks aren't taking any damage, and the zerg army is getting crushed. Are the tank shots 'free ammo'? No, they are the damage from the tanks. The zerg should either withdraw or attack. The same with swarmhosts, the locusts aren't free units, they are the SH attack. You are standing in siege range, either move forward and engage the siege units or withdraw ( I agree that SH were too fast for siege units, which is exactly the nerf they got BTW ) Swarm hosts have the longest range of the siege units and the best control of their damage due to managing the locusts and for that they give up attack speed ( 43 seconds per shot vs. tanks 2.14 ) and usability ( attack has to be cast ). The locusts cast is free, it doesn't cost money like a carriers interceptor for example, but then again the carrier can attack constantly and withdraws its interpectors if nothing is attacked, if the carriers interceptors could attack for only 18 seconds and then couldn't attack again for 43 and could not be retracted I don't think they should cost minerals either. The locusts damage, speed, the swarmhosts speed, cooldown and cost. These are all things that can be balanced and have been balanced before. Marking the unit as a 'free unit' and painting it with a 'unbalanceable' brush is just foolish. You can't keep the locusts, you can't build up an army of locusts uncontrolled by the supply mechanic. Which would be a problem. It's a siege unit with shots you can manage, that's it.
thank you, these are exactly my thoughts about the Swarm host!
I honestly don't know why people saying things like "Swarm host/Hydra have not counter play", have these people seen a high level MechvZ in the last 6 months?(and no, avilo's stream is not high level MechvZ)
Swarm hosts are a extremly situational unit. They are really good when Z cornered the mechplayer in his base, they can attack bases where T don't have units and the simcity will work against him, T also can't run away because he need to defend his production.
on the flip side, Swarm hosts are garbage in defensiv situations. I saw so many locust waves getting evaporated befor killing a single unit. A 2/2 mech army sieging your bases, while having 40 useless army supply is most of the time GG for the zerg.
I think most of the mech players(my self included :D) playing mech because they didn't like the nonstop agressive, micromanagement demanding bio play. they want to lean back a bit and play a more passive/defensive style and Swarm hosts are simply really good vs such a style.
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Then what about changing swarmhost this way :
Swarmhost has to be burrowed (or simply immobile for example) during the whole duration of the locust spawn. The player controlling the SH can manually disable the spell to move again but it instantly destroys the locusts.
This would give another form of counterplay, as the zerg player would concede its SH mobility if he want to attack, or would have cancel the locusts / to escort them with other units to be sure that the opponent doesn't kill them during the locust wave.
Quite a nerf but if the opponent does not react correctly or is out of position, the SH will still do a lot of damage. The interaction between the zerg and its opponent could be more interesting.
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SH is bad design? Tell me about sitting in your base with siege tanks and turrets, being unattackable while trading mineral only units for workers the whole game.
And what's good design? Zerg having to bet everything on vipers to counter siege tanks? Or maybe some late game units that are all hard countered by ghosts? Please.
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Mexico2170 Posts
When Is this patch going live? I want to abuse proxy oracles a little more.
The 27th of november? of did he mean there would be a second patch that day?
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On November 19 2017 18:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 17:52 MockHamill wrote:
The thing is that you need lots of tanks to win cost efficiently against hydras when you are using mech. But you cannot use lots of tanks if he is going swarm hosts since the splash will kill your own units.
Swarm Hosts / Hydra has no working counter if you use mech.
Thor drops gets shut down by Hydras, hellion or hellbats beaten by hydras+locusts. You can not kill enough of the Swarm Hosts without losing more resources yourself in the attempt.
What is the cause of all this? Blizzard made Swarm Hosts extremely cheap in order to make them popular so that they could figure out their role. The price decrease was supposed to be temporary.
For some reason (probably because most pros used bio so Swarm Host were seen used much in pro play) the price stuck.
And the current situation is this. We are stuck with an absurdly cheap Swarm Host that counters an entire play style and that has no reliable counter play. The speed decrease had almost no impact since you can not get to the Swarm Hosts when they are protected by Hydras.
Solution? Make Swarm Hosts reasonable priced so that they are not always the perfect answer if you see your opponent building more than one factory.
Apart from balance I can not think of any unit that sucks they joy out of playing as much as seeing your opponent going Swarm Hosts and knowing that no matter what you do you will lose. I never met a single Terran that thought it was fun or interesting to play against Swarm Hosts. It is just infuriating and encourages people to stay away from the ladder.
Gumiho beat Serral at Blizzcon with Mech. Serral used Swarmhosts.
Yes, that was the one MECHvSH where MECH won. There were 3-4 other mech vs swarmhost and mech always lost.
Gumiho won, because he was out on the map, not at home defending. The most important thing is, he won with hellion/tank, NOT with Thors, let alone speed boosting them down the Z's throat
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Why do players tend to not use a few speed Banshees against isolated, unsupported SHs?
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EPT
