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Finland965 Posts
On August 31 2017 20:51 TheOneAboveU wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2017 20:45 sneakyfox wrote:
Just realized why these rankings are so odd. You guys count online games as much as offline games. Makes no sense. I personally don't value them equally. But as stated in the introduction, this ranking is the result of putting the rankings of multiple writers together. Since we're not a hivemind, we may value certain aspects differently than our colleagues. Also I ranked Classic on the same position as Olli, so I plead innocent on that point. 
This way no one is really happy with the results, so it's absolutely the best way to do things.
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On August 31 2017 23:52 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On August 31 2017 19:50 Phredxor wrote:
If TYs rank is based on his ability why wasn't he ranked anywhere last time? We saw next to nothing of him before the latest ranking. Didn't he get IEM ro4 right before?
He did. That's why i don't get it.
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It's getting to that time of year, when players ramp up their end-year preparations. The champions of GSL and SSL will obviously be big favorites going into Blizzcon.
Speaking of Blizzcon, I think the WCS-points math means that only ByuN and herO out of the current Top 8 are in danger of missing Blizzcon?
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On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking
In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win".
If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator
Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape
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On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape
Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues.
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On September 01 2017 03:59 pvsnp wrote:Speaking of Blizzcon, I think the WCS-points math means that only ByuN and herO out of the current Top 8 are in danger of missing Blizzcon?
Mathematically speaking, Dark, herO, and ByuN can still fall out.
Dark is garanteed a place if sOs doesn't make the GSL final as well. Unless the GSL final is sOs vs ByuN again, the odds of Dark getting knocked out are very slim
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On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues.
It's about correlation. If you are good offline, you have to be somewhat decent on ladder. So someone does care.
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On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues.
And guess what....if you want to win a starleague, you have to spend all day practicing. For many players nowadays, this comes in the form of laddering. You're seriously telling me that beating Inno, Rogue, soO, ByuN, Zest etc (all the ladder kings) on a daily bases doesn't indicate a player is doing good??
That attitude is why no one thought ByuN had a chance in GSL last year even though he was number 1 online, and then he won. Remember when Neeb eventually reached the top level of the korean ladder after moving there? And then he won kespa cup. People even kept doubting Rogue recently, saying ladder performance doesn't carry over to offline, and then he won IEM.
I never said that being no.1 on ladder means the same as any decent offline result. I said it's an indicator that a player is doing well. Many players have shown this to be true. soO, Rogue, ByuN, Neeb etc
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On September 01 2017 04:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues. And guess what....if you want to win a starleague, you have to spend all day practicing. For many players nowadays, this comes in the form of laddering. You're seriously telling me that beating Inno, Rogue, soO, ByuN, Zest etc (all the ladder kings) on a daily bases doesn't indicate a player is doing good?? That attitude is why no one thought ByuN had a chance in GSL last year even though he was number 1 online, and then he won. Remember when Neeb eventually reached the top level of the korean ladder after moving there? And then he won kespa cup. People even kept doubting Rogue recently, saying ladder performance doesn't carry over to offline, and then he won IEM. I never said that being no.1 on ladder means the same as any decent offline result. I said it's an indicator that a player is doing well. Many players have shown this to be true. soO, Rogue, ByuN, Neeb etc
Yeah... still it's a lot of conjecture one way or the other. We have a lot of cases where this translated into wins, and just as many where it didn't, or at the very least it took a long time. Even ByuN falls into the latter, where he was mopping the floor with online tournies for a long long time before he finally made his big LAN comeback (not just comeback but career peak).
I'm mostly on the side that at least online tournies should count somewhat, but it's hard to ignore how many examples we've had in the past of players who despite doing very well online either never managed to achieve a breakthrough performance at a high profile LAN, or took a lot longer than we expected them to (months, even years).
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Honestly.... I think Rogue / Stats / Innovation is a good top 3 for sure. I'm not so sold right now in the order of them though.
Before Rogue hit Stats today, he's looked basically unbeatable in PvZ but much more "meh" in PvT. Stats is showing true dominance (offline) against everyone not named Innovation, and Inno was much weaker in TvP than expected this SSL round.
I'd probably be ok saying Rogue<Stats=Inno, but the long number of sweeps of Stats Inno has managed to pull out is hard to make the argument that Inno wouldn't win a h2h.
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On September 01 2017 05:09 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Honestly.... I think Rogue / Stats / Innovation is a good top 3 for sure. I'm not so sold right now in the order of them though.
Before Rogue hit Stats today, he's looked basically unbeatable in PvZ but much more "meh" in PvT. Stats is showing true dominance against everyone not named Innovation, and Inno was much weaker in TvP than expected this SSL round.
I'd probably be ok saying Rogue<Stats=Inno, but the long number of sweeps of Stats Inno has managed to pull out is hard to make the argument that Inno wouldn't win a h2h.
The rivalry of Inno and Stats has had a pretty significant impact on Korean tournaments ever since Blizzcon 2016.
IEM Gyeonggi: Inno 4-0 Stats in Finals, takes trophy
GSL Season 1: Stats 3-2 Inno in Ro8, later takes trophy
SSL Season 1: Inno 2-0 Stats in RR, later takes trophy
GSL vs the World: Inno 3-0 Stats in Ro4, later takes trophy
Currently, Stats is in the SSL Season 2 finals after beating Inno 2-0 during the RR. Stats vs Inno could also be the GSL finals.
Head-to-head they are very close, with Inno holding a slight lead. In 2017, Stats has been more consistent but Inno has more trophies. Either one would have a good case for being the best player of 2017.
Some of those Inno vs Stats series were really onesided though.
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On September 01 2017 05:03 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 04:24 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues. And guess what....if you want to win a starleague, you have to spend all day practicing. For many players nowadays, this comes in the form of laddering. You're seriously telling me that beating Inno, Rogue, soO, ByuN, Zest etc (all the ladder kings) on a daily bases doesn't indicate a player is doing good?? That attitude is why no one thought ByuN had a chance in GSL last year even though he was number 1 online, and then he won. Remember when Neeb eventually reached the top level of the korean ladder after moving there? And then he won kespa cup. People even kept doubting Rogue recently, saying ladder performance doesn't carry over to offline, and then he won IEM. I never said that being no.1 on ladder means the same as any decent offline result. I said it's an indicator that a player is doing well. Many players have shown this to be true. soO, Rogue, ByuN, Neeb etc Yeah... still it's a lot of conjecture one way or the other. We have a lot of cases where this translated into wins, and just as many where it didn't, or at the very least it took a long time. Even ByuN falls into the latter, where he was mopping the floor with online tournies for a long long time before he finally made his big LAN comeback (not just comeback but career peak). I'm mostly on the side that at least online tournies should count somewhat, but it's hard to ignore how many examples we've had in the past of players who despite doing very well online either never managed to achieve a breakthrough performance at a high profile LAN, or took a lot longer than we expected them to (months, even years).
Well if two players are looking similarly strong in tournaments and one is crushing the ladder while the other is not, I'd clearly favor the one who is crushing ladder. It doesn't outweigh tournament results but it surely has some value.
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On September 01 2017 05:17 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 05:09 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Honestly.... I think Rogue / Stats / Innovation is a good top 3 for sure. I'm not so sold right now in the order of them though.
Before Rogue hit Stats today, he's looked basically unbeatable in PvZ but much more "meh" in PvT. Stats is showing true dominance against everyone not named Innovation, and Inno was much weaker in TvP than expected this SSL round.
I'd probably be ok saying Rogue<Stats=Inno, but the long number of sweeps of Stats Inno has managed to pull out is hard to make the argument that Inno wouldn't win a h2h. The rivalry of Inno and Stats has had a pretty significant impact on Korean tournaments ever since Blizzcon 2016. IEM Gyeonggi: Inno 4-0 Stats in Finals, takes trophy GSL Season 1: Stats 3-2 Inno in Ro8, later takes trophy SSL Season 1: Inno 2-0 Stats in RR, later takes trophy GSL vs the World: Inno 3-0 Stats in Ro4, later takes trophy Currently, Stats is in the SSL Season 2 finals after beating Inno 2-0 during the RR. Stats vs Inno could also be the GSL finals. Head-to-head they are very close, with Inno holding a slight lead. In 2017, Stats has been more consistent but Inno has more trophies. Either one would have a good case for being the best player of 2017. Some of those Inno vs Stats series were really onesided though.
EXTREMELY one sided.... but yeah. I'd agree.
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On September 01 2017 05:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 05:03 207aicila wrote:On September 01 2017 04:24 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues. And guess what....if you want to win a starleague, you have to spend all day practicing. For many players nowadays, this comes in the form of laddering. You're seriously telling me that beating Inno, Rogue, soO, ByuN, Zest etc (all the ladder kings) on a daily bases doesn't indicate a player is doing good?? That attitude is why no one thought ByuN had a chance in GSL last year even though he was number 1 online, and then he won. Remember when Neeb eventually reached the top level of the korean ladder after moving there? And then he won kespa cup. People even kept doubting Rogue recently, saying ladder performance doesn't carry over to offline, and then he won IEM. I never said that being no.1 on ladder means the same as any decent offline result. I said it's an indicator that a player is doing well. Many players have shown this to be true. soO, Rogue, ByuN, Neeb etc Yeah... still it's a lot of conjecture one way or the other. We have a lot of cases where this translated into wins, and just as many where it didn't, or at the very least it took a long time. Even ByuN falls into the latter, where he was mopping the floor with online tournies for a long long time before he finally made his big LAN comeback (not just comeback but career peak). I'm mostly on the side that at least online tournies should count somewhat, but it's hard to ignore how many examples we've had in the past of players who despite doing very well online either never managed to achieve a breakthrough performance at a high profile LAN, or took a lot longer than we expected them to (months, even years). Well if two players are looking similarly strong in tournaments and one is crushing the ladder while the other is not, I'd clearly favor the one who is crushing ladder. It doesn't outweigh tournament results but it surely has some value.
In that situation sure, 100% agreed.
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On September 01 2017 05:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 05:03 207aicila wrote:On September 01 2017 04:24 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 04:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On September 01 2017 04:07 Fango wrote:On September 01 2017 01:12 ruypture wrote:On September 01 2017 00:47 highsis wrote:
Zest played 8 practices matches against Rogue and went 7-1 a week ago.
Someone who is sitting at the top of the Korean GM should have a place in the rank IMO. I don't think ladder rankings should ever be considered in a top player ranking In my opinion a power rank should basically mean "if everyone played in a tournament right today, who's most likely to win". If someone is seriously (and I mean seriously) killing it online, they probably have a good chance at doing well offline. For example, disregarding online/ladder performances means that ByuN and Rogue would never have made it into a top 10 PR right before their big tournament wins. Looking back, we know that they proved to be some of the best players during those times. And their success online should have been an indicator Doing poorly online doesn't necessarily indicate a player is in bad form (e.g TY). However if you're crushing Inno, soO, ByuN etc on a daily bases, that can at least suggest you're in good shape Ladder has no value. No one cares if they lose a ladder match or online tourney. They care about starleagues. And guess what....if you want to win a starleague, you have to spend all day practicing. For many players nowadays, this comes in the form of laddering. You're seriously telling me that beating Inno, Rogue, soO, ByuN, Zest etc (all the ladder kings) on a daily bases doesn't indicate a player is doing good?? That attitude is why no one thought ByuN had a chance in GSL last year even though he was number 1 online, and then he won. Remember when Neeb eventually reached the top level of the korean ladder after moving there? And then he won kespa cup. People even kept doubting Rogue recently, saying ladder performance doesn't carry over to offline, and then he won IEM. I never said that being no.1 on ladder means the same as any decent offline result. I said it's an indicator that a player is doing well. Many players have shown this to be true. soO, Rogue, ByuN, Neeb etc Yeah... still it's a lot of conjecture one way or the other. We have a lot of cases where this translated into wins, and just as many where it didn't, or at the very least it took a long time. Even ByuN falls into the latter, where he was mopping the floor with online tournies for a long long time before he finally made his big LAN comeback (not just comeback but career peak). I'm mostly on the side that at least online tournies should count somewhat, but it's hard to ignore how many examples we've had in the past of players who despite doing very well online either never managed to achieve a breakthrough performance at a high profile LAN, or took a lot longer than we expected them to (months, even years). Well if two players are looking similarly strong in tournaments and one is crushing the ladder while the other is not, I'd clearly favor the one who is crushing ladder. It doesn't outweigh tournament results but it surely has some value.
Nah ladder can show that someone has the potential to play well in tournaments, but if he doesn't do that then there is no point in valuign ladder at all. Tournament results matter, everybody wants to win tournaments. Not everybody wants to grind ladder to be first. Ladder placement is meaningless in judging a player.
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United States97277 Posts
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I am a Byun fan but even i think he is ranked way too high in this ranking.
He's more like a 7th-8th for me.
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Any comment on the possibility to add indicators for the ranking? Would be useful to see where the players ranked the edition before.
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On September 02 2017 00:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Any comment on the possibility to add indicators for the ranking? Would be useful to see where the players ranked the edition before.
Community power rank = best power rank
Edit: I also object to the apparent lack of Zest in this PR because anything Stats can do, Zest can do better
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On September 02 2017 01:08 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2017 00:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Any comment on the possibility to add indicators for the ranking? Would be useful to see where the players ranked the edition before. Community power rank = best power rank Edit: I also object to the apparent lack of Zest in this PR because anything Stats can do, Zest can do better
Not sure if i will keep doing those now that the official ones are back, depends if people enjoyed it or not i guess
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EPT
