EPTCommunity Feedback Update - July 12 - Page 9
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On July 17 2017 17:46 Tyrhanius wrote: And Zerg haven't won any of the last 15 premier tournament isn't a fact ? No win for 10 months ? No race has never stopped winning for this long. You're mad when people counter argument with you while you just choose the facts you want, ignore the others and create your own story of Zerg doing really great recently while it's not the case. If you not ready to discuss with people who has different points of view without martyring yourself, and act like a drama queen, don't start the the balance discussion, you're ridiculous. good points. ya, i think Zerg needs a buff. either through other races being nerfed.. or a direct Zerg buff. DISCLAIMER: i play as Terran 40% of the time and Random 60% of the time. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On July 17 2017 01:06 Selevk7 wrote: Hello everyone! Hello, nice to see a new face here  I don´t know if I watch and play the same game as some of you guys. Nearly every TvZ match in GSL and SSL have at least one reaper game and most of the time the terran is in a good spot after the early game. So not only Byun can play 3rr, perhaps Byun is the best but he´s not the only one to pull it of. | ||
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franzji
United States581 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On July 18 2017 04:06 youngjiddle wrote: Anyone who thinks that zerg is underpowered because they haven't won first, while zerg has had multiple 2nd place finishes and huge representation in ro16/ro8's should be banned from these threads. at the top level too many Zergs getting shredded before they can even get started by heavy Reaper openings as everyone starts imitating Byun.... and every GSL level Terran is getting better and better at imitating his Reaper moves/tricks/techniques. Leenock got 3-Rax Reapered right out of his group in RO32. based on what GSL level Terrans can do with the Reaper.. it has to be looked at and something has to change. at other levels of play the Reaper is just not much of a threat. you have to balance at the top level first. its the most important level of play. then you try to balance other levels as best you can. no diverse race RTS is balanced across many levels of play. At certain skill levels a diverse race RTS game is always imba in favour of 1 race. if the game is fun then hobby-level players will play in spite of balance issues at their level. its why i kept playing RA2, RA3 and SC2. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On July 17 2017 01:30 xTJx wrote: Did Avilo brainwash all terrans players? How can you people literaly think that nerfing reapers and ravens will cause Terran to not be competitive anymore? How can you think you know better about dealing with 3 rax reaper than code S zergs? How can you literaly think that terran is the only race that requires micro? Jesus Christ, just stop this madness. Eh, it's common sense that if you nerf only one race over and over it's going to become less competitive. I mean...Terran is already the weakest race in terms of foreign players don't you notice that almost every "top foreigner" happens to be Zerg or Protoss? If Terran is nerfed more the race as a whole will start to become unplayable at pro level. Having a few players play 1 race competitively is really, really unhealthy for a game. It's clear that Blizzard has had a bad habit historically of nerfing Terran simply because only 1-2 players win a tournament with it, and the race becomes harder to use for everyone else. THat is not how a game should be balanced. A game should be balanced to be fun and well designed and fair for a player despite the race they pick. Now with that being said, i think 99% of Terran players all agree - mass reapers, mass ravens are very bullshit. But here is the CATCH to this. We all agree this is a problem but Terran players seem to be the "good guys" in the community for balance. We will be open and honest when things are broken with Terran but apparently it's perfectly fine for Zerg to have coin flip ravager all-ins, overlord drop tech on tier 1, and invincible nydus worms? Do you see the issue? There is a huge hypocrisy and bias when it comes to Blizzard's own balance and the community's discussion of balance. If it's Terran it deserves to be nerfed. But let's not talk about the corresponding things of the other races that are absolute batshit insane and stupid too. If there is to be a discussion on 3 rax reaper and mass ravens, then players and the community have to be equally willing to discuss how batshit crazy mass swarmhost vs mech is, ravager all-ins, and mass carriers. I do not expect this to change because this community and Blizzard balance is always anti-Terran 100%. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On July 15 2017 17:08 Scarlett` wrote: if you're having trouble thinking of viable aggressive openings in tvz ill help you out a lil~ proxy -> 2 rax marine into banshee -> Held by making 4-6 queens 4 rax marine Held by making 4-6 queens 1 rax reaper into cc Held by making 4-6 queens 3 rax reaper into -> Held by making 4-6 queens 2 medivac marine drop Held by making 4-6 queens 2 medivac 16 reaper Held by making 4-6 queens 3cc 2 ebay Held by making 4-6 queens 5 rax reaper Held by making 4-6 queens cc first into -> 2 factory cyclone hellbat Held by roach 1 rax reaper/marine expand into -> hellion banshee Held by making 4-6 queens hellion raven Held by making 4-6 queens 4 hellion drop Held by making 4-6 queens widow mine drop into tank drop Held by making 4-6 queens 2 mine drop with 4 hellion runby Held by making 4-6 queens 2/1/1 -> into 4 medivac 1/1 timing Held by making 4-6 queens -> into 2 tank/ marine drop Held by making 4-6 queens -> no reactor on starport fast hellbat/marine all in Held by making 4-6 queens -> into 5rax (2cc) marine mine all in Held by making 4-6 queens -> into 3 medivac 1 mine 3cc 1 ebay Held by making 4-6 queens 6 hellbat 3 marine 1 medivac 1 liberator Held by making 4-6 queens 8 hellbat 1 cloak banshee Held by making 4-6 queens 2cc liberator range Held by making 4-6 queens 2 fac cyclone hellbat Held by making 4-6 queens aggressive mech transition followups -> speed banshee Held by making 4-6 queens 2 thor drop Held by making 4-6 queens 4 cyclone hellbat timing with +1 Held by making 4-6 queens im sure i missed a few but im not a terran player and yes ravager all ins can kill a terran if they dont defend properly but if it doesnt win you the game you're just dead; with reapers you can do 0 damage other than forcing lings and still be ahead And all of the openers you listed are held by clicking the Queen hotkey 8 times (except maybe the cyclone one) Very biased post, regardless of your skill level you should acknowledge that ravager openers are very coin flip and can simply just end a game or put you far ahead with little to no risk - just the same as reaper openers. You can't have it both ways. You can't want reaper all-ins nerfed but then say ravager all-ins are completely 100% ok. That's not how balance design works. It's also why Blizzard should NEVER ever listen to "pros" that are participating in tournaments as there is always a huge inherent bias with many "progamers" to their own race. You also kind of just proved my point - seems Terran players are willing to call out their own stuff as imba when it is, but Z/P wanna keep everything that is equally op in the game while simply having T nerfed. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On July 18 2017 08:32 avilo wrote:s 3 rax reaper into -> Held by making 4-6 queens Avilo's claim is 3 Rax Reaper can be held by making 4 to 6 Queens. I disagree. The Reapers will shred the Zerg if their defense consists of 4 to 6 queens. To hold it Zerg must build speed Zerglings rather than drones. i disagree. However, no one is 100% objective. That said, i appreciate Scarlett's insights and Scarlett taking the time to post here. i hope Scarlett keeps posting here despite receiving some off-base rebuttals. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On July 18 2017 05:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: at the top level too many Zergs getting shredded before they can even get started by heavy Reaper openings as everyone starts imitating Byun.... and every GSL level Terran is getting better and better at imitating his Reaper moves/tricks/techniques. Leenock got 3-Rax Reapered right out of his group in RO32. based on what GSL level Terrans can do with the Reaper.. it has to be looked at and something has to change. at other levels of play the Reaper is just not much of a threat. you have to balance at the top level first. its the most important level of play. then you try to balance other levels as best you can. no diverse race RTS is balanced across many levels of play. At certain skill levels a diverse race RTS game is always imba in favour of 1 race. if the game is fun then hobby-level players will play in spite of balance issues at their level. its why i kept playing RA2, RA3 and SC2. Nerfing reapers for design is not crazy, theres too many reapers openings going ATM and its kind of stupid. But so far his point stands, they have many 2nd places to say they are in a bad spot balance wise. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On July 18 2017 09:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Avilo's claim is 3 Rax Reaper can be held by making 4 to 6 Queens. I disagree. The Reapers will shred the Zerg if their defense consists of 4 to 6 queens. To hold it Zerg must build speed Zerglings rather than drones. i disagree. However, no one is 100% objective. That said, i appreciate Scarlett's insights and Scarlett taking the time to post here. i hope Scarlett keeps posting here despite receiving some off-base rebuttals. I agree, I hope Scarlett keeps posting insightful and helpful content. And I try not to reply to Avilo much. That much salt is bad for my diet, and I need to keep my blood pressure down. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States671 Posts
Currently, the midgame favors the Z, but the lategame / endgame favors the protoss. It should get evened out a bit. I say add an upgrade requiring hive for the Lurker so it can't be hit by air while burrowed, and divide the hydra upgrade into 2 hydra upgrades. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
But the problem is that I can say same thing about hellbat push. Zerg can defend it with good scout, roaches or banelings with queens. If he doesn't scout it it often ends the game. The difference is that if Zerg fails Ravager allin- he's dead. If Terran fails hellbats- he goes in further stage of the game as nothing happened. To be honest even something as gimicky as mass reapers is not an allin for Terran in any means. Is any pressure of Terran allin? No. He can always pull perfect macro game from all his ballshit. So no Avilo. There's no need to nerf Ravagers. Must I remind You that they've already been nerfed? The only reason you whine about Ravagers is because they perfectly counter your turtle and static style of mech which for they were designed for. And you still refuse to adapt. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
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Selevk7
3 Posts
I think that colossi shouldn't be buffed in PvT. Because protoss colossi are decent versus marines if you chronoboost an attack upgrade (and if you have more than 3 colossi versus 60 marines and 12 vikings). Nowadays protoss players can defend if they add gateways in correct time and tech to archons and storms or aggressive themselves with something like adept-phoenix/disruptor timing. At least from what i've seen. In TvP protoss always has faster third. For instance, with oracle containment from pylon-rush (Classic). Protoss can also go for different build, proxyma calls for a 2016-esk Robo-twilight-[DT](Zest), on maps with stacked mineral patches Robo-RoboBay-disruptor drop(dear), mass gateway style with phoenixes(herO), good protoss always mixes a cheese (sOs). That's enough build order diversity imho. TvP doesn't seem unbalanced to me: both races can get "protossed" or "terraned" on different maps and different stages of game. IMHO good examples are Showtime vs Heromarine (showtime attempted warp prism adept in every game, but it eventually went from 2-0 to 2-3 to HeroMarine), herO vs aLive (jesus, adept-phoenix 4:0 every game xD), Innovation vs Classic (classic rushed him with pylons in 70% of games in online cups [even on lotv vaani research station]), Byun vs Classic (Byun goes for abnormal amount of proxy factories vs him in online cups), Stats vs anybody(plays a little differently vs Byun and Inno and very different vs other terrans). TvP has a fragile, but fun and asymmetric balance with a lot of opponent studying. Don't just buff colossi because you want to see them. It wouldn't give protoss players a super OP unit, but would give more build order diversity, but nothing to terran. --- PvZ thoughts: Yea, when it's mass hydra-ling-bane every game it is an issue. I'm not sure if it is actually imbalanced, but zergs have stopped going for any other composition. I would like to see some mind'games from zergs too. Roach-ravager timings/ling drops/nyduses/swarmhost harass squads/ling-bane-ravager technically haven't become weaker, but hydra-bane is so much better. MAYBE you shouldn't buff colossi (affects pvt more than pvz), but debuff hydras a little bit? I mean, hydras got 3 buffs, banelings got a buff too. My thoughts are: debuff hydralisk attack speed (but keep range and move speed), and to make roach/ roach-hydra/ lurker-based compositions more viable, give immortals old shields. I'll explain why it would be a nerf for immortal: New 100+100 shielded immortal takes 17 hydra shots to take hull damage Old 100 (max 10 damage) immortal shield takes 11 hydra shots to take hull damage. Lings are also infinitely better vs old immortal shields. And lings are supposed to good vs immortals. Such change wouldn't affect PvT because nobody goes for tank-mech or mass immortal anyways(unless it's 1 time sOs with double proxy robo lol), and wouldn't affect ZvT because even if zerg chooses to make hydras instead of mutas, they aren't main damage dealers in zerg army. --- ps: i assume most of your "pro" feedback comes from foreign pros, and most of them are zerg and interested at zerg buff. I mean, all those guys in this thread should count how much more money zergs have won this year even without winning a premier eve~(oh wait, elazer won a zvz final). Even in Korea, last year's gsl-ssl cross final was zvz in this year, soO got in like every final lol. I'm not trying to belittle soO's wins, but i'm saying that top zerg can get to finals even in region that has Innovation and neo protoss dragons with 6 different styles and gsl/ssl trophies in their pockets. pps: please don't nerf any race "just because" innovation wins. That raven nerf seems a "just because" nerf near "just because" colossi buff. You're going to nerf ravens because they aren't used at pro level, but buff colossi because they aren't used at pro level (what?). Removal of interesting terran aggressive macro opening is also debatable. Then remove pylon-msc-oracle opening too, remove pool first-gas-hatch too. pps: sorry for long message mods :3 --- Sorry if i repeated myself, or wished your race to be nerfed, I wanted this post to look logical. | ||
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Selevk7
3 Posts
On July 18 2017 17:56 Tyrhanius wrote: ...no reason for terran not to open like this every game as soon as you master reaper control. Hello The reason to not open 3 RR every game is pool-gas-hatch and/or zerg that spent his time mastering his unit control, like binding queens and spine on 1 hot-key to click-oneshot a reaper. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On July 18 2017 18:43 Selevk7 wrote: Hello The reason to not open 3 RR every game is pool-gas-hatch and/or zerg that spent his time mastering his unit control, like binding queens and spine on 1 hot-key to click-oneshot a reaper. You engage in front of a spine ? If he build 1 spine at each base you just deny creep and third and you have won. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On July 18 2017 09:18 Lexender wrote: Nerfing reapers for design is not crazy, theres too many reapers openings going ATM and its kind of stupid. But so far his point stands, they have many 2nd places to say they are in a bad spot balance wise. they'll end up in a bad spot balance-wise when GSL-Terrans learn Byun's Reaper methods. any how, the GSL has been really good the last 2 seasons so whatever Blizz changes ... i hope its done with a surgeon's scalpel and not a chainsaw. i'm finding all 3 mirror matches entertaining... and that's tough to pull off. regarding this "huge representation of Zergs". Season 2 GSL RO32 had 10 Zergs., RO16 had 5 Zergs, RO8 had 2 Zergs. So Zerg representation is slightly below 1/3. Season 3 RO32 has 10 Zergs. Of the 10 who've advanced to RO16 Season its 3 Zergs. Again, slightly below 1/3. Its not a "huge representation". To then build upon this "huge representation" comment with this "should be banned" stuff... takes the convo too far off the topic when the basic facts are in question. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On July 18 2017 08:23 avilo wrote: Eh, it's common sense that if you nerf only one race over and over it's going to become less competitive. I mean...Terran is already the weakest race in terms of foreign players don't you notice that almost every "top foreigner" happens to be Zerg or Protoss? If Terran is nerfed more the race as a whole will start to become unplayable at pro level. Having a few players play 1 race competitively is really, really unhealthy for a game. It's clear that Blizzard has had a bad habit historically of nerfing Terran simply because only 1-2 players win a tournament with it, and the race becomes harder to use for everyone else. THat is not how a game should be balanced. A game should be balanced to be fun and well designed and fair for a player despite the race they pick. Now with that being said, i think 99% of Terran players all agree - mass reapers, mass ravens are very bullshit. But here is the CATCH to this. We all agree this is a problem but Terran players seem to be the "good guys" in the community for balance. We will be open and honest when things are broken with Terran but apparently it's perfectly fine for Zerg to have coin flip ravager all-ins, overlord drop tech on tier 1, and invincible nydus worms? Do you see the issue? There is a huge hypocrisy and bias when it comes to Blizzard's own balance and the community's discussion of balance. If it's Terran it deserves to be nerfed. But let's not talk about the corresponding things of the other races that are absolute batshit insane and stupid too. If there is to be a discussion on 3 rax reaper and mass ravens, then players and the community have to be equally willing to discuss how batshit crazy mass swarmhost vs mech is, ravager all-ins, and mass carriers. I do not expect this to change because this community and Blizzard balance is always anti-Terran 100%. First you come with the same "Blizzard hates terran and it's the only race that takes skill" talk, then you say you're the good guys that wanna discuss unbiased balance? LOL? Just 10 minutes ago a guy from GSL chat was messaging me trying to prove Terran takes more skill than the other races. I'll just treat you guys like the crybabies you are from now on. Reapers are dumb, they're getting nerfed. Ravens are cancer, they're getting nerfed, and if you complain i'll send a note to your moms. | ||
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QuinnTheEskimo
Germany55 Posts
On July 18 2017 17:29 hiroshOne wrote: Avilo said that Ravager Allin is a coinflip and its OP. Terran can defend this (as we saw multiple times) with good scout and preperations (bunkers, cyclones). If Terran is catched off guard ofc he's most probably dead. But the problem is that I can say same thing about hellbat push. Zerg can defend it with good scout, roaches or banelings with queens. If he doesn't scout it it often ends the game. The difference is that if Zerg fails Ravager allin- he's dead. If Terran fails hellbats- he goes in further stage of the game as nothing happened. To be honest even something as gimicky as mass reapers is not an allin for Terran in any means. Is any pressure of Terran allin? No. He can always pull perfect macro game from all his ballshit. That the build can be countered and defended has nothing to do with being a coin flip. The Roach/Raveger build is coinflippy, because it is (most likely) all-in and the Zerg has to decide to do it very early, without having any in-game information that encourages or discourages the build. [edit] Personally I'd say Roach/Raveger is a very strong opening, not an all-in and therefore not a coin flip, but that is due to my position way down the ladder.[/edit] A Hellbat push is a Hellbat push, not an all in. The Roach/Raveger tends to become all-in very quickly, because it does cost a lot, very early in the game. That you are done (in most cases) after your all-in fails is the very reason why it is called an all-in. A single refinery can only support non-stop production of reapers out of two raxes. For a 3 rax reaper opening 2 refineries are required. The refineries are required early on, or the third rax cannot be counted. Starting out with 3 raxes and two refineries is at least an initial invest of 600 minerals. After that, producing 3 reapers at a time means an average cost of 150 minerals and 150 gas every 32 seconds, i.e. 281 minerals per minute and 281 gas per minute. This early in the game, this is a massive invest. Think about it: 10 Reapers cost as much minerals and gas as five Ravegers. All together a Reaper opening is not really that much cheaper as a Raveger opening. To claim T could just do that while aiming for a macro game is wishful thinking, at best. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
I don't know or care WHY it happens, but it does. And it's hurting the game. | ||
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