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On July 16 2017 02:56 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 02:45 Aegwynn wrote:On July 16 2017 02:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 02:30 Aegwynn wrote:On July 16 2017 02:14 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
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Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
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Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
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Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
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Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time. Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf. How on earth any of the things you just rambled here has anything to do with my post? Some main ideas from your post: It's nearly impossible to come out even or ahead vs. 3 rax reaper. Zerg micro doesn't reward enough. Main idea of my post: That's a bunch of bullshit? And all million other things you wrote there? First one is true at top level at certain maps. I was just correcting a misconception about roach warren vs reapers and there is nothing wrong in what i said. Second one is not an idea its a fact so it can't be a bullshit. LOL love this logic tho. I'm not disputing that Terran units don't have a higher skill ceiling for micro than zerg units - what I'm saying is that using that as a reason to nerf Terran is a bullshit. Zerg has 100% better macro mechanic than Terran and better late game tech - so to you it would be fair if they also had units that could be micro'd to as high potential as Terran units? Each race has stronger and weaker points - which is obvious and shouldn't need pointing out. Being able to take a max fight late game with one unit comp already with an edge vs Terran and then instantly remax on a totally different tech tree that counters what they are stuck in more than compensates for not being able to stim and split away from splash damage (which I might add - you can definitely split your lings and banes off of widow mines). These trade offs exist in every match-up. The only thing keeping the matchup at balance presently is the fact that Zerg has to prepare for this opening and can't yolo greed every game they don't feel like cheesing to an unbeatable late game army.
No, i didn't use that as a reason to nerf Terran, hell i don't even think Terran needs a nerf. Its just that reapers are bad for viewership experience.
The genius guy i was responding was thinking that all the korean terrans are good at microing and no zerg is capable of microing their banelings one by one. He thinks that you can dodge bullets in sc2 when you move your units away.
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On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth.
A foreigner-only tournament gives Zerg it's first Premier win in 10 months and suddenly it's a problem.
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On July 16 2017 03:34 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth. A foreigner-only tournament gives Zerg it's first Premier win in 10 months and suddenly it's a problem.
Was Zerg not winning any finals a problem when soO was in consecutive GSL finals and Solar in SSL finals? Or Nerchio and Serral? Because obviously those four players encompass the entirety of the Zerg race, played perfect games, and embodied the complete fulfillment of Zerg potential. A stupid argument got a stupid answer today. Hopefully the Zerg whiners will stop bitching about not having won a final in forever.
Nah, the new whine will just be "Zerg only won 1 final in 2017, need buffs." Your post makes that clear enough.
So sick of the endless crying. If it isn't Zerg needing buffs, it's Terran, if it isn't Terran it's Protoss. Or all three at the same time, because all of them are clearly underpowered against all the other races, simultaneously. Somehow.
BW has it's own problems ofc, but one thing it got right was no balance changes, ever.
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On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results?
Hello,
i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post.
First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening.
Here are some facts:
1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool.
2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural.
3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong.
Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin
4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time.
You are absolutely right in much of what you say. I am not a progamer, I just watch a ton of them and streamers occasionlly as well. I have never gotten past Diamond on any account. However, there are a few things to clarify. I didn't mean 3-hatch before pool, but playing with the intention of obtaining a fast 3rd hatch - and thereby not building pool first before the 2nd hatch. Maybe I'm wrong about this one as well - these are just my observations from watching GSL / WCS, etc, and at least on the low-level on which I play, going pool and gas first into zergling speed is an instant secure against reaper aggression. However, I may be wrong about the details of these things. I just don't see very many zerglings being made early on and every one of them being given a micro command. I would propose a modest change, if any: +25 gas cost, -25 mineral cost to reapers. (25M/75G) This would make reactor openings much more likely, keep their cost like an observer in keeping with the role, and still keep the unit's effective worth about par.
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I don't think the collosus buff is enough to let protoss play stable games against hydra bane on several of the maps in the current pool. Im not sure what kind of change is in order but I'm convinced protoss is in a really bad spot right now when it comes to pvz.
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interesting how all these community posts are always Z and Ts butting heads with little talk about protoss. I guess it makes sense this time because a lot of changes are target towards Z and T but...
I don't think the colossus change will buff P vs T much as people say, marauders get a slight buff in this case. It will probably help a little especially in smaller numbers which is good!
People who say that the buff won't help vs. Zerg because banelings are not light don't realize that sentries still exist in the game. I think I'm going to love going colossus/stalker/sentry and just force field out all the banes. gonna be fun to try this style instead of just rushing Templar every game. ^_^
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Why not revert the baneling health boost? Is there still a reason for it? Adepts were nerfed, Tankivac is gone, Widows always will 1 shot it. The only difference now is going through with the colossi buff this could make it more useful vs Zerg. Granted what YoungJiddle said does make sense but what about lingbane ultralisk? and hydras
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On July 16 2017 11:13 Ryu3600 wrote:
Why not revert the baneling health boost? Is there still a reason for it? Adepts were nerfed, Tankivac is gone, Widows always will 1 shot it. The only difference now is going through with the colossi buff this could make it more useful vs Zerg. Granted what YoungJiddle said does make sense but what about lingbane ultralisk? and hydras
KR Terrans got too good at target-firing banes, so they buffed bane health. ByuN, Inno, etc, massacre banes as it is so I can't imagine Blizzard reverting bane health anytime soon.
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On July 16 2017 11:13 Ryu3600 wrote:
Why not revert the baneling health boost? Is there still a reason for it? Adepts were nerfed, Tankivac is gone, Widows always will 1 shot it. The only difference now is going through with the colossi buff this could make it more useful vs Zerg. Granted what YoungJiddle said does make sense but what about lingbane ultralisk? and hydras
I could be wrong, but i believe its the new siege tank buffs that would make siege tanks completely obliterate clump of banelings easily.
A bunch of siege tanks + marines would be really hard to kill.
The baneling hp buff happened at the same time as the siege tank buff.
I could be wrong though, im not a pro at starcraft2 number crunching.
The unit that needs a buff on the protoss side is the stalker, without a question. A decent buff to stalker core stats with a little bit longer blink cooldown could be a decent idea. You dont want to bring back blink stalker all-in era, so if you buff stalkers you would have to nerf blink in some way a little bit.
Stalkers would be much better after that against ling/bane based armies, compared to adepts/zealots.
Right now, the issue is that stalkers are just bad against everything zerg, except maybe roaches but then theres ravagers....
In my opinion, the core units for each race should be their all around range units. Hydras for zerg, Stalkers for protoss, Marine/medivac for terran.
Right now, marines and hydras are in a good spot, but stalkers are really lacking, mainly due to the strength or warpgates and blink; their stats really suffer for it.
I always dreamed of a world where protoss would have a very solid all around unit such as dragoon, but it could only be made from normal gateways; not warpgates. It would give a reason for protoss to morph warpgates back to normal gateways; the ability that literally NEVER got used.
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Warp-gate is an upgrade, of course it should be better than normal gateways
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I think that would be a very bad idea to nerf reapers and mech.
As you can see only the best Korean programers know how to use reapers ( I think only Byun knows how to use them verry effectively, even Maru and Innovation are not very good at it )
Only Gumiho plays mech so far with some success.
For the foreigners scene, you can see that is always the same players : Kelhazur, Special, Uthermal but they do not use them as good as Koreans and that is way harder for Terrans.
So if they nerfed Terran, imo they wouldn't be any Terrans in WCS.
That's a very bad idea.
And to come back on reapers case, when you see the micro and how Byun anticipates the movements of zerglings with so well placed mines, even zerg players can admit he is the only one who knows do this.
When I am watching GSL games, I heard all the time Tasteless and Artosis admire how Byun is a genius with reapers and miens placement, and saying he is the ONLY ONE who does that.
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Even Byun said in his last GSL interview that reapers currently are too strong.
And most of the terrans use these 3rax reaper builds ... just because Byun is the best in abusing and micro the reapers doesn't mean the other terrans can't win games with abusing the reapers, too
And for now there wasn't mentioned that Mech should be nerfed ... only the raven, but they are part of bio-tank armies too, not only Mech, so i wouldn't consider a slight raven nerf as a Mech nerf ...
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On July 16 2017 05:17 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 03:34 Solar424 wrote:On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth. A foreigner-only tournament gives Zerg it's first Premier win in 10 months and suddenly it's a problem. Was Zerg not winning any finals a problem when soO was in consecutive GSL finals and Solar in SSL finals? Or Nerchio and Serral? Because obviously those four players encompass the entirety of the Zerg race, played perfect games, and embodied the complete fulfillment of Zerg potential. A stupid argument got a stupid answer today. Hopefully the Zerg whiners will stop bitching about not having won a final in forever. Nah, the new whine will just be "Zerg only won 1 final in 2017, need buffs." Your post makes that clear enough. So sick of the endless crying. If it isn't Zerg needing buffs, it's Terran, if it isn't Terran it's Protoss. Or all three at the same time, because all of them are clearly underpowered against all the other races, simultaneously. Somehow. BW has it's own problems ofc, but one thing it got right was no balance changes, ever.
You're the one starting the whine with "it was a ZvZ".
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Just let the game be. This constant adjusting only hurts players and player creativity and this whole Blizzard's approach to balancing is kind of disgusting.
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Hello everyone!
Serious: is there a way to buff colossi versus zerg, but not versus terran? IMHO TvP seems ok and protoss are fine with archons and storms (rarelly, disruptors). And it's more fun then a-moving colossi .
Maybe you can solve PvZ mass hydra-bane problem by nerfing/debuffing HYDRAS, and not by buffing protoss?
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Less serious:
@
Colossi aren't used at pro level, we will BUFF them;
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Ravens are not used at pro level, we will NERF them;
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TvZ has an alternative to 1rax opener, that if both T and Z played correctly, transitions into macro game -> NERF Terran;
(why not nerf PvT 1 base pylon-oracle rush then? It has same mechanics: aggressive opening that goes into macro game).
Also: if you are watching not only Byun's 3 rax reaper, it's totally defendable. It can 100% back-fire to terran. Watch [not Byun/Innovation] 3rax and fail, you would think 3rr is bad.
PS(totally not serious): looking at amount of ZvZ(50% of bracket) and ZvX(rest of the bracket) at wcs and soO in every Kr final... maybe you should consider nerfing [not terran]? :D Just open previous patch notes and count how many nerfs terran got(some units were nerfed several times) and how many buffs zerg got (pretty much EVERY zerg unit got a buff), Protosses got equal ammount of buffs and nerfs and still win Kappa
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Did Avilo brainwash all terrans players? How can you people literaly think that nerfing reapers and ravens will cause Terran to not be competitive anymore? How can you think you know better about dealing with 3 rax reaper than code S zergs? How can you literaly think that terran is the only race that requires micro? Jesus Christ, just stop this madness.
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On July 16 2017 21:01 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 05:17 pvsnp wrote:On July 16 2017 03:34 Solar424 wrote:On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth. A foreigner-only tournament gives Zerg it's first Premier win in 10 months and suddenly it's a problem. Was Zerg not winning any finals a problem when soO was in consecutive GSL finals and Solar in SSL finals? Or Nerchio and Serral? Because obviously those four players encompass the entirety of the Zerg race, played perfect games, and embodied the complete fulfillment of Zerg potential. A stupid argument got a stupid answer today. Hopefully the Zerg whiners will stop bitching about not having won a final in forever. Nah, the new whine will just be "Zerg only won 1 final in 2017, need buffs." Your post makes that clear enough. So sick of the endless crying. If it isn't Zerg needing buffs, it's Terran, if it isn't Terran it's Protoss. Or all three at the same time, because all of them are clearly underpowered against all the other races, simultaneously. Somehow. BW has it's own problems ofc, but one thing it got right was no balance changes, ever. You're the one starting the whine with "it was a ZvZ".
........and the Valencia finals were not a ZvZ? Go on, show me the ridiculous bias, the subjective interpretation, the myopic perspective in my OP that makes it "whining" instead of an objective and universally acknowledged fact. I even added the qualifier "for what it's worth" to dissuade stupid responses, but apparently to no avail.
Though, if "Mommy, he started it first!" is your response there's probably no point in discussing anything.
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On July 17 2017 01:30 xTJx wrote:
Did Avilo brainwash all terrans players? How can you people literaly think that nerfing reapers and ravens will cause Terran to not be competitive anymore? How can you think you know better about dealing with 3 rax reaper than code S zergs? How can you literaly think that terran is the only race that requires micro? Jesus Christ, just stop this madness.
Terran is just the race that whines the most, Avilo is just the extreme example of that. If Blizzard doesn't touch MMMM then Terran will be just as viable as before.
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On July 16 2017 12:23 Snakestyle1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 11:13 Ryu3600 wrote:
Why not revert the baneling health boost? Is there still a reason for it? Adepts were nerfed, Tankivac is gone, Widows always will 1 shot it. The only difference now is going through with the colossi buff this could make it more useful vs Zerg. Granted what YoungJiddle said does make sense but what about lingbane ultralisk? and hydras I could be wrong, but i believe its the new siege tank buffs that would make siege tanks completely obliterate clump of banelings easily. A bunch of siege tanks + marines would be really hard to kill. The baneling hp buff happened at the same time as the siege tank buff. I could be wrong though, im not a pro at starcraft2 number crunching. The unit that needs a buff on the protoss side is the stalker, without a question. A decent buff to stalker core stats with a little bit longer blink cooldown could be a decent idea. You dont want to bring back blink stalker all-in era, so if you buff stalkers you would have to nerf blink in some way a little bit. Stalkers would be much better after that against ling/bane based armies, compared to adepts/zealots. Right now, the issue is that stalkers are just bad against everything zerg, except maybe roaches but then theres ravagers.... In my opinion, the core units for each race should be their all around range units. Hydras for zerg, Stalkers for protoss, Marine/medivac for terran. Right now, marines and hydras are in a good spot, but stalkers are really lacking, mainly due to the strength or warpgates and blink; their stats really suffer for it. I always dreamed of a world where protoss would have a very solid all around unit such as dragoon, but it could only be made from normal gateways; not warpgates. It would give a reason for protoss to morph warpgates back to normal gateways; the ability that literally NEVER got used.
you said a lot of rubbish I think but stalkers do need a buff, but the real problem is that they are armored... and +armored units rekt them like buffed tanks two shooting them, new cyclones making shoot and back up micro useless, ect... on ladder as protoss I just go super early robo because of terran cheeses, which there are many varieties.
stalkers are in the role of cheap anti air vs T.. and all around are bad vs Z (in this meta). but they have to be balanced carefully because of PvP, blink, and warpgate.
it's a mess lol.
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On July 17 2017 01:52 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 21:01 Tyrhanius wrote:On July 16 2017 05:17 pvsnp wrote:On July 16 2017 03:34 Solar424 wrote:On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth. A foreigner-only tournament gives Zerg it's first Premier win in 10 months and suddenly it's a problem. Was Zerg not winning any finals a problem when soO was in consecutive GSL finals and Solar in SSL finals? Or Nerchio and Serral? Because obviously those four players encompass the entirety of the Zerg race, played perfect games, and embodied the complete fulfillment of Zerg potential. A stupid argument got a stupid answer today. Hopefully the Zerg whiners will stop bitching about not having won a final in forever. Nah, the new whine will just be "Zerg only won 1 final in 2017, need buffs." Your post makes that clear enough. So sick of the endless crying. If it isn't Zerg needing buffs, it's Terran, if it isn't Terran it's Protoss. Or all three at the same time, because all of them are clearly underpowered against all the other races, simultaneously. Somehow. BW has it's own problems ofc, but one thing it got right was no balance changes, ever. You're the one starting the whine with "it was a ZvZ". ........and the Valencia finals were not a ZvZ? Go on, show me the ridiculous bias, the subjective interpretation, the myopic perspective in my OP that makes it "whining" instead of an objective and universally acknowledged fact. I even added the qualifier "for what it's worth" to dissuade stupid responses, but apparently to no avail. Though, if "Mommy, he started it first!" is your response there's probably no point in discussing anything.
And Zerg haven't won any of the last 15 premier tournament isn't a fact ? No win for 10 months ? No race has never stopped winning for this long.
You're mad when people counter argument with you while you just choose the facts you want, ignore the others and create your own story of Zerg doing really great recently while it's not the case.
If you not ready to discuss with people who has different points of view without martyring yourself, and act like a drama queen, don't start the the balance discussion, you're ridiculous.
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EPT
