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The fact that 3 rax reaper openings are a viable option is already ridiculous design wise. And the trampoline grenade has nothing to do in a RTS.
The reaper was fine in HOTS. It's a scout unit that can be annoying if properly micro-ed, but that wouldn't ever deal a whole lot of damage on its own. It was a well designed early harass unit : low risk, low reward (appart from scouting capabilities).
The reaper shouldn't have the grenade, but an upgrade to give it viability in the later stages of the game. Maybe something synergizing well with the ghost's toolkit to give the options to bio player to have a late game bio comps (MMMreaper ghost or something) that don't rely on massing liberators and doomdroping + lib siege.
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Once Blizzard tries out their proposed Colossus changes, I'm almost certain they'll change their mind. We took this into test and it was a joke. There was never any choice between going Disruptor or Colossus in any of these games - disruptors were not an option due to their huge unpredictability and micro cost.
The damage nerf vs. armor for the Colossus is what really sends it to the trashbin, and for good. While it's "still" good at clearing out marines, it never needed help there. Marauders, Stalkers, Roaches, Ravagers, Liberators, Corruptors, Immortals, Banelings all pummel a Colossus-based army unless the other player makes a series of micro mistakes.
Units like Marauders, Stalkers, and Roaches provide a cheap and massable counter to mid-game Colossus armies, effectively countering them for half the cost, and now taking reduced damage. The change just doesn't work by any measure, even if it sounds good. I had no clue it would be this bad.
Of course, this is just the experience of me and a few friends, none of us professional, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.
The Reaper issue seems like there's an obvious fix in the combat regen or the price, most likely the cost. Blizzard would need to introduce an entirely new shared cooldown mechanic to keep the stats/cost the same, and not have it turn the GSL into dull repetition while we wait for Gumiho to build tanks.
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I am pretty sure that Terran is not the race that needs further nefing.
1. Taking away the reaper option makes the nearly unbearable TvZ situation even more dreadful (from T perspective that is). In combination with the maps... Z has it easy enough to predict everything coming from T anf the grenade nerf is quite enough imo.
2. Nerf the Raven again? Why, are Carriers+ Storm, Vipers and Hydras (not to forget the speed Corroptors) not a simple enough hard counter?
3. Buffing the Colossi, because the Hydra got too strong and thus weakening bio...again?
Maybe you want to look into that masty Medivacboost again, why not double the cd as well? And I think Hellbats are too cheap. Why not get rid of thatsplash damage and make it cost gas...lets say 25? And Yeah you could actually reduce Marinedamage by one, so that the rest of the 100 apm - Goldzergs can get into Masters too. *thumbs up*
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Lurker and cyclone are in awkward position.
I haven't seen them much lately.
|
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results?
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On July 15 2017 23:44 seemsgood wrote:
Lurker and cyclone are in awkward position.
I haven't seen them much lately.
i've seen lots of Cyclones in the GSL.
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On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results?
Hello,
i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post.
First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening.
Here are some facts:
1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool.
2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural.
3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong.
Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin
4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time.
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its pretty sad that i'm closing in on 30 years old... and i'm excited about the War Chest Announcement. 
On July 14 2017 14:04 jpg06051992 wrote:
"Increase the Reaper’s cost to 75 minerals / 50 Vespene gas. This would make it harder for the Reaper user to transition into a normal game after a Reaper rush."
This is the change that should go through imo, make them more of an investment, harder to mass. Don't cut their balls off, they are finally a strong unit that has some type of use past mere scouting, but they should absolutely be harder to mass for how strong they are.
after watching more GSL and tournament games i think you are right. this is the best option out of the choices Blizzard provides.
so i vote for :"Increase the Reaper’s cost to 75 minerals / 50 Vespene gas. This would make it harder for the Reaper user to transition into a normal game after a Reaper rush."
please ignore this post below.
On July 13 2017 12:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i vote for weakening the Reapers KD8 charge AND adjusting Combat Drugs so that it does not work if the Reaper recently attacked a unit.
i changed my mind.
the best thing to do would be to totally redesign the Reaper from the ground up. The Reaper is an early game spell caster with bizarre spell effects that makes it more like a Red Alert 3 unit than a Starcraft unit. However, this redesign is not an option Blizzard is providing us.
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How come making them 2 supply wasn't discussed by the way?
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On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time.
Nailed it.
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On July 15 2017 17:08 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2017 06:12 DomeGetta wrote:On July 13 2017 07:45 hiroshOne wrote:There is new Community update on battle.net: Hey everyone. We’ve been seeing your feedback on the forums and elsewhere over the past few weeks and wanted to make an effort this week to provide more insight into our thoughts. These thoughts range from less discussed units like the Colossus, to more common topics like Reapers and Mech. In all of this, we’re making an effort to be conservative with making changes in an effort to bring greater stability to promote mastery. With that in mind, let’s discuss these topics. ReaperRecently, we’ve been receiving feedback regarding Reapers openings. We have some changes we’d like to test, but before we get to them we want to clarify what our intended role for the Reaper should be. Reapers should be good for scouting, and through tactical use of their KD8 charge be a viable but risky rush opener when made in large quantities. However, in the TvZ matchup we are seeing numerous Reapers being used as a general opener that has a bit too clean of a transition to normal play for Terrans. While this strategy requires a lot of skill to execute perfectly, we think that amassing larger numbers of Reapers is too safe for how much threat they pose. Currently, we are thinking of the following possible options: - Increase the Reaper’s cost to 75 minerals / 50 Vespene gas. This would make it harder for the Reaper user to transition into a normal game after a Reaper rush.
- Reduce the Reaper’s KD8 Charge damage from 10 to 5. This is a direct nerf to the damage output of Reapers, especially to small and fragile units like Zerglings.
- Adjusting the Reaper’s Combat Drugs so that it would also not heal if the Reaper recently attacked. This would result in Reapers being more fragile in long running fights with an opponent which could encourage a Reaper user to back off and let them heal to full more often.
We are planning to implement Reaper changes during the period between IEM Season XII – Shanghai and GSL vs. the World. Terran MechRecently at high levels in Korea we have been seeing a relatively new form of mech play appearing in TvZ and performing well. We would like to continue to observe how it continues to play out first before stepping in and making changes here. This includes keeping an eye on its historic predator, the Swarm Host. Currently it has not been as effective in the Korean scene as elsewhere so we are wondering if there are regional differences in meta at play here. RavenMass Raven strategies have shown up infrequently in high level play. However, we believe the playstyle of mass Raven could be problematic for ladder level play. We are currently thinking of increasing its supply count from 2 to 3, which would bring it in line with other tech air units like the Banshee and Viper. This should have limited impact at professional levels of play and when using smaller counts of Ravens, while making mass Raven style easier to counter. ColossusIn high level play we have not been seeing much Colossus use, even in situations where it seems like the Colossus should be viable. We think this is partially due to the Colossus not having a sharp enough identity, so we want to explore changing the Colossus from a general purpose splash damage unit into an anti-light splash damage unit. Our current thinking is to change its weapon from doing 12 damage flat to 10 + 5 light. Ideally this would also make the differences between Protoss’s splash damage options more clear. Disruptors have high burst damage and work especially well vs low mobility units, the Colossus is good for sustained damage vs light enemies, and High Templars are a more general purpose splash damage role. This change would likely impact the current pro-level PvZ and PvT metas which involves heavy Hydralisk/Zergling and Marine usage respectively. While we want to give Protoss a new option, we don’t want Colossi to be the only build choice so we will have to be careful with this change. Please feel free to let us know your thoughts on these topics and provide any feedback on the proposed changes. Original link : https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20757617408 This is a depressing and unfortunately recurring type of response from blizzard. It was pointed out numerous times back from the ro16 in code S that Terran was doing literally NOTHING but 3 rax reaper vs. Zerg - then we got to the finals and Gumiho did his mech. So - issue: too much 3 rax reaper Snap response - nerf the opening out of viability completely. No one stopped for a minute to think about the reason that Terran is doing this build as a standard opening - let's not worry about that at all and just focus immediately on patching! Bio terrans are opening this way because it is literally 1 of 2 ways to open safely and use bio (helion / banshee is really only borderline safe - unless you also SCV scout to make sure it's not a full retard ravager rush). I'm not a fan at all of the reaper openings - but I'm also not a fan of the equivalent bullshit that zerg has in the form of the 1 base ravager push. The queen buff (AGAIN for the how many fucks time) that made them outrange liberators and kill medevacs from laughable distances totally removed the 2-1-1 meta from an option other than using it after you've cheesed 10 games in a row (see both series of Dark vs Maru in ro16 code S). You cannot 3 cc off reaper or otherwise without going full retard where you will die to a number of zerg all ins (ravager 1 base - nydus 2 base - ling/bane 1 base and even certain overlord drop builds with queen/ling). You also can't open "safely" or the zerg can 3 base mass queen to max drones and free hive tech - yes BL/infestor is not the same as it use to be - but zerg hive tech without harassment can still be played in turtle mode never leave creep maxxing on corrupter/ultra/infestor which a late game army for terran cannot trade with on creep - If they are going to nerf literally 1 out of the 2 aggressive openers for Terran - they can't do nothing to do zerg - ravagers requiring lair or something that delays that push so at least one of the bullshit options is gone as well. if you're having trouble thinking of viable aggressive openings in tvz ill help you out a lil~ proxy -> 2 rax marine into banshee 4 rax marine 1 rax reaper into cc 3 rax reaper into -> 2 medivac marine drop 2 medivac 16 reaper 3cc 2 ebay 5 rax reaper cc first into -> 2 factory cyclone hellbat 1 rax reaper/marine expand into -> hellion banshee hellion raven 4 hellion drop widow mine drop into tank drop 2 mine drop with 4 hellion runby 2/1/1 -> into 4 medivac 1/1 timing -> into 2 tank/ marine drop -> no reactor on starport fast hellbat/marine all in -> into 5rax (2cc) marine mine all in -> into 3 medivac 1 mine 3cc 1 ebay 6 hellbat 3 marine 1 medivac 1 liberator 8 hellbat 1 cloak banshee 2cc liberator range 2 fac cyclone hellbat aggressive mech transition followups -> speed banshee 2 thor drop 4 cyclone hellbat timing with +1 im sure i missed a few but im not a terran player and yes ravager all ins can kill a terran if they dont defend properly but if it doesnt win you the game you're just dead; with reapers you can do 0 damage other than forcing lings and still be ahead
1. 11/11 can work if totally unscouted AND the zerg isn't going pool first - otherwise its automatic gg
2. You listed the build they are talking about getting rid of rofl.
3. Third build I already addressed as the last remaining standard aggro opener.
4 . 2/1/1 is completely gone from pro play based on the queen buff.
5. Hellbat banshee builds get stomped by mass queen
6 . Yes - gumiho did make this work for 2 series in code s - countering mech has been figured out by zerg on Eu for months.
So your only valid point that I didn't already list is that 11/11 is still a thing - which it is - so you are saying 11/11 (which will get completely destroyed by the 1 base ravager) is good enough and that the reaper opening should be gone? LOL
Sounds good - 11/11 (and lose to pool first) or helion banshee every game (which I will add gets crushed by the 1 base ravager opener and if multi/micro'd well by zerg gets held with minimal if any damage)
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is 11/11 the build where you kill one of your own scvs and then build 2 barracks?
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On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time.
Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf.
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On July 16 2017 02:14 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time. Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf.
How on earth any of the things you just rambled here has anything to do with my post?
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On July 16 2017 02:30 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 02:14 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time. Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf. How on earth any of the things you just rambled here has anything to do with my post?
Some main ideas from your post:
It's nearly impossible to come out even or ahead vs. 3 rax reaper.
Zerg micro doesn't reward enough.
Main idea of my post:
That's a bunch of bullshit?
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Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth.
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On July 16 2017 02:33 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 02:30 Aegwynn wrote:On July 16 2017 02:14 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
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Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
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Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
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Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time. Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf. How on earth any of the things you just rambled here has anything to do with my post? Some main ideas from your post: It's nearly impossible to come out even or ahead vs. 3 rax reaper. Zerg micro doesn't reward enough. Main idea of my post: That's a bunch of bullshit?
And all million other things you wrote there?
First one is true at top level at certain maps. I was just correcting a misconception about roach warren vs reapers and there is nothing wrong in what i said.
Second one is not an idea its a fact so it can't be a bullshit.
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On July 16 2017 02:45 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2017 02:33 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 02:30 Aegwynn wrote:On July 16 2017 02:14 DomeGetta wrote:On July 16 2017 00:44 Aegwynn wrote:On July 15 2017 23:55 KR_4EVR wrote:
About the Reapers: Let me point out the obvious things nobody has cared to point out yet:
__________________________________________________________________________
Early Game:
Protoss is perfectly fine. The adept and Mothership ore have no problem zoning the Reaper out beyond a scout or two, or 1 probe (maybe). Most people get this.
Zerg only loses if they are greedy and don't go pool first. (In 95% of the pro TvZ matches I've watched, GSL and otherwise, if a Zerg lost to reaper opening, it was because they planned on going into greedy 3-hatch instead of pool and plenty of queens+zerglings first. Or were on 2-hatch, but weren't willing to give up econ. But guess what? what if Terran went 2CC before barracks? How many times would you lose in that case to someone who went pool first?
__________________________________________________________________________
Mid-game:
I would like to point out the next obvious thing: Zergs don't make a roach warren early enough against reaper openings. It should be once you see ~ 3 reapers, throw down roach warren. That, or are still droning when they should be adding metabolic boost and more zerglings.
____________________________________________________________________________
Final point:
If Byun (who is obviously the one being complained against most) microed every zergling and baneling like he does reapers, you would soon be complaining about the AOE of baneling self-destruct when it is manually cast. Just face it: he is very good at micro, and your average zerg is not
My question for you zerg deniers is this: when are you going to learn to use your 500+ Apm to do something useful like microing every zergling and queen instead of spamming the drone key?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Extra question (unrelated):
Why are we seeing small-history or outdated zergs (TLO, Bly, Stephano, etc.) dominate quite far into Premier foreign matches, while mainstay protosses (Harstem, ShoWtime, etc) are just not there or have terrible results? Hello, i don't know what level you are but there are straight wrong things in your post. First of all i didn't understand what you were trying to tell about early zvt opening. Here are some facts: 1-) Nobody goest 3 hatch before pool. 2-) Fun fact: going pool first doesn't help countering reapers AT ALL. In most cases hatch-gas-pool standart opening are better because of double queen timing and creep on natural. 3-) For this one i don't blame you because even some progamers still think roach warren counters reapers which is totally wrong. Roach warren response to reapers has considerably lower win rates compared to mass ling counter if you actually watch the scene. Making roaches lose you the game instantly because of economic reasons. Even if reapers don't do any damage to you you lose because you make useless slow roaches and cripple your own economy. The few times we see zerg manages to pass mid game on equal terms are when they actually don't build any roach warren. Last example was the korean zerg Penguin 4-)So you think it is just coincidence that only Terran players have good micro? or all the zerg progamers are garbage? For all 7 years? Simple fact: microing ling-bane doesn't reward even as quarter as a marine micro. Ranged units beats melee units at top level, it is as simple as that. This is how the game is made. So zerg players need to focus on producing more and spreading creep. We will probably see if Google can do the new AI, terran will beat Zerg every single time. Straight wrong aye? Watch any Tvz where soO plays vs. 3 rax reaper and tell me it's a broken build. He absolutely stomped Maru in code S - 3 rax reaper is not a broken build - the reason it's so popular is because there isn't a better option - that's the thing that needs to be addressed - I'm OK with them nerfing it out of use because it's really not fun to watch or play - but they can't do that without providing some alternative or an equal nerf to zerg. Presently zerg has more options for early game aggression and a much better late game tech tree - every single time we've seen this dynamic in sc2 history it ends up with getting fixed but only after months and months of terran genocide in the pro tournaments. Zerg units can't be micro'd yah? Sounds eerily similar to what zergs were whining when they nerfed widow mines in hots... wait what happened then? They learned how and it became disgustingly op to go bio vs ling/bling. Let's not forget that banelings are stronger now / queens are stronger now / a ravager exists ... yah reapers have grenades though better nerf. How on earth any of the things you just rambled here has anything to do with my post? Some main ideas from your post: It's nearly impossible to come out even or ahead vs. 3 rax reaper. Zerg micro doesn't reward enough. Main idea of my post: That's a bunch of bullshit? And all million other things you wrote there? First one is true at top level at certain maps. I was just correcting a misconception about roach warren vs reapers and there is nothing wrong in what i said. Second one is not an idea its a fact so it can't be a bullshit.
LOL love this logic tho.
I'm not disputing that Terran units don't have a higher skill ceiling for micro than zerg units - what I'm saying is that using that as a reason to nerf Terran is a bullshit. Zerg has 100% better macro mechanic than Terran and better late game tech - so to you it would be fair if they also had units that could be micro'd to as high potential as Terran units? Each race has stronger and weaker points - which is obvious and shouldn't need pointing out. Being able to take a max fight late game with one unit comp already with an edge vs Terran and then instantly remax on a totally different tech tree that counters what they are stuck in more than compensates for not being able to stim and split away from splash damage (which I might add - you can definitely split your lings and banes off of widow mines). These trade offs exist in every match-up. The only thing keeping the matchup at balance presently is the fact that Zerg has to prepare for this opening and can't yolo greed every game they don't feel like cheesing to an unbeatable late game army.
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On July 16 2017 02:45 pvsnp wrote:
Well, Valencia finals are ZvZ for what it's worth.
Yup - top 3 even. Also 8 / 16 in ro16. Wonder why the Terran's didn't just 3 rax reaper their way to victory? Being that it's impossible to counter and all that. Must be because they aren't Byun. I have a great idea - let's take away Byun's chances at winning also and provide no alternative.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
