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Lets try to explain the world in a few words to blunder:
1. Broodwar is the reference. Neither me nor you can do anything about it. It just is.
2. I don't want SC2 to be exactly like BW, but I compare what is bad in SC2 with the reference.
3. If you don't understand the general logic with timers and the problems that that creates, you can't blame that on me.
4. What is less stagnating for you seems to be not appealing for a majority of players who have turned their back towards SC2 after LOTV was released and now play mobas instead, or in case of koreans, the reference.
5. It is not my obligation to figure out what goes wrong with this game, there are people who are getting paid for that, I still try to contribute, this however is and can only be limited for the named reasons. The goal of my suggestions is to exactly flip the entire game design around, as the current status wont allow anything else than shifting problems back and forth, what the past has proven. Guess what, 3-4 years ago people where responding similar things to me, showed that they understand really nothing.
I bet my pants that blunder is one or more of three things, and I am really good at sensing stuff like that:
a) Terran player
b) Avilo fan
c) Avilo himself
Hence he probably felt obligated to respond me with made up nonsense, as I didn't write pro terran and did not emphasize how up Terran is. Probably it is time for a new 30+ pages dwf balance whine on the main page, lol.
Anyway I wish happy race up/op discussions, it has put the game where it is now. Anything else seems to vastly overtax a good chunk of the the guys here.
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On July 19 2017 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 21:46 Foxxan wrote:
Yeah, and? It doesnt proof anythjing because.
In general, how many rts games have good unit control? Sc2 has the best one and that says alot.
In general, how many games use hardcounters in their games? Like every one?
Balancing a game around all-ins and cheeses and hardcounters just screams for unhealhty gameplay + terrible balance in the end aswell.
My point is. THEY ALL DO IT WRONG! all of them? nah. they are not "wrong" they are just unwilling to dedicate resources to keeping the balance right many months and years after release. Companies that stick with it can get a game close to balanced. balancing a diverse race RTS game at even 1 level of difficulty is a tough problem. New micro techniques get developed by dedicated players as the game ages. the stuff Byun does with Reapers was considered not possible not too long ago. Also, micro techniques get executed more cleanly and consistently as the game ages. this also happened with Brood War and every other diverse race RTS game with a strong enough following that players spent countless hours developing new micro techniques months after the game's official release Usually what happens is.. you just end up with an imbalanced game. your perception that "everyone does it wrong" speaks to the brutal difficulty of balancing a game.
I dont think you seem to understand. I cant care less if their rts game isnt balanced after 3months.
What iam saying is wrong is all the things i wrote, not just balance. Hardcounters, bad unit control, boring interractions. Timers.
All this contributes to a hard to impossible game to balance while at the same time they are just terrible boring to play aswell.
All rts reveloperse do it so bloody wrong. Iam done with this conversation cuz u will anyway just start to talk about something else.
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On July 19 2017 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 21:46 Foxxan wrote:
Yeah, and? It doesnt proof anythjing because.
In general, how many rts games have good unit control? Sc2 has the best one and that says alot.
In general, how many games use hardcounters in their games? Like every one?
Balancing a game around all-ins and cheeses and hardcounters just screams for unhealhty gameplay + terrible balance in the end aswell.
My point is. THEY ALL DO IT WRONG! all of them? nah. they are not "wrong" they are just unwilling to dedicate resources to keeping the balance right many months and years after release. Companies that stick with it can get a game close to balanced. balancing a diverse race RTS game at even 1 level of difficulty is a tough problem. New micro techniques get developed by dedicated players as the game ages. the stuff Byun does with Reapers was considered not possible not too long ago. Also, micro techniques get executed more cleanly and consistently as the game ages. this also happened with Brood War and every other diverse race RTS game with a strong enough following that players spent countless hours developing new micro techniques months after the game's official release Usually what happens is.. you just end up with an imbalanced game. your perception that "everyone does it wrong" speaks to the brutal difficulty of balancing a game.
I can get behind a lot of that. If you look at speedrunning or any RTS played at an extremely high level the games go from working as intended on a casual level to "holy sweet mother this is so horrifically broken" very quickly.
For SC2 I don't think it's as broken as some make it out to be, and it's okay if certain things here and there don't "work as intended" as long as they are fun, interactive, and not completely dominating. With each new thing getting broken I think the players and devs adjust their view on what constitutes as broken or intended gameplay, too. Everyone levels up a bit along with the meta or whatever.
For smart firing units like Reapers and Marines and Tanks they quickly, for me, reach that "ooh, no that doesn't seem right" feeling, but since Medankivacs aren't around the Tanks took a big step back from that line and went back to doing their regular job. Reapers with their grenades were going nuts, since there are so many things, stats, movement and abilities, to modify that I think a lot of solid solutions could be found and it's just a matter of picking the best changes which they're already doing.
Personally I prefer changes to unit stats lately for early-mid game army units and don't like resource or supply changes as much, maybe it has something to do with the amount of development the game has gone through. Like putting a new carburetor on the engine as opposed to buying/building a whole new engine or body, I just want to tweak it to run better, not do an overhaul at this stage. For late game units I'm more open to anything, curious how others feel about it with regards to the, idk how to put it, "state of brokenness" (beyond-mature developmental stage?) we've reached.
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Actually nobody has mentioned how maps grow once a game gets to this stage. A whole beast in itself, but I'll just add that I wonder how crucial Blizzard sees new map developments compared to core game design. It seems like they put it far below everything else lately and I would love to see that start to change after we (hopefully, eventually) go into a very stable game state unit-wise. Kinda here but not really there so I'll just... set this here for later, I suppose.
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After having used Thors drops for 40+ TvZ games I now know for sure: Thor drops do not counter Swarm Hosts at all. I am not even sure why anyone would think that.
There is only instance where Thor drops work vs Swarm Hosts and that is the opponent go for fast 2-base Swarm Host. In that case Thor dropping actually works.
In all other cases Zerg transition into Swarm Hosts anyway which delays your push by a lot since you need mass hellbats with blueflame to even stand a chance against Swarm Hosts. When you finally have enough hellbats to somewhat protect your tanks and thors Zerg is already at Hive which means SwarmHost/Viper/Hydra/Roach = GG.
Basically people that think Thor dropping counter Swarm Hosts either
a) Have no experience using mech in TvZ or
b) Only think of really fast 2-base into Swarm Hosts opening but forget all more normal Swarm Host strats.
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On July 21 2017 05:24 MockHamill wrote:
After having used Thors drops for 40+ TvZ games I now know for sure: Thor drops do not counter Swarm Hosts at all. I am not even sure why anyone would think that.
There is only instance where Thor drops work vs Swarm Hosts and that is the opponent go for fast 2-base Swarm Host. In that case Thor dropping actually works.
In all other cases Zerg transition into Swarm Hosts anyway which delays your push by a lot since you need mass hellbats with blueflame to even stand a chance against Swarm Hosts. When you finally have enough hellbats to somewhat protect your tanks and thors Zerg is already at Hive which means SwarmHost/Viper/Hydra/Roach = GG.
Basically people that think Thor dropping counter Swarm Hosts either
a) Have no experience using mech in TvZ or
b) Only think of really fast 2-base into Swarm Hosts opening but forget all more normal Swarm Host strats.
The issue with the swarm host is that it's free to use and won't ever die. So the weaknesses of the swarmhosts (multiproned attacks, drops, attacking when the locusts are in CD) can be solved by other units/static D zerg can afford because he's banking money.
The only moments where SH comps are vulnerable are :
- when the zerg first produces the swarmshosts, because he doesn't have the money to have a lot with it
- later in the game if the zerg kept his swarm hosts too long (using 15 SHs to harass, then bank 4000/4000, build a lot of BLs but still have 15x4 pop that aren't corruptors to defend the BLs for instance).
Appart from that, because SH don't ever trade and are free to use, zergs have all the money in the world to produce any unit or static D required to prevent the mech player from exploiting the SH weaknesses.
Hellion drops? I have all the mineral i want, therefore all the spines i want.
Speed banshees? I have all the mineral i want, therefore i have all the spores and queens i want.
Thors drops? I have all the mineral i want, therefore all the lings and queens i want.
Etc.
What most zergs don't understand is that when SH is the first lair tech you use, of course you leave yourself open to a straightforward push. However if you go hydras or mutas first, then build 15-20 SHs to climb up to 200/200, then expand some more and tech up while destroying stuff with locusts, there's no real reason for you not to win.
I like the rythm SH bring to the ZvMech matchup, because against swarmhosts the best option is to be out on the map to force locusts wave. That means it give zergs and option to force the mech player to strat fighting on the map and trading.
However if it actually means "forcing the terran to get out on the map and trading his units while you only trade free units", there's something wrong there.
Either the locusts need to cost some amount of money, either the SHs need to be killable, i don't see any way around it.
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On July 21 2017 05:24 MockHamill wrote:
After having used Thors drops for 40+ TvZ games I now know for sure: Thor drops do not counter Swarm Hosts at all. I am not even sure why anyone would think that.
There is only instance where Thor drops work vs Swarm Hosts and that is the opponent go for fast 2-base Swarm Host. In that case Thor dropping actually works.
Becuause casters had to say something at some point and the first thing they saw was a Korean going for Thor drop with moderate success. And, as you say, it can work.
What actually worked sort of well for me towards the end vs Swarmhosts (in plastic league), was being active and out on the map. With this I had enough vision, map control and preassure on the Z that he cannot sensibly use SHs and I was able to pick them off one by one. However, I haven't seen a swarm host in weeks. It's always ling/bling or roach/raveger, going into hydras/viper. Sometimes, when the game is already won or lost, a Z would go ultras or broodlords, either to finish me off or as last hope. However, it's nothing but eye candy at that point.
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I tend to think that there is something wrong with the SH but i have to say that it's nice to see players and posters think of and try all sorts of different options to solve a problem. It reminds me of the strong blue flame pre nerf for TvT when everyone was coming up with new ways to wall in the mineral line, it felt like the game was evolving in an area where they were forced to and it was a lot of fun.
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have we considered defensive nukes to take out locusts or are we still doing serious suggestions that blizz won't listen to
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Swarmhosts are one of the healthiest units in the game, since they counter the "sit on your ass for 20 minutes and build an unbeatable army" mech style.
No, Zerg does not automatically have infinite minerals just by building swamrhosts. You'd have to leave them alone for 20-30 minutes to let them achieve that. Using swarmhosts will always mean there is also a timing when the zerg is much weaker than the terran because teh locust are on cooldown. It's the terrans job to abuse that timing to make the damage they potentially took from swarmhosts back.
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On July 21 2017 12:38 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I tend to think that there is something wrong with the SH but i have to say that it's nice to see players and posters think of and try all sorts of different options to solve a problem. It reminds me of the strong blue flame pre nerf for TvT when everyone was coming up with new ways to wall in the mineral line, it felt like the game was evolving in an area where they were forced to and it was a lot of fun.
Actually i was thinking about ghosts as a tool to force swarm hosts to trade off. Since the snipe deals enough damage to oneshot a swarmhosts and has no range limitation, it can be fired at swarmhosts closing in to release locusts. And since ghosts now have a decent escape mechanism (cloack + new decent speed), they can run away from the locust wave.
However ghosts have historically been very hard to use with mech without the need to turtle. Mainly because you need a lot of tanks to survive to ground attacks while teching up and producing the costly ghost from a different production building. Also ghosts cost a lot of minerals, meaning you'll have less money to build a lot of hellions to clear the locusts.
I experimented with cyclone/hellbat/ghost/medivacs, but it's way too mineral-intensive.
Just theorycrafting here, but changing the cost of the ghost to 50/150 like the high templar might actually be a good change. Ghosts are underused with bio because of their price, but low mineral/high gaz cost would encourage bio players to build them to spend their gaz surplus, while opening the possibility of dynamic mech + ghost comps, and while also making cancer mass ghost + ranged liberators comps less easy to obtain.
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I would have thought some kind of change to liberators, to allow them in reasonable numbers to kill locusts in the air would be a good change. This way, there is a bit more of a micro battle as the zerg must move forward into tank/thor range with hydras/corruptors to deal with the liberators before the locust wave can be useful.
Although having said that, I won't be convinced SH are a problem until we can see a mech game from GuMiHo where a high level zerg gets them. So far it seems high level Korean zergs don't even bother getting them, so maybe they know something we don't?
I like that Blizzard is looking at the collosus, but it would be nice to see a more major re-design. Personally would love that line attack to be micro-able against, but maybe leave some fire on the ground or something.
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Nah, all the top tier Zergs have no clue and all the bronze-league TL-posters got it right.
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2017 19:04 Azarthis wrote:
I would have thought some kind of change to liberators, to allow them in reasonable numbers to kill locusts in the air would be a good change. This way, there is a bit more of a micro battle as the zerg must move forward into tank/thor range with hydras/corruptors to deal with the liberators before the locust wave can be useful.
Although having said that, I won't be convinced SH are a problem until we can see a mech game from GuMiHo where a high level zerg gets them. So far it seems high level Korean zergs don't even bother getting them, so maybe they know something we don't?
I like that Blizzard is looking at the collosus, but it would be nice to see a more major re-design. Personally would love that line attack to be micro-able against, but maybe leave some fire on the ground or something.
Although I've yet to see them vs Gumiho successfuly, they are seeing use in Korea. Solar recently used them and won vs Maru's mech, he tried to counter them with speed banshees and it went prity poorly, Solar killed countless adons and production buildings in Maru's a main with them.
I did also see some of the foreigners try them vs Gumiho but both times he managed to put pressure on riggt as Zerg made the transition, punish them and than do an Allin push shortly after, but I think the qaulity of swarmhosts play was prity poor compared to Solar's.
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On July 20 2017 00:38 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 19 2017 21:46 Foxxan wrote:
Yeah, and? It doesnt proof anythjing because.
In general, how many rts games have good unit control? Sc2 has the best one and that says alot.
In general, how many games use hardcounters in their games? Like every one?
Balancing a game around all-ins and cheeses and hardcounters just screams for unhealhty gameplay + terrible balance in the end aswell.
My point is. THEY ALL DO IT WRONG! all of them? nah. they are not "wrong" they are just unwilling to dedicate resources to keeping the balance right many months and years after release. Companies that stick with it can get a game close to balanced. balancing a diverse race RTS game at even 1 level of difficulty is a tough problem. New micro techniques get developed by dedicated players as the game ages. the stuff Byun does with Reapers was considered not possible not too long ago. Also, micro techniques get executed more cleanly and consistently as the game ages. this also happened with Brood War and every other diverse race RTS game with a strong enough following that players spent countless hours developing new micro techniques months after the game's official release Usually what happens is.. you just end up with an imbalanced game. your perception that "everyone does it wrong" speaks to the brutal difficulty of balancing a game. I dont think you seem to understand. I cant care less if their rts game isnt balanced after 3months. What iam saying is wrong is all the things i wrote, not just balance. Hardcounters, bad unit control, boring interractions. Timers. All this contributes to a hard to impossible game to balance while at the same time they are just terrible boring to play aswell. All rts reveloperse do it so bloody wrong. Iam done with this conversation cuz u will anyway just start to talk about something else.
your conclusion is everyone is doing everything wrong. ok great.
the genre is 20+ years old and there are plenty of good games out there all with a slightly different take on RTS. RA2, CoH1, SupCom, AoE2, AoE3 to name a few. If none of the games in the genre hold your interest chances are you just bored of RTS or bored of gaming.
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Wuut. And why exactly does that have to make me sick of the genre? Just because you enjoy them and say they are good games doesnt make them good.
They are slowpaced, all have terrible micro vs micro. The start of all those games suck, its to much buildup with not much happening. Emphasize of hardcounters, not to much interraction on the maps. Maps dont add much, its just simple landscape terrain.
In combat, i dont see much tactic available. The strategy consists of hardcountering a unit, and make sure that the unit that the enemy hardcounters for you, you hardcounter it with another unit yourself. It goes on.
How The Fuck is this good rts games? All ingredients are lackluster. ALL OF THEM.
Its you who are narrowminded, and cant see past what we have.
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Has anyone ever had fun playing against Swarmhosts?
Personally, I leave the game instantly every time I see that unit. I rather play some other game than deal with that shit. Not because the unit is imba, i can't judge that, but because it's the most infuriating thing in the game to deal with.
Sometimes, fun should take precedence over balance, don't you think?
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On July 22 2017 00:04 ihatevideogames wrote:
Has anyone ever had fun playing against Swarmhosts?
Personally, I leave the game instantly every time I see that unit. I rather play some other game than deal with that shit. Not because the unit is imba, i can't judge that, but because it's the most infuriating thing in the game to deal with.
Sometimes, fun should take precedence over balance, don't you think?
According to bliz that's why they are nerfing ravens.....
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On July 21 2017 23:43 Foxxan wrote:
Wuut. And why exactly does that have to make me sick of the genre? Just because you enjoy them and say they are good games doesnt make them good.
They are slowpaced, all have terrible micro vs micro. The start of all those games suck, its to much buildup with not much happening. Emphasize of hardcounters, not to much interraction on the maps. Maps dont add much, its just simple landscape terrain.
In combat, i dont see much tactic available. The strategy consists of hardcountering a unit, and make sure that the unit that the enemy hardcounters for you, you hardcounter it with another unit yourself. It goes on.
How The Fuck is this good rts games? All ingredients are lackluster. ALL OF THEM.
Its you who are narrowminded, and cant see past what we have.
actually, ur opinion doesn't matter. if a game has long term success and it has an active community around it that loves the game and evolves the game play.. its a great game.
personally, CoH isn't my thing. my opinion doesn't matter. it has an active active community around it for 10+ years. I've watched guys play at LAN/Internet Cafes and they are having an absolute blast. Good for them.
its up to me, as a consumer, to find a game i like.
from age 9 to 14 i loved NHL '94. Now it bores me. That said, I consider it a great game and i'm happy for the great times i had playing the game.
I don't think its EA's "fault" that i don't play Hockey Sims any longer.
Blizzards RTS > EA's Hockey Sims.
I moved on.
If you dislike every game in any given genre whether its Hockey Sims or RTS games or Dot-Eating-Maze Games... move on man.
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On July 22 2017 00:04 ihatevideogames wrote:
Has anyone ever had fun playing against Swarmhosts?
Personally, I leave the game instantly every time I see that unit. I rather play some other game than deal with that shit. Not because the unit is imba, i can't judge that, but because it's the most infuriating thing in the game to deal with.
Sometimes, fun should take precedence over balance, don't you think?
Like we have fun playing vs mech ?
We like dealing with hellion runby faster than roach while the other sit home under tanks/PF/turetts and can't be attacked because sieged tanks crush everything on the ground while the T can be afk it changed nothing.
Then he mass raven...
The funny part is while the mech player force the zerg player to play this boring game vs mech he dare to spam in every balance threat he wants everything that can counter sieged tanks to be removed or nerf so hard.
SH are good only vs one mech unit : tanks but you're so sick of seeing SH because you can't make 15 tanks siege them and watch the zerg army instantly disappear ?
I'm sick of your cries, it's even more ridiculous now a mech player won GSL.
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EPT
