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On July 21 2017 07:38 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2017 05:24 MockHamill wrote:
After having used Thors drops for 40+ TvZ games I now know for sure: Thor drops do not counter Swarm Hosts at all. I am not even sure why anyone would think that.
There is only instance where Thor drops work vs Swarm Hosts and that is the opponent go for fast 2-base Swarm Host. In that case Thor dropping actually works.
Becuause casters had to say something at some point and the first thing they saw was a Korean going for Thor drop with moderate success. And, as you say, it can work. What actually worked sort of well for me towards the end vs Swarmhosts (in plastic league), was being active and out on the map. With this I had enough vision, map control and preassure on the Z that he cannot sensibly use SHs and I was able to pick them off one by one. However, I haven't seen a swarm host in weeks. It's always ling/bling or roach/raveger, going into hydras/viper. Sometimes, when the game is already won or lost, a Z would go ultras or broodlords, either to finish me off or as last hope. However, it's nothing but eye candy at that point.
The casters that said this are objectively wrong and don't have much experience with SH/mech vs SH.
They see 2/10000 mech games and in those games the Zergs are clueless in KR or don't know the swarmhost abuse meta.
I guarantee you if we locked some of these casters in a room and had them play even 100 mech vs Zerg/SH games straight they'd change their tune real fast and call out how overpowered swarmhosts are, just as badly as 3 rax reaper.
The reason casters are openly calling out how imba 3 rax reaper is because 3 rax reaper is literally seen in the first 2 minutes of a starcraft game and therefore you see it way more often. Mech games are few and far between in the first place, and then factoring KR Zergs in general play at a lower skill level than EU/NA Zergs....you get casters saying blatantly wrong things like "thor drop counters SH."
Try thor drop on the NA/EU ladder to "counter SH" and you'll see how fun it is when the Zerg has 25 SH that cannot be chased down as you fly your thor drop into the 10 corruptor he built because the Zerg isn't actually clueless.
Right now there really is no counter to SH in the game for mech other than "maxing out and making 20 ravens." Which honestly is a balance problem.
People should have seen this a while ago though, and i do not get why Blizzard doesn't learn from the past when SH were equally as terrible in Heart of the Swarm. The unit has always been fundamentally broken, and making locusts fly + SH travel at light speed kind of has them in a state right now in LOTV where they are actually stronger than the original incarnation of swarmhost.
Honestly, SH have been an issue since November of 2016 ever since the "mech patch" that buffed the SH to god tier status versus mech. IT was a known about issue even before then on the test map, and Blizzard were given a ton of feedback that they completely ignored.
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[QUOTE]On July 22 2017 06:12 avilo wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 21 2017 07:38 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 21 2017 05:24 MockHamill wrote:
After having used Thors drops for 40+ TvZ games I now know for sure: Thor drops do not counter Swarm Hosts at all. I am not even sure why anyone would think that.
There is only instance where Thor drops work vs Swarm Hosts and that is the opponent go for fast 2-base Swarm Host. In that case Thor dropping actually works.
[/QUOTE]
...and then factoring KR Zergs in general play at a lower skill level than ... NA Zergs...[/QUOTE]
Glad we have that established. It makes your other points even more compelling, and gives us insights the generations before us didn't even dare dreaming about. Kudos.
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So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387
How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game.
Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments.
Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed.
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How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 tanks and kill 4-5 hydras armies with purely tanks? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in 1998 when it was originally put into the game.
Wow i sound really retarded, maybe i should change my opinion
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On July 13 2017 10:47 avilo wrote:
Swarmhosts are infrequently seen - so they're fine.
Ravens are infrequently seen - they're not fine let's nerf hammer them.
Reapers are an issue in openers because of being too strong snowballing.
But Ravagers are OK in openers despite the same exact issue.
Do people not see issue with this? I mean i agree and even proposed the supply nerf to ravens/air units in the past, but only under the assumption Blizzard will also fix carriers and swarmhosts, the other "free unit producers" of Zerg and Protoss.
Nov 2016 is how long Swarmhosts have been messed up in LOTV. But let's nerf mech and ravens more while leaving swarmhosts the same.
....i'd really like to read more people's thoughts on this because to me...it seems really biased as fuck and just plain not well thought out from the devs. Nerfs to reapers and ravens are understandable but not without corresponding nerfs to insane things like swarmhosts and carriers as well.
There is a ton of bias in this Community Update - and it's all against Terran which i think is not right.
There is zero terran bias. There is no "biased as fuck" as you like to say. The changes are excellent and really thought out. They don't just say "let's nerf and see how it plays out" old school DK style to make it necessary to revert changes later, instead they offer various change variants and request feedback on each. The dev team has never been better.
About the SH, did you actually read the whole god damn writeup? Or do you just skim through paragraphs and see "nerf terran" and press the reply button viciously and furiously the second after? They literally mentioned keeoing an eye on SH, but i guess when you yourself are biased against the whole dev team, nothing they say can ever be satisfactory.
I keep wondering how come this community keeps tolerating your posts who are flat out insulting the dev team at times, but I guess it's ok since you are an "established pillar" of the community. Explain more how the whole SC2 community hates terran, it's fun to read the clownery.
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On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed.
instead of exploiting his army consisting of 20+ SH all clumped together always sending their locusts to one spot (your army) by defending with widow mines and dropping or attacking with air units at multiple places away from his SH, you kept making tanks which are terrible against SH, always having your whole (understrength) army in the same spot, and never even trying to build a maxed out army
the reasons why you lose have everything to do with your bad macro and lack of strategic vision
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On July 22 2017 08:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed. instead of exploiting his army consisting of 20+ SH all clumped together always sending their locusts to one spot (your army) by defending with widow mines and dropping or attacking with air units at multiple places away from his SH, you kept making tanks which are terrible against SH, always having your whole (understrength) army in the same spot, and never even trying to build a maxed out army the reasons why you lose have everything to do with your bad macro and lack of strategic vision
There is no justification for 25 units producing free armies over and over again being able to trade with 4-5 armies that cost actual income.
You're correct in that the only response to the current SH is to sit back and basically do nothing and turtle to mass raven/ghost/etc.
But you see the inherent imbalance/issue with that? No army should consist of 25 swarmhosts and be able to push back continuous armies of the opponent that cost income.
You cannot watch the game i posted and claim that SH are balanced when it's basically the entire army of the opponent. Saying the only response is to sit back and do nothing and max out is honestly really, really unhealthy for the game because it promotes inaction.
I do not understand how you or anyone else can justify 20-25 swarmhosts repeatedly killing entire armies for free with no counter play (SH launch the locust then run half way across the map).
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On July 22 2017 09:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 08:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed. instead of exploiting his army consisting of 20+ SH all clumped together always sending their locusts to one spot (your army) by defending with widow mines and dropping or attacking with air units at multiple places away from his SH, you kept making tanks which are terrible against SH, always having your whole (understrength) army in the same spot, and never even trying to build a maxed out army the reasons why you lose have everything to do with your bad macro and lack of strategic vision There is no justification for 25 units producing free armies over and over again being able to trade with 4-5 armies that cost actual income. You're correct in that the only response to the current SH is to sit back and basically do nothing and turtle to mass raven/ghost/etc. But you see the inherent imbalance/issue with that? No army should consist of 25 swarmhosts and be able to push back continuous armies of the opponent that cost income. You cannot watch the game i posted and claim that SH are balanced when it's basically the entire army of the opponent. Saying the only response is to sit back and do nothing and max out is honestly really, really unhealthy for the game because it promotes inaction. I do not understand how you or anyone else can justify 20-25 swarmhosts repeatedly killing entire armies for free with no counter play (SH launch the locust then run half way across the map).
Are you doing this on purpose? He did not say that. What he is saying is that you should try and do other stuff than camping like you do.
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On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed.
- bad macro (in the worker repartition and the upgrades departments)
- bad production (adding 3 starports when you obviously have no money because your workers wheren't assigned to the correct bases)
- bad tech timings/switches (way too long to produce starport units or research blue flame, speedbanshees are a terrible choice too)
- bad micro (no focus fire on the mines)
- bad positioning/army usage (going for drilling claws and never dropping a single mine in mineral lines, never actually reaching the mineral lines, shoving the ramp in front of the natural which increases siege tank friendly fire)
- no attempt at exploiting the SHs weaknesses (no multiproned attacks, you just shoved the front all the time, especially since once you finally built medivacs you didn't use them to drop when his only anti air were queens)
However mass SH strats are extremely abusive and your opponent played badly (running swarmhosts into mech units fire, only occasional locust micro, bad micro overall).
The SH needs a change/nerf but this game is a bad exemple.
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That's always funny when avilo explains that the best kor zerg dunno how to win vs mech because they don't make SH when he fails to qualify in premier league in NA.
The reality is more : Avilo's siege tanks stay at home, so Zerg can send wave after waves and it will pay because the only thing avilo is doing is staring his units die then he turtles more and whines to his viewers.
But when Dark, Soo play gumiho having 45 dead supply after you've sent 1 wave which is negated by good hellbat placement and unsieging tanks, it is game over when gumiho decides to immediatly push.
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On July 22 2017 09:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 08:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed. instead of exploiting his army consisting of 20+ SH all clumped together always sending their locusts to one spot (your army) by defending with widow mines and dropping or attacking with air units at multiple places away from his SH, you kept making tanks which are terrible against SH, always having your whole (understrength) army in the same spot, and never even trying to build a maxed out army the reasons why you lose have everything to do with your bad macro and lack of strategic vision There is no justification for 25 units producing free armies over and over again being able to trade with 4-5 armies that cost actual income. You're correct in that the only response to the current SH is to sit back and basically do nothing and turtle to mass raven/ghost/etc. But you see the inherent imbalance/issue with that? No army should consist of 25 swarmhosts and be able to push back continuous armies of the opponent that cost income. You cannot watch the game i posted and claim that SH are balanced when it's basically the entire army of the opponent. Saying the only response is to sit back and do nothing and max out is honestly really, really unhealthy for the game because it promotes inaction. I do not understand how you or anyone else can justify 20-25 swarmhosts repeatedly killing entire armies for free with no counter play (SH launch the locust then run half way across the map).
you could suicide 5 understrength marine armies into 20 colossus the way you suicide 5 understrength tank armies into swarm hosts, would that make colossus imbalanced
(obviously the answer is yes i suppose)
tanks suck against swarm host. they hard counter tanks. stop making tanks against swarm host and crying it doesn't work. stop sending your whole army to fight in the same spot over and over and over again with a composition that sucks against what you are facing. why would you ever think 12 tanks and a half-dozen hellbats are going to beat 15-25 SH worth of locusts
widow mines slaughter locusts. in that replay you posted you annihilated several waves of locusts with widow mines but couldn't take advantage because your composition (75% tank) was the wrong composition. make hellbats and cyclones and drop them on zerg expansions far away from the SH the instant you see locusts. in that game you posted a replay of, he would have had nothing to stop your drops, he would have lost the game very quickly. instead you kept sending understrength armies of the wrong composition to the same spot to fight overwhelming numbers of locusts - playing right into every strength of the SH - and you think imbalance is the reason you lost. no, your inability to do even diamond level macro when you aren't even being attacked and your strategic choices are the reasons you lost.
build more turrets that don't ever provide any value. build more CCs that you never actually use to provide income except through mule drops on other CC-occupied mineral lines, instead of floating them to unoccupied mineral lines so you have a proper economy. you are ALWAYS at least 1 base behind your opponent. build more starports and factories that you don't use because your economy is terribad. build anything but the proper units in the proper numbers and then take bad fights over and over again with the wrong units then whine imbalance when you lose.
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"...and then factoring KR Zergs in general play at a lower skill level than ... NA Zergs..."
LOL, wow, just wow, I had no idea that Dark and SoO were playing on a lower skill level then Elazer and Snute, thank God you're here Avilo to shed this light to the community.
Avilo I've seen your stream, you're terrible (despite your high level of play), your attitude is terrible, and you rely on the, "omg I don't know how to properly react" Terran turtle cancer that ranks up there with 45 minute Swarm Host vs. Colossus games and mass Carrier in terms of, "meta game styles that will put SC2 Esports in the coffin".
Go scam your stream viewers out of some more money, fuck you.
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it would be great if every balance thread wasnt purely about swarmhosts
reaper doesnt need a change either
maps need to be changed. that one with two side paths and two middle paths with destructible rocks == aids PvZ, aids TvZ, aids PvT. catallena is hot garbage too
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maps need to be changed. that one with two side paths and two middle paths with destructible rocks == aids PvZ, aids TvZ, aids PvT. catallena is hot garbage too
Interloper I'm guessing? Really curious to see how that map plays out in the scene. Seems really really really hard for races to lock down every base after their natural.
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On July 22 2017 11:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2017 08:11 avilo wrote:So just played this game: if people still think this is fine i don't know what to say, it's just one example of many of the game being ruined by swarmhosts atm: http://ggtracker.com/matches/7121387How is it acceptable for someone to basically make 15-25 SH and kill 4-5 mech armies with purely locusts? It's not. This is something that should have been hotfixed back in November when it was originally put into the game. Is there any pro-gamer Zerg on these forums or elsewhere that would like to live debate me about swarmhosts being broken in SC2? I do not think there's anyone that can defend this unit in it's current state and i'll be able to easily sway anyone's opinion with well sound arguments. Honestly the sooner more attention is brought to the swarmhost issue the sooner it'll probably be brought up on Blizzard's radar and patched and fixed. - bad macro (in the worker repartition and the upgrades departments) - bad production (adding 3 starports when you obviously have no money because your workers wheren't assigned to the correct bases) - bad tech timings/switches (way too long to produce starport units or research blue flame, speedbanshees are a terrible choice too) - bad micro (no focus fire on the mines) - bad positioning/army usage (going for drilling claws and never dropping a single mine in mineral lines, never actually reaching the mineral lines, shoving the ramp in front of the natural which increases siege tank friendly fire) - no attempt at exploiting the SHs weaknesses (no multiproned attacks, you just shoved the front all the time, especially since once you finally built medivacs you didn't use them to drop when his only anti air were queens) However mass SH strats are extremely abusive and your opponent played badly (running swarmhosts into mech units fire, only occasional locust micro, bad micro overall). The SH needs a change/nerf but this game is a bad exemple.
Funny you guys attempt to defend SH imbalance here yet you don't even realize in the replay i posted the guy purposely suicided 15 SH to make a point and then re-made them all. He even admits in the game that he suicided them purposely and re-made them because they are dirt cheap and he knew he would still win just from making more SH.
On July 22 2017 20:14 Tyrhanius wrote:
That's always funny when avilo explains that the best kor zerg dunno how to win vs mech because they don't make SH when he fails to qualify in premier league in NA.
The reality is more : Avilo's siege tanks stay at home, so Zerg can send wave after waves and it will pay because the only thing avilo is doing is staring his units die then he turtles more and whines to his viewers.
But when Dark, Soo play gumiho having 45 dead supply after you've sent 1 wave which is negated by good hellbat placement and unsieging tanks, it is game over when gumiho decides to immediatly push.
This does not work vs a good SH abuser as you can see in the replay. You can push all you want, the SH waves allow Zerg to bank enough income to make whatever they want + then have the locust waves.
As for gumiho and other games and people commenting about KR/NA/EU Zergs - KR Zergs are either reluctant or have no clue how to abuse the swarmhost meta. Though if you saw a recent pro game finally Zergs are starting to just "make 25 SH" and the game basically stalls out for the Terran going mech because he can't do anything vs locust waves and is forced to turtle to mass air because of it.
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On July 23 2017 07:21 avilo wrote:
As for gumiho and other games and people commenting about KR/NA/EU Zergs - KR Zergs are either reluctant or have no clue how to abuse the swarmhost meta. Though if you saw a recent pro game finally Zergs are starting to just "make 25 SH" and the game basically stalls out for the Terran going mech because he can't do anything vs locust waves and is forced to turtle to mass air because of it.
this is a very good point.. because as we all know NA Zergs lead the scene in new innovative Zerg play tactics and often KR Zergs learn these new techniques from these NA masterminds.. but it usually takes them a few months to fully comprehend the pure genius of these super advanced Zerg metagame developments. Just like all the KR Terrans learn all their newest techniques by following "famous" NA player Avilo. This is an official fact because Avilo said so on his stream. 
Conclusion: NA rules the SC2 scene. That's the bottom line here guys. I'm calling for zero Koreans making it to the final 4 at BlizzCon2017.
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If what avilo says is true, then it really shows(with proof) us all that blizzard dont really know what they are doing.
On July 23 2017 07:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2017 07:21 avilo wrote:
As for gumiho and other games and people commenting about KR/NA/EU Zergs - KR Zergs are either reluctant or have no clue how to abuse the swarmhost meta. Though if you saw a recent pro game finally Zergs are starting to just "make 25 SH" and the game basically stalls out for the Terran going mech because he can't do anything vs locust waves and is forced to turtle to mass air because of it. this is a very good point.. because as we all know NA Zergs lead the scene in new innovative Zerg play tactics and often KR Zergs learn these new techniques from these NA masterminds.. but it usually takes them a few months to fully comprehend the pure genius of these super advanced Zerg metagame developments. Just like all the KR Terrans learn all their newest techniques by following "famous" NA player Avilo. This is an official fact because Avilo said so on his stream. Conclusion: NA rules the SC2 scene. That's the bottom line here guys. I'm calling for zero Koreans making it to the final 4 at BlizzCon2017.
From the little i have heard, KOREA can be late with some metas. Its real life, not science fiction. Oh btw, koreans are humans. Your welcome.
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Sc2 is an awesome game with an awesome community: watching this weekend's HSC and GSL is enough for me to keep loving the game.
Can't we just ignore the rotten fruits (e.g. avilo) and discuss possible improvements without reducing all these threads to a sh discussion?
This guy makes his income on a stream that has success thanks to people enjoying is toxic personality, the whine and the insults: he won't stop whining regardless of the state of the game because he would just loose his "job" and his role.
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On July 23 2017 09:45 Foxxan wrote:
From the little i have heard, KOREA can be late with some metas. Its real life, not science fiction. Oh btw, koreans are humans. Your welcome.
just because i fucked around with 3-rax Reaper a month before i saw GSL level Terrans using it doesn't mean they "learned it form me".
it isn't meta until a player with the highest multitasking, most precise micro and optimum macro have used a build to defeat an opponent with the highest multitasking, most precise micro and optimum macro.
To provide a more concrete example: any "new" Zerg early build "invented in NA" can't claim viability until it survives the Byun Reaper grinder. And even if it does.. its pure coincidence that it does because NA Zerg Ladder players do not experience the kind of pressure a Korean GSL Terran can put on Zerg in the early game.
The NA Ladder is basically meaningless regarding competitive play at the top level; the NA Ladder is a good place for hobby level players to have fun.
On July 23 2017 10:33 VHbb wrote:
Sc2 is an awesome game with an awesome community: watching this weekend's HSC and GSL is enough for me to keep loving the game.
Can't we just ignore the rotten fruits (e.g. avilo) and discuss possible improvements without reducing all these threads to a sh discussion?
This guy makes his income on a stream that has success thanks to people enjoying is toxic personality, the whine and the insults: he won't stop whining regardless of the state of the game because he would just loose his "job" and his role.
it has been awesome. i follow Protoss less closely than the other races.. that said... i think i'm seeing a comeback in Zealot usage and i'm glad to see it
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So here is another one, this game vs Golden smurfing:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/7122574
Posting replays because people don't seem to know what's going on with swarmhosts/mech and the ladder. It would be nice if Ruff and other players that play mech a lot post replays as well vs SH whether wins or losses to show this unit is over the top.
Game has been like this since Nov 2016. I think all mech Terrans are asking for is this unit to get nerf hammered and addressed in a meaningful way so we can actually get to play the game again without every game devolving into this.
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EPT
