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On June 25 2017 07:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
they both know 100X more about the extreme lategame (played at their very high APM and multitasking level ) than any one in this thread. of course, if any one in this thread defeats either them in a BO7 i'll concede i was incorrect.
both players were doing feints and counters and reading the reactions to their feints. etc etc etc. again though .. anyone with a 2 sentence "solution" to beating either of these guys is welcome to fly to Seoul and pick up some easy money.
I know right.
"My low masters opponents are way ahead in the meta"
If swarm hosts were this magic bullet, you can be certain that they would be built.
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On June 24 2017 20:51 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote:
I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
They aren't going swarmhosts because they don't understand SH are > Mech on the current patch.
Soo built zero swarmhost during the finals which shows his compete lack of understanding of Z vs Mech.
Thor drop does nothing versus a good swarmhost user because he'll have hydra or corruptor with the swarmhost.
I think there's even a game of elazer recently owning gumiho's mech with swarmhosts. Korean Zergs are honestly always incredibly far behind meta when it comes to playing versus mech. But it's understandable because very few people go mech at all due to things like swarmhosts currently being how they are.
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So not only soO, but also everyone he trained with are worse than any internet wannabe?
Damn I should have go to GSL qualifier, that must be so easy.
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Oh boys, we need a "community update" for Korean scene too given how well the GSL qualifier did.
I'm a Z so I should practice more proxy hatches and lings all-in. May I qualify for GSL Code S one day.
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"Player A anticipates that Player B is going for X, Player B anticipates that Player A will anticipate that Player B is going for X, so Player B instead chooses to go for Y" happens quite often. And oftentimes "Player A" will anticipate this and attempt to counter "Player B's" choice of Y. And, even then, it's possible that Player B will anticipate this and go for Z instead. Some people seem to assume that none of this happened. And, Korean players do use Swarm Hosts. Leenock, for one, used them for several months on ladder against Protoss and Terran players and iirc so did Solar. They don't seem to use them as often anymore, so it could be that the meta shifts in different ways in Korea than it does for NA and EU and it's entirely possible that their meta isn't "behind" but simply on a different path, or even so far ahead that it looks like a meta that NA/EU experienced in the past and has shifted out of but not back into... But perhaps that's too deep for a late night TL post...
Now for some logical analysis:
"Making Swarm Hosts is the only way for a player to show their understanding of Mech."
"soO did not make Swarm Hosts."
"Therefore, soO does not understand Mech."
This is only logical if the first statement is true, which it is not proved to be.
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On June 25 2017 19:11 blunderfulguy wrote:
"Player A anticipates that Player B is going for X, Player B anticipates that Player A will anticipate that Player B is going for X, so Player B instead chooses to go for Y" happens quite often. And oftentimes "Player A" will anticipate this and attempt to counter "Player B's" choice of Y. And, even then, it's possible that Player B will anticipate this and go for Z instead. Some people seem to assume that none of this happened. And, Korean players do use Swarm Hosts. Leenock, for one, used them for several months on ladder against Protoss and Terran players and iirc so did Solar. They don't seem to use them as often anymore, so it could be that the meta shifts in different ways in Korea than it does for NA and EU and it's entirely possible that their meta isn't "behind" but simply on a different path, or even so far ahead that it looks like a meta that NA/EU experienced in the past and has shifted out of but not back into... But perhaps that's too deep for a late night TL post...
Now for some logical analysis:
"Making Swarm Hosts is the only way for a player to show their understanding of Mech."
"soO did not make Swarm Hosts."
"Therefore, soO does not understand Mech."
This is only logical if the first statement is true, which it is not proved to be.
Why are we still having this discussion. Swarm host vs. mech is not an absolute solution
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Yes, swarm hosts counter turtle mech. Which is why we don't see pro mech players camp in their bases. Pro players are active with their mech units which makes Swarm hosts way less powerful, and sometimes meaningless.
Mech players these days use medivacs to compensate for the immobility of the mech units, like Thors. As well as being very active with hellion runbies and other forms of harass.
Gumiho was active with his thor drops which swarm hosts can't counter, which is why soO didn't go for swarm hosts.
In the IEM, Gumiho was active with his banshees which also makes swarm hosts laughable, which is why Dark went for roach hydra viper (1-1 vs the mech style of Gumiho then).
The mech players on the ladder prefer to camp in their base, which is why swarm hosts destroy them, but pro mech players know that, playing a way more active style, which makes swarm hosts way less powerful. Swarm hosts are necessary to prevent 1 hour games where the mech players sit and camp, but its great as I don't want to play these games as well as yawn while watching how a mech players adds another tower to his mech fortress.
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On June 25 2017 13:36 avilo wrote:
They aren't going swarmhosts because they don't understand SH are > Mech on the current patch.
Soo built zero swarmhost during the finals which shows his compete lack of understanding of Z vs Mech.
Thor drop does nothing versus a good swarmhost user because he'll have hydra or corruptor with the swarmhost.
this is part of your "Avilo character" comedy routine right?
On June 25 2017 21:17 bulya wrote:
Yes, swarm hosts counter turtle mech. Which is why we don't see pro mech players camp in their bases. Pro players are active with their mech units which makes Swarm hosts way less powerful, and sometimes meaningless.
Mech players these days use medivacs to compensate for the immobility of the mech units, like Thors. As well as being very active with hellion runbies and other forms of harass.
Gumiho was active with his thor drops which swarm hosts can't counter, which is why soO didn't go for swarm hosts.
In the IEM, Gumiho was active with his banshees which also makes swarm hosts laughable, which is why Dark went for roach hydra viper (1-1 vs the mech style of Gumiho then).
The mech players on the ladder prefer to camp in their base, which is why swarm hosts destroy them, but pro mech players know that, playing a way more active style, which makes swarm hosts way less powerful. Swarm hosts are necessary to prevent 1 hour games where the mech players sit and camp, but its great as I don't want to play these games as well as yawn while watching how a mech players adds another tower to his mech fortress.
good points here. thx for posting
i like to Mech myself. my apm and multitasking aren't the greatest so i sometimes resort to turtling and i get destroyed by swarmhosts. but, its clearly my issue for playing so passively.
Other turtle mechers in this thread want Swarmhosts removed from the game. I realize i'm losing to Swarmhosts because of my weak passive play and I'm just not good enough. Others delude themselves into believing they know more about the TvZ meta than the best players in the world.
There are honest Terran Mech players out there. Not all of us are delusional zombies taking at face value everything twitch streamers say.
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Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
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Canada2250 Posts
On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
He does use SH a lot, but it's rarely more than 8. He keeps his SH count below 8, but he is very active with them and has a great sense of the swarm cd.
However, I recall Solar's SH getting caught with their pants down once, and he totally lost that game afterward.
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On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
But Inno beat the shit out of Solar with mech, twice, in SSL. He didn't make a single SH afaik.
To be fair, Inno's wildly successful Hellion/Banshee openings deserve most of the credit. But mech needs some kind of aggessive opening to kill lots of drones and that's one of them.
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On June 26 2017 03:12 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box. But Inno beat the shit out of Solar with mech, twice, in SSL. He didn't make a single SH afaik. To be fair, Inno's wildly successful Hellion/Banshee openings deserve most of the credit. But mech needs some kind of aggessive opening to kill lots of drones and that's one of them.
usually that seems to be the case. however, Gumiho won game 1 without killing lots of drones at the start.
because SC2 is a good RTS game these "absolutes" have all sorts of exceptions and qualifications which makes on the fly , in-game decision making crucial because every situation is unique.
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EPT
