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Hey everyone,
Congrats to Neeb, Serral, and all the players at WCS Jönköping for their amazing performances! It was great to watch some incredible matches and some amazingly skilled players in action.
Recently, we received feedback regarding this season’s map pool. Some players felt that some maps could be favored more for certain races in certain matchups. Our goal with this season’s map pool was to try and bring in maps that could be new and interesting for gameplay, but still maintain a good balance for all races. We feel the current season’s map pool did a good job in creating new and interesting gameplay or matchups. However, we do feel that certain changes could be made to help improve matches on certain maps. Instead of completely rotating out maps that have received concerns, we feel that making small improvements could be enough to bring the maps into a more balanced state.
To start, we do hear concerns that matchups on Blood Boil could be more favorable towards Zerg due to the gold minerals in the middle of the map. Our plan is to change the gold mineral base to a regular blue mineral base. We think this change should help balance the map for ZvP and ZvT matchups. We’d like to implement this soon so that players have time to prepare and adjust before DreamHack Valencia. Additional possible changes include adding a second gas geyser and reducing the mineral count of the natural expansion on Blood Boil or adding a second gas geyser on the third expansion on Sequencer. As for the rest of the map pool, we will be monitoring their performance in case we feel other changes are necessary.
As always, we welcome your thoughts and feedback!
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Third gas on Sequencer is terrible idea. Protoss and Terran would easily turtle in this scenario. Maps favorable more for Zerg? Seriously? Concidering that previous map pool was terrible for this race? Most of problems with balance lies not in map pool but in poor design. Work on that more please, as latest "Community Feedbacks" are pretty much worthless. Feels like u write something just to show that u're still alive. But I can't see nothing valuable there.
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While I'm glad that they're considering changing the maps, and kinda like the proposed changes to Blood Boil, the reasoning behind the changes makes me really nervous, and don't give me the impression that Blizzard understands the maps.
For example Blizzard states that matchups on Blood Boil are favourable to zerg, but that isn't the case at all. While ZvP is very zerg favoured on Blood Boil, TvZ is clearly terran favoured on it. So fixing the balance of Blood Boil isn't just a matter of nerfing zerg.
Adding a second gas to the third on Sequencer is also a change I don't really understand. It's essentially a nerf to terran as far as I can tell and a buff to Protoss in PvZ, and while the state of the balance on Sequencer isn't obvious and is still in flux, I'd guess that terran isn't favoured in either match-up. Three-rax reapers are admittedly pretty good on Sequencer, but adding a gas to the third is a much bigger nerf to "fair" terran strategies rather than "unfair" ones.
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Imo, i guess all are good changes because of the mineral factor. I talk from the protoss point of view and that missing gasses on the natural of BB and 3rd of secuencer are a huge nerf. Zerg and Terran have more mineral-heavy army specialy on the early - mid while protoss needs heavy gas compositions to tech to AOE or stargate.
So protoss on BB is cutting some gas tech to fit the timmings with the storm/colossi/disruptor while on secuencer takes more risk using a more exposed 3rd.
I think is good adding a 3rd gas on secuencer but less minerals to compensate the risks....
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So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
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Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
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On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote:
So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
=> Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
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On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
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On June 22 2017 16:36 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote:
So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such) => Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
And then Protoss wins the whole thing. LOL
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On June 22 2017 17:14 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress. Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
That's a great comment on what Avilo and his disciples whine about on TL. Couldn't agree more.
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On June 22 2017 17:14 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress. Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
I do not care about my leauge. If went up or down a leauge I would still lose 50% of my games to the matchmaking system so my win/loss experience would be the same.
I do care about being able to play and watch a larger variation of gameplay styles. I mostly stopped watching pro level games since their is hardly any mech games to learn from. HOTS was in much better state since both bio and mech was viable so the game was more varied and intresting to both play and watch.
This game needs more variation and more viable play styles in order to grow instead of continue its decline.
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On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Mech is dead? what? Do you even watch pro games?
Mech is really strong right now.
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On June 22 2017 17:22 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 16:36 DarkGamer wrote:On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote:
So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such) => Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage. And then Protoss wins the whole thing. LOL
No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post 
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On June 22 2017 16:19 hiroshOne wrote:
Third gas on Sequencer is terrible idea. Protoss and Terran would easily turtle in this scenario. Maps favorable more for Zerg? Seriously? Concidering that previous map pool was terrible for this race? Most of problems with balance lies not in map pool but in poor design. Work on that more please, as latest "Community Feedbacks" are pretty much worthless. Feels like u write something just to show that u're still alive. But I can't see nothing valuable there.
Second gas at the third base, not third gas...
Currently some expansions have only a single gas which is pretty bad for Protoss.
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On June 22 2017 17:14 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress. Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
you´re absolutely right.
Last month Beastyqt gets to top 50 GM on his NA account by Battlecruiser rushing every game in every matchup.
Unless you are GM, you can play a lot of "not viable" strategies and have a good W/L ratio, it totally depends on your skill
Sure it´s hard to play against Swarm Hosts and Vipers but it´s not an insta lose if the Zerg goes for it.
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Where is the balance update? Just curious, or is this entirely seperate from that?
No word about swarmhosts or carriers? Ravens? Mass air? Anything? =/ There was an update just last week that said this exact same thing...no balance changes. It's clear there are plenty of areas there can be changes especially for mech viability and addressing swarmhosts.
On June 22 2017 17:56 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 17:14 Vanadiel wrote:On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote:
Swarm Hosts?
Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress. Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today. you´re absolutely right. Last month Beastyqt gets to top 50 GM on his NA account by Battlecruiser rushing every game in every matchup. Unless you are GM, you can play a lot of "not viable" strategies and have a good W/L ratio, it totally depends on your skill Sure it´s hard to play against Swarm Hosts and Vipers but it´s not an insta lose if the Zerg goes for it.
I think you pretty much miss the point. People want mech viability without being forced to play versus 20 swarmhosts every game.
Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts.
There's been also about 1% or 0%? Mech TvPs? It's never seen at all in pro play for years.
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On June 22 2017 17:41 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 17:22 hiroshOne wrote:On June 22 2017 16:36 DarkGamer wrote:On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote:
So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such) => Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage. And then Protoss wins the whole thing. LOL No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post
I don't have to, because thing that u wrote are ballshit. Zerg should have economic advantage as he has weaker units so it must produce more. Especially with LOTV macro nerf I would rather say that gold mineral bases make things more equal vs Protoss chronoboosted probes and shooting pylons. Protoss doesn't need even invest in static defence right now as we saw in Neeb vs Serral series (that game when Neeb hold that hydra push from Serral). It is Zerg who must cut drones to even have a chance to defend Protoss harras or agression. So what kind of income advantage are u talking about?
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If you whine about race Balance on SC2, change your way of thinking or just quit this game, it might not be a game for you.
This game is all about getting better and better again. The only things that can really slow you is your skill and your will to get better.
When you lose against an allin, it's your fault, not the alliner's fault. You can scout it to counter it, and every allin can be countered. When you lose in late game, it's also your fault, there are so many things, I will not enumerate all of them. But it's not a single unit that can stop you. Plus, every units can be countered.
I'm playing mech T as main race, and yes SH are strong, but we can counter them, and the zerg must use them well to get good value out of them.
If SH would not exists, in my opinion, all T would play turtle Mech and win the game. This is the same for carriers.
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DarkGamer: No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post [/QUOTE]
hiroshOne: I don't have to, because thing that u wrote are ballshit. Zerg should have economic advantage as he has weaker units so it must produce more. Especially with LOTV macro nerf I would rather say that gold mineral bases make things more equal vs Protoss chronoboosted probes and shooting pylons. Protoss doesn't need even invest in static defence right now as we saw in Neeb vs Serral series (that game when Neeb hold that hydra push from Serral). It is Zerg who must cut drones to even have a chance to defend Protoss harras or agression. So what kind of income advantage are u talking about?[/QUOTE]
Dont be so offensive. Its clear that u are frustated with the state of the game. but dont think your opinion is the truth please.
I think the same way like raven said. maybe think about it this way will help u out.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
