Congrats to Neeb, Serral, and all the players at WCS Jönköping for their amazing performances! It was great to watch some incredible matches and some amazingly skilled players in action.
Recently, we received feedback regarding this season’s map pool. Some players felt that some maps could be favored more for certain races in certain matchups. Our goal with this season’s map pool was to try and bring in maps that could be new and interesting for gameplay, but still maintain a good balance for all races. We feel the current season’s map pool did a good job in creating new and interesting gameplay or matchups. However, we do feel that certain changes could be made to help improve matches on certain maps. Instead of completely rotating out maps that have received concerns, we feel that making small improvements could be enough to bring the maps into a more balanced state.
To start, we do hear concerns that matchups on Blood Boil could be more favorable towards Zerg due to the gold minerals in the middle of the map. Our plan is to change the gold mineral base to a regular blue mineral base. We think this change should help balance the map for ZvP and ZvT matchups. We’d like to implement this soon so that players have time to prepare and adjust before DreamHack Valencia. Additional possible changes include adding a second gas geyser and reducing the mineral count of the natural expansion on Blood Boil or adding a second gas geyser on the third expansion on Sequencer. As for the rest of the map pool, we will be monitoring their performance in case we feel other changes are necessary.
Third gas on Sequencer is terrible idea. Protoss and Terran would easily turtle in this scenario. Maps favorable more for Zerg? Seriously? Concidering that previous map pool was terrible for this race? Most of problems with balance lies not in map pool but in poor design. Work on that more please, as latest "Community Feedbacks" are pretty much worthless. Feels like u write something just to show that u're still alive. But I can't see nothing valuable there.
While I'm glad that they're considering changing the maps, and kinda like the proposed changes to Blood Boil, the reasoning behind the changes makes me really nervous, and don't give me the impression that Blizzard understands the maps.
For example Blizzard states that matchups on Blood Boil are favourable to zerg, but that isn't the case at all. While ZvP is very zerg favoured on Blood Boil, TvZ is clearly terran favoured on it. So fixing the balance of Blood Boil isn't just a matter of nerfing zerg.
Adding a second gas to the third on Sequencer is also a change I don't really understand. It's essentially a nerf to terran as far as I can tell and a buff to Protoss in PvZ, and while the state of the balance on Sequencer isn't obvious and is still in flux, I'd guess that terran isn't favoured in either match-up. Three-rax reapers are admittedly pretty good on Sequencer, but adding a gas to the third is a much bigger nerf to "fair" terran strategies rather than "unfair" ones.
Imo, i guess all are good changes because of the mineral factor. I talk from the protoss point of view and that missing gasses on the natural of BB and 3rd of secuencer are a huge nerf. Zerg and Terran have more mineral-heavy army specialy on the early - mid while protoss needs heavy gas compositions to tech to AOE or stargate.
So protoss on BB is cutting some gas tech to fit the timmings with the storm/colossi/disruptor while on secuencer takes more risk using a more exposed 3rd.
I think is good adding a 3rd gas on secuencer but less minerals to compensate the risks....
So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote: So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
=> Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote: So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
=> Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
That's a great comment on what Avilo and his disciples whine about on TL. Couldn't agree more.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
I do not care about my leauge. If went up or down a leauge I would still lose 50% of my games to the matchmaking system so my win/loss experience would be the same.
I do care about being able to play and watch a larger variation of gameplay styles. I mostly stopped watching pro level games since their is hardly any mech games to learn from. HOTS was in much better state since both bio and mech was viable so the game was more varied and intresting to both play and watch.
This game needs more variation and more viable play styles in order to grow instead of continue its decline.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Mech is dead? what? Do you even watch pro games? Mech is really strong right now.
On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote: So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
=> Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
And then Protoss wins the whole thing. LOL
No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post
On June 22 2017 16:19 hiroshOne wrote: Third gas on Sequencer is terrible idea. Protoss and Terran would easily turtle in this scenario. Maps favorable more for Zerg? Seriously? Concidering that previous map pool was terrible for this race? Most of problems with balance lies not in map pool but in poor design. Work on that more please, as latest "Community Feedbacks" are pretty much worthless. Feels like u write something just to show that u're still alive. But I can't see nothing valuable there.
Second gas at the third base, not third gas...
Currently some expansions have only a single gas which is pretty bad for Protoss.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
you´re absolutely right.
Last month Beastyqt gets to top 50 GM on his NA account by Battlecruiser rushing every game in every matchup. Unless you are GM, you can play a lot of "not viable" strategies and have a good W/L ratio, it totally depends on your skill Sure it´s hard to play against Swarm Hosts and Vipers but it´s not an insta lose if the Zerg goes for it.
Where is the balance update? Just curious, or is this entirely seperate from that?
No word about swarmhosts or carriers? Ravens? Mass air? Anything? =/ There was an update just last week that said this exact same thing...no balance changes. It's clear there are plenty of areas there can be changes especially for mech viability and addressing swarmhosts.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
you´re absolutely right.
Last month Beastyqt gets to top 50 GM on his NA account by Battlecruiser rushing every game in every matchup. Unless you are GM, you can play a lot of "not viable" strategies and have a good W/L ratio, it totally depends on your skill Sure it´s hard to play against Swarm Hosts and Vipers but it´s not an insta lose if the Zerg goes for it.
I think you pretty much miss the point. People want mech viability without being forced to play versus 20 swarmhosts every game.
Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts.
There's been also about 1% or 0%? Mech TvPs? It's never seen at all in pro play for years.
On June 22 2017 16:28 AbouSV wrote: So they wanted to try new things, but in the end they will transform the map into standard ones?
Also, I didn't see many games on blood boil where the zerg was taking the gold and had any direct advantage. It's still a gold in the middle of the map. Anyone has more info on that? (Examples or such)
=> Every high level PvZ had this problem. The most resetly televised example is the final of Jönköping:Serral Vs Neeb game 2. Serral takes the gold base and the p tries to do a timing attack.This is often seen on high and hightest level cuz otherwise the z gets a big econemic advantage.
And then Protoss wins the whole thing. LOL
No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post
I don't have to, because thing that u wrote are ballshit. Zerg should have economic advantage as he has weaker units so it must produce more. Especially with LOTV macro nerf I would rather say that gold mineral bases make things more equal vs Protoss chronoboosted probes and shooting pylons. Protoss doesn't need even invest in static defence right now as we saw in Neeb vs Serral series (that game when Neeb hold that hydra push from Serral). It is Zerg who must cut drones to even have a chance to defend Protoss harras or agression. So what kind of income advantage are u talking about?
If you whine about race Balance on SC2, change your way of thinking or just quit this game, it might not be a game for you.
This game is all about getting better and better again. The only things that can really slow you is your skill and your will to get better.
When you lose against an allin, it's your fault, not the alliner's fault. You can scout it to counter it, and every allin can be countered. When you lose in late game, it's also your fault, there are so many things, I will not enumerate all of them. But it's not a single unit that can stop you. Plus, every units can be countered.
I'm playing mech T as main race, and yes SH are strong, but we can counter them, and the zerg must use them well to get good value out of them.
If SH would not exists, in my opinion, all T would play turtle Mech and win the game. This is the same for carriers.
DarkGamer: No balance whine please. You are missing the point with your post. Read carfefully, think and then post [/QUOTE]
hiroshOne: I don't have to, because thing that u wrote are ballshit. Zerg should have economic advantage as he has weaker units so it must produce more. Especially with LOTV macro nerf I would rather say that gold mineral bases make things more equal vs Protoss chronoboosted probes and shooting pylons. Protoss doesn't need even invest in static defence right now as we saw in Neeb vs Serral series (that game when Neeb hold that hydra push from Serral). It is Zerg who must cut drones to even have a chance to defend Protoss harras or agression. So what kind of income advantage are u talking about?[/QUOTE]
Dont be so offensive. Its clear that u are frustated with the state of the game. but dont think your opinion is the truth please. I think the same way like raven said. maybe think about it this way will help u out.
On June 22 2017 17:29 MockHamill wrote: I do care about being able to play and watch a larger variation of gameplay styles. I mostly stopped watching pro level games since their is hardly any mech games to learn from. HOTS was in much better state since both bio and mech was viable so the game was more varied and intresting to both play and watch.
First good news then : you can play every variation of gameplay style you want. Other good news : You can see mech from time to time at pro level. Story tells that you might even see it in a GSL final.
My opinion on Mech HOTS : It was excruciatingly boring to watch and to play against. Yeah it's dead on pro level nowaday, and it's a good thing, just as it's a good thing that infestor-BL is dead. But if that's interesting to you then be happy, you can still do it if that what interest you.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
Thank you. We need more people with your attitude in this community.
mech vZ is viable on all maps except blood boil at the pro level. thor/hellbat/tank is certainly not my favourite iteration of mech, but it is what it is.
despite only having 1 gas at the third, Sequencer is probably the strongest mech vT map. the ramps and cliffs more than make up for this. Sequencer is the only ladder map I've seen GuMiho consistently mech vT on. he usually takes the 4th as his 3rd, and the 3rd as his 4th.
I like the Blood Boil change, but I think adding a 2nd gas at the 3rd will make Sequencer way too turtley. I think it would be better to add a 2nd gas at this location instead:
First of all fix reapers. The previous fix did not achieve its goal and we see lots of mass reapers again. Is it intended for reapers to have a decisive impact on a high percentage of games? I do not think the current maps are a problem. The fact that Serral, Scarlett or Elazer can beat Neeb or Showtime from time to time does not mean the maps are bad. Perhaps they even make the MU's balanced better.
On June 22 2017 16:27 EESCLuna wrote: Imo, i guess all are good changes because of the mineral factor. I talk from the protoss point of view and that missing gasses on the natural of BB and 3rd of secuencer are a huge nerf. Zerg and Terran have more mineral-heavy army specialy on the early - mid while protoss needs heavy gas compositions to tech to AOE or stargate.
So protoss on BB is cutting some gas tech to fit the timmings with the storm/colossi/disruptor while on secuencer takes more risk using a more exposed 3rd.
I think is good adding a 3rd gas on secuencer but less minerals to compensate the risks....
I am agreeing with you concerning the addition of the second gaz. I really think that the lack of gaz was a big problem for protoss: you either try to expand somewhere else but get crushed because the base is not defendable or you take the 1 gaz base and struggle to produce the valuable units.
I don't understand the reasoning behind the map changes here. These are features of the map AKA gold base, only one gas at the third. In some way, it sharps the game into a different direction that is a bit unusual. I think it is a good thing. Why would you try to change them back to the old, boring, conventional way just to buff/nerf a certain race in a specific map? That is rather "tunnel vision" of a solution.
Despite all of Protoss whining about the current map pool, Neeb (a PROTOSS) managed to win it all. It shows skills, practice and execution do trump all of those "flaws" that you try to blame on.
I'm only a Plat level (AKA noob) so I guess I don't understand that the game at the highest level but I dislike a certain map because of its layout than the fact it has a gold base or missing a gas.
The removal of the Gold base on Blood boil is probably good, but the map isn't zerg favored in TvZ. Sequencer is fine by means of balance. Adding additional gas in the inner third will make it Protoss favored in PvZ.
In the current state, Blood boil, Defenders Landing, and Odessy are the zerg favored maps in PvZ, removing one of them will make it 2 maps zerg favored and 2 maps protoss favored (proxima and abyssal), which will be fine. So Sequencer does not require changes I think.
My PvT sucks, but its not the maps, I'd be happy if a pro player will share his opinion about the maps for PvT, as the maps are fine for ZvT (1 T favored, 1 Z favored, and the rest are quite equal, so nothing special).
I really hope they will remove Bloodboil (it shouldn't even have made it in the pool to begin with). In PvZ: with gold it was unplayable for P pretty much. The removal of gold will make it fine. In TvZ: it was not that zerg favoured because of features like the very easily attackable part between the first 3 bases (disregarding the gold). Gold made it balanced.
Also what the hell is up with that snow? I can't even find a way to disable it. It's not an arcade map where you might just go for antigameplay aesthetics.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
Thank you. We need more people with your attitude in this community.
Why not just put Rich Vespene Geysers in the back of Blood Boil like what the mapmaker wanted? That's the whole point of having 10 mineral matches and 1 geyser.
I don't understand why there is still often a sweet spot for positioning Overlords on a high ground near the jokepoints of Natural or 3rd to scout. It's an unnecessary avantage for scouting the army composition in the early game in ZvX.
On June 23 2017 01:27 Zulu23 wrote: I don't understand why there is still often a sweet spot for positioning Overlords on a high ground near the jokepoints of Natural or 3rd to scout. It's an unnecessary avantage for scouting the army composition in the early game in ZvX.
it´s so sad looking zerg saying "fix reapers" when his only compos on pvz are lingbanehydra (1A). Let´s make micro more rewardable like the LOTV video said on the beggining. Destroy the 1-a or the plant and forget (lib mine tank) compositions so people can start thinking they lose because they fail, not by imba simple shit.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
Thank you. We need more people with your attitude in this community.
This an awfull horribly entitled and totally self centered and conflictive attitude, we DON'T NEED more of this in the community.
On June 22 2017 18:04 avilo wrote: Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts.
Strategies work a lot better when your opponent can't blind counter them. That's working as intended.
Wow, I still play this game from time to time because I think glaring design problems aside, there is still fun elements to the game, but it get's harder and harder to care when games like LoL, Dota2, and Hots receive at least semi frequent bigger patches and lots of smaller, obvious QoL changes to their heroes/champs/game in general where as SC2 get's more voice packs and map tweaks.
All of those other games are constantly being improved at least to some degree and it keeps the game feeling fresh and alive. Stupid things like mass Reaper openings being not necessarily broken but definitely oppressive to defend. Hydralisks never being buffed specifically vs air units which they are bad against, only their HP buffed which did almost nothing to make them stronger against Phoenixes which murder them on bonus damage or Carriers which just seem to murder anything outside of a huge Corruptor/Queen fleet and only pushed them over the edge to being overpowered vs. Protoss ground armies. Mech never being tuned to be any better against Protoss, Swarm Hosts never being removed from the game even though due to their stupid free unit design are clearly a cancer unit that can only ever be underpowered or overpowered in some way.
I don't know, I'm still gonna play the game until match making takes too long for my tastes but this game is a shadow of it's former glory and it's reflected clearly in the disappointment continuously expressed by the community and the ever declining viewership numbers in it's streams and pro tournaments, really sad that the balance team deems this as acceptable.
As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One match is a very small sample size and nothing useful can be inferred from it. Seems like you're the one without any real data or proof.
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows:
ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths)
So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post.
On June 22 2017 18:04 avilo wrote:Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts.
If you discount the Mech player in the GSL finals maybe.
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows:
ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths)
So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post.
Where such a consensus comes from? (Legitimate question, I have no clue, and I am not trying to refute it either)
Honestly in PvZ I find the design much more problematic than balance. Atleast to me it seems like the matchup is way too asymmetrical. It feels like every game is some Hydra-Ling-Bane timing push that tries to kill protoss before they can get an unbeatable army.
On June 23 2017 18:26 DBooN wrote: Honestly in PvZ I find the design much more problematic than balance. Atleast to me it seems like the matchup is way too asymmetrical. It feels like every game is some Hydra-Ling-Bane timing push that tries to kill protoss before they can get an unbeatable army.
Yes it was a mistake to buff Hydras and Tempest. It would have been better to correct the actual problem (Carriers being too strong) instead.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
Thank you. We need more people with your attitude in this community.
This an awfull horribly entitled and totally self centered and conflictive attitude, we DON'T NEED more of this in the community.
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows:
ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths)
So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post.
Where such a consensus comes from? (Legitimate question, I have no clue, and I am not trying to refute it either)
It's mostly based off of what people, casters, and pros have been saying about the different maps, what players have been vetoing etc. PiG posted a video about the current map pool too:
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows:
ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths)
So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post.
Where such a consensus comes from? (Legitimate question, I have no clue, and I am not trying to refute it either)
It's mostly based off of what people, casters, and pros have been saying about the different maps, what players have been vetoing etc. PiG posted a video about the current map pool too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd48XgxIpC0
I though I watched this video already, but I haven't. Thank, I'll get a look at it.
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb.
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ?
What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ?
So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ?
Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ?
Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs.
As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again...
Feel like :
- Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again !
One match is a very small sample size and nothing useful can be inferred from it. Seems like you're the one without any real data or proof.
It's not how it works, if you maps are too strong for Zerg, you need to prove it, not me proving maps and balance isn't Zerg favored.
Imagine a pharmaceutical firm that releases a vaccine and say : "this vaccin works, i'm telling you".
But you answer : "Where are the proofs ?", "Actually, i see no effect vs placebo with my patients that got vaccinated", "and well, eventually, no patient has been cured among those that have received the vaccine" And they say : "Your sample is too small, it doesn't prove it's not working, do vaccin all your patients !" - Wait, what ? You must show me the proofs, not me proving you're wrong, before i vaccin them !
It's exactly what you did here.
And actually i can give you arguments too. You try to ignore the final like it's just one random match between two random dude.
But it's 7 maps with the best Protoss foreigner vs the best Zerg foreigner, it's much more significative that taking 2000 low GM and watching the winrates...
First it's stupid because MMR system tends to stabilize the player around 50% winrate, so if he is losing, he will get easier opponent until he beats them.
And only the best players results matter to look at balance, watching even the winrates of the sub top foreigner doesn't matter, it is just about the player skill, not the race he plays.
And if you take the stats of the tournament (the only one played on this mapool), PvZ winrates is 51.9% for 27 games, and it's here you can say : "it's small sample, i ignore the +1.9%, it's 50%, so pretty balanced", and not "Well, it's small sample, i'm telling you Zerg imba, even if these stats show 52% for P"
I hear everyday, "Zerg is imba", still waiting they win something....
I've seen no one here that has given us very solid proofs of why maps are zerg favored, and how they explain that ZvP was 50% in the recent tournament, it was just : People (and we have no idea on TL if the player is GM or bronze V) that says : "this map is OP".
So please don't tell me i'm the one that give no data, when everyone just give their biased opinions with nothing that support them :
Tell the truth, you try to discredit me because you don't like what i'm saying.
I don't mind not seeing swarmhosts changes yet since in the GSL finals we'll probably see mech from gumiho, and maybe he'll show us some way to make it work better. Right now mech is kind viable against zerg if you're able to kill a fair amount of drones early game, but that's somewhat of a design flaw. However I'd like to see some talk about TvP mech. It'd be nice to be able to play mech against toss without turtle-rushing BCs every game. And it'd also be nice to see pros like TY or Gumiho playing mech against toss.
What's much more concerning is that blizz doesn't seem to be trying anymore. The 2 guys still working full time for multi at blizzard can't pretend forever that anything is being done. Since the thor buff we've had no community feedback whatsoever, and this new one is just about little changes to the mappool. Nothing of interest is being talked here, community feedback updateused to be every week, now they're barely every month, and it's no just about mech. The burrowed fungal could be discussed, the raven's seeker could be discussed, the cyclone could be discussed, but it's pretty clear blizz isn't interested in investing any ressources in the multiplayer anymore.
On June 23 2017 15:12 jpg06051992 wrote: This is what community updates have come to?
Wow, I still play this game from time to time because I think glaring design problems aside, there is still fun elements to the game, but it get's harder and harder to care when games like LoL, Dota2, and Hots receive at least semi frequent bigger patches and lots of smaller, obvious QoL changes to their heroes/champs/game in general where as SC2 get's more voice packs and map tweaks.
All of those other games are constantly being improved at least to some degree and it keeps the game feeling fresh and alive. Stupid things like mass Reaper openings being not necessarily broken but definitely oppressive to defend. Hydralisks never being buffed specifically vs air units which they are bad against, only their HP buffed which did almost nothing to make them stronger against Phoenixes which murder them on bonus damage or Carriers which just seem to murder anything outside of a huge Corruptor/Queen fleet and only pushed them over the edge to being overpowered vs. Protoss ground armies. Mech never being tuned to be any better against Protoss, Swarm Hosts never being removed from the game even though due to their stupid free unit design are clearly a cancer unit that can only ever be underpowered or overpowered in some way.
I don't know, I'm still gonna play the game until match making takes too long for my tastes but this game is a shadow of it's former glory and it's reflected clearly in the disappointment continuously expressed by the community and the ever declining viewership numbers in it's streams and pro tournaments, really sad that the balance team deems this as acceptable.
yea basically this its way more fun being a casual and just playing the game from time to time. being so invested in this game is a waste when other games are so much better in just about every way. spent 6 years caring way to much about updates an patches, now i just play and whatever happens, happens and its so much better.
Serral wins maps with big to colossal zerg advantage, his victory with worst chances was Seqencer, where he got 54% Neeb wins any map with close chances, one map against overwhelming odds (2:1 on Ascension to Aiur) and final map against big disadvantage.
You can clearly see about balance. Protoss needs a lot of help, and map pool is one of reason for that. Neeb winning in such harsh environment is a heroic overcome.
If Soo won't find very specific timings, GSL final will be one-sided.
He hid his strat + not really focus, he lost all of his SH to bodyblock please
Why do you think he wasn't focus? I smell emty words and abuse to great player Soo is. I have no doubt about his professionalism and that he plays every match with focus and passion, have you? Please.
On June 24 2017 07:44 DieuCure wrote: You can underplay, especially in a situation like this.
You can for sure. Are you about to accuse Soo of intentional loss? This is strong accusation for sure, do you have any evidence?
I myself I find such allegations offensive. We should respect players a little more, for their sportsmanship including. This is a possibility but not the only one and definitely not the first one in the list.
I think it was a mistake on gumiho part not to play classic
He played what is the strongest in his arsenal, and not a hidden ace. Gumiho is very well known for mech style in LOTV.
Also, we are talking about GSL finalist's viper/SH was rolled over by a mech) Any speculations about SH is a hard counter to mech seems unfounded and stupid)
Rofl not intentional loss but he wasnt at 100% for sure, if Real Madrid have got a random championship match the same week as Champions league finals ( ye i know it cant happened but it's for the image ), you really think they will play the championship with the same desire, the same commitment, the same players as CL finals ?
No.
Is it intentional loss ?
No.
Dont be hysterical, and use your brain sometimes please.
Same for cycling with the Criterium du dauphiné before the TDF.
On June 24 2017 09:03 DieuCure wrote: Rofl not intentional loss but he wasnt at 100% for sure, if Real Madrid have got a random championship match the same week as Champions league finals ( ye i know it cant happened but it's for the image ), you really think they will play the championship with the same desire, the same commitment, the same players as CL finals ?
No.
Is it intentional loss ?
No.
Dont be hysterical, and use your brain sometimes please.
Same for cycling with the Criterium du dauphiné before the TDF.
Irrelevant example for many reasons. You really have hard times with respect not only to players but even here, on TL. Such bad manners and stupid comments have nothing to do with discussion. If you are too stupid to understand the fact that Soo playing not on 100% and mech are hard countered by 1 unit is totally differen statements... you are just too stupid to understand this. End of story.
On June 23 2017 08:50 mizenhauer wrote: Overgrowth, Daybreak, Frost, kss, Newkirk, Ascension to Aiur and Whirlwind map pool please
Nah, everyone and their mother is sick to death of half those maps
Maps like that make for good macro games. A lot of people miss maps like akilon wastes, daybreak, and those style of maps. Made for way better games imo.
Most of the maps nowadays have ridiculous 3rd/4th bases to take which is already bad enough with LOTV economy.
Which btw...why is there no discussion about bringing back 1500 mineral patches? That would stop a lot of the mega aggro play from dominating in LOTV and you can come back easier into games because harrassment isn't as strong when your bases don't dry up so quickly.
Protoss/Mech are also inherently made better with 1500 patches because you don't have to extend across the entire map as quickly to max out. I mean...this is very obvious stuff. Why don't Protosses themselves mention or talk about 1500 mineral patches? It would bring back actual macro games and more HOTS style gameplay.
Gumiho 3-0'ed Soo with pure mech, against late game Viper/SH comps
If Soo won't find very specific timings, GSL final will be one-sided.
Just saying, any professional Starcraft player would have to be one hell of an idiot to go all-out in an online tourney that is very literally a few days before GSL finals.
Highly likely that both soO and Gumiho were hiding strats. The fact that soO lost simply implies he hid more.
The real test is of course the offline Bo7 in 8 hours.
On June 24 2017 09:03 DieuCure wrote: Rofl not intentional loss but he wasnt at 100% for sure, if Real Madrid have got a random championship match the same week as Champions league finals ( ye i know it cant happened but it's for the image ), you really think they will play the championship with the same desire, the same commitment, the same players as CL finals ?
No.
Is it intentional loss ?
No.
Dont be hysterical, and use your brain sometimes please.
Same for cycling with the Criterium du dauphiné before the TDF.
Irrelevant example for many reasons. You really have hard times with respect not only to players but even here, on TL. Such bad manners and stupid comments have nothing to do with discussion. If you are too stupid to understand the fact that Soo playing not on 100% and mech are hard countered by 1 unit is totally differen statements... you are just too stupid to understand this. End of story.
OK and which reasons ?
You are fooling yourself acting like an histeric persona saying I'm disrespecting soO because you can't understand that things have different issues, and believing you are a better person than me just because you are very credulous, innocent.
I just said that he wasnt at his max and hid some counter and you came out of your hinges by accusing me of anything because of your extremist interpretation.
On June 22 2017 16:31 MockHamill wrote: Swarm Hosts? Carriers in team games?
Maybe address the larger issues first that matters for 99.9% of the ladder players instead of just focusing on the top 20 pro players?
Prioritizing pro players and ignoring the life of normal ladder players is what caused the SC2 decline. Just because Swarm Hosts are not an issue for the top 10 Terran on the planet (since they almost always play bio anyway) does not make this ok. Mech being dead due to a single unit is not ok.
Team play (which is a huge part of SC2) is currently in an awful state due to mass Carriers every game. Since Carriers are not used much on pro level a Carrier nerf would improve the ladder life for a huge portion of the SC2 players without screwing up pro level balance.
Every single time, every community feedback, there is a guy asking for adjustment of balance to fit its own playstyle. It still makes no sense. Guess what, I like playing lurkers vs terran: is it efficient? Not so much, not too bad either, but I kind of like it playing agressive lurker against bio. Would it help me to buff it to make it more viable against bio? Sure, then what? I'd gain maybe a league, then it would be something else that prevent me to progress.
Whatever the race, whatever your playstyle, the main limitation of what your perceive as balance is your own skill. Let's say we remove SwarmHost : you'll feel good, you're going to go from plat to diamond, or diamond to master, whatever. Then you're going to hit again your own limitations of your skill in the game, and you're going to get beaten by good Viper control, or Nyddus, or Hydralisk strength, and you're going to be exactly as the state of mind as you are today.
On June 24 2017 09:03 DieuCure wrote: Rofl not intentional loss but he wasnt at 100% for sure, if Real Madrid have got a random championship match the same week as Champions league finals ( ye i know it cant happened but it's for the image ), you really think they will play the championship with the same desire, the same commitment, the same players as CL finals ?
No.
Is it intentional loss ?
No.
Dont be hysterical, and use your brain sometimes please.
Same for cycling with the Criterium du dauphiné before the TDF.
Irrelevant example for many reasons. You really have hard times with respect not only to players but even here, on TL. Such bad manners and stupid comments have nothing to do with discussion. If you are too stupid to understand the fact that Soo playing not on 100% and mech are hard countered by 1 unit is totally differen statements... you are just too stupid to understand this. End of story.
OK and which reasons ?
First, metaphors can't prove or refute anything. Second, we talked about very specific thing - mech viability in late game vs Z. How on earth your fantasy about football connected to the point?
Anyway, real world dispel any fallacies and now you should talk about real things without discourtesy.
I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
So you say something won't work once people have adapted, but you're asking to nerf something because you don't want to adapt?
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
So you say something won't work once people have adapted, but you're asking to nerf something because you don't want to adapt?
I am saying mech is almost impossible to play if the opponent abuses Swarm Hosts and build support units for them. But as long as Zerg do not build Swarm Hosts mech is viable. Korean Zergs are behind the meta and when they catch up mech will be dead.
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
So you say something won't work once people have adapted, but you're asking to nerf something because you don't want to adapt?
I am saying mech is almost impossible to play if the opponent abuses Swarm Hosts and build support units for them. But as long as Zerg do not build Swarm Hosts mech is viable. Korean Zergs are behind the meta and when they catch up mech will be dead.
I guess your ladder opponents are just a level above soO
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
So you say something won't work once people have adapted, but you're asking to nerf something because you don't want to adapt?
I am saying mech is almost impossible to play if the opponent abuses Swarm Hosts and build support units for them. But as long as Zerg do not build Swarm Hosts mech is viable. Korean Zergs are behind the meta and when they catch up mech will be dead.
I guess your ladder opponents are just a level above soO
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
Except Thor drops are countered by Swarm Hosts/Hydra or Swarm Hosts/Corruptor. It works right now but it will not work once the Korean Zergs have adapted.
So you say something won't work once people have adapted, but you're asking to nerf something because you don't want to adapt?
I am saying mech is almost impossible to play if the opponent abuses Swarm Hosts and build support units for them. But as long as Zerg do not build Swarm Hosts mech is viable. Korean Zergs are behind the meta and when they catch up mech will be dead.
I guess your ladder opponents are just a level above soO
Not in skill but in meta, yes.
re ductio ad absurdum. thanks for the laugh though. Swarmhosts are already a solved problem.
the game is fine... the entire genre is in decline and there is nothing anyone can do about it... it goes beyond the scope of in-game dynamics. Namco and Data East could not stop the multibillion dollar dot-eating-maze game genre from declining. same shit .. different decade. Now if you'll excuse me i'm trying to finish #1 in this season's Pacman Championship Edition ladder contest.
No ghosts (like 4 or so) were made in the ascension to Aiur game to snipe preferably spellcasters. As we all know snipe is about as ultimate as it gets for cost-efficiency.
SoO barely had any vipers in lategame he had around 3 or so at time. The real counter to extreme lategame Mech Terran is mass abduct, clearly not broodlords and mass corruptor as we were shown. No wonder when you think about it for 2 seconds.
That BC tactic was obviously really cool and all, but all it takes are some burrowed infestors to neural them and it's bye bye Battlecruisers. Of course SoO would have done this if he had mastered the meta completely. For good reason he hasn't because there is barely anyone who plays like Gumiho.
So in short it's quite possible that both Gumiho and SoO haven't mastered the extreme lategame as much as you might believe.
Lets hope Gumiho inspired the koreans to play more mech, then the holes it has as a playstyle will surely be more apparent. Plebeian opinion means nothing to people after all.
they both know 100X more about the extreme lategame (played at their very high APM and multitasking level ) than any one in this thread. of course, if any one in this thread defeats either them in a BO7 i'll concede i was incorrect.
both players were doing feints and counters and reading the reactions to their feints. etc etc etc. again though .. anyone with a 2 sentence "solution" to beating either of these guys is welcome to fly to Seoul and pick up some easy money.
On June 25 2017 07:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they both know 100X more about the extreme lategame (played at their very high APM and multitasking level ) than any one in this thread. of course, if any one in this thread defeats either them in a BO7 i'll concede i was incorrect.
both players were doing feints and counters and reading the reactions to their feints. etc etc etc. again though .. anyone with a 2 sentence "solution" to beating either of these guys is welcome to fly to Seoul and pick up some easy money.
I know right.
"My low masters opponents are way ahead in the meta"
If swarm hosts were this magic bullet, you can be certain that they would be built.
On June 24 2017 20:48 MockHamill wrote: I wonder why the Korean meta is so behind the EU/NA one?
Obviously the Koreans are much better players but it took a long time before Korean Terrans started to go mass Ravens. Now it seems Korean Zergs still not realize how broken Swarm Hosts are against mech.
I predict that GuMiho mech will force the Korean Zerg to learn how to use Swarm Hosts. Then mech will be extinct once again. Then in mid 2018 Swarm Hosts will be finally be nerfed even though they have been OP all this time.
I will link back to this post once we are there.
They don't go SH against GuMiho because he goes thor drops every game to counter SH play.
They aren't going swarmhosts because they don't understand SH are > Mech on the current patch.
Soo built zero swarmhost during the finals which shows his compete lack of understanding of Z vs Mech.
Thor drop does nothing versus a good swarmhost user because he'll have hydra or corruptor with the swarmhost.
I think there's even a game of elazer recently owning gumiho's mech with swarmhosts. Korean Zergs are honestly always incredibly far behind meta when it comes to playing versus mech. But it's understandable because very few people go mech at all due to things like swarmhosts currently being how they are.
"Player A anticipates that Player B is going for X, Player B anticipates that Player A will anticipate that Player B is going for X, so Player B instead chooses to go for Y" happens quite often. And oftentimes "Player A" will anticipate this and attempt to counter "Player B's" choice of Y. And, even then, it's possible that Player B will anticipate this and go for Z instead. Some people seem to assume that none of this happened. And, Korean players do use Swarm Hosts. Leenock, for one, used them for several months on ladder against Protoss and Terran players and iirc so did Solar. They don't seem to use them as often anymore, so it could be that the meta shifts in different ways in Korea than it does for NA and EU and it's entirely possible that their meta isn't "behind" but simply on a different path, or even so far ahead that it looks like a meta that NA/EU experienced in the past and has shifted out of but not back into... But perhaps that's too deep for a late night TL post...
Now for some logical analysis:
"Making Swarm Hosts is the only way for a player to show their understanding of Mech." "soO did not make Swarm Hosts." "Therefore, soO does not understand Mech." This is only logical if the first statement is true, which it is not proved to be.
On June 25 2017 19:11 blunderfulguy wrote: "Player A anticipates that Player B is going for X, Player B anticipates that Player A will anticipate that Player B is going for X, so Player B instead chooses to go for Y" happens quite often. And oftentimes "Player A" will anticipate this and attempt to counter "Player B's" choice of Y. And, even then, it's possible that Player B will anticipate this and go for Z instead. Some people seem to assume that none of this happened. And, Korean players do use Swarm Hosts. Leenock, for one, used them for several months on ladder against Protoss and Terran players and iirc so did Solar. They don't seem to use them as often anymore, so it could be that the meta shifts in different ways in Korea than it does for NA and EU and it's entirely possible that their meta isn't "behind" but simply on a different path, or even so far ahead that it looks like a meta that NA/EU experienced in the past and has shifted out of but not back into... But perhaps that's too deep for a late night TL post...
Now for some logical analysis:
"Making Swarm Hosts is the only way for a player to show their understanding of Mech." "soO did not make Swarm Hosts." "Therefore, soO does not understand Mech." This is only logical if the first statement is true, which it is not proved to be.
Why are we still having this discussion. Swarm host vs. mech is not an absolute solution
Yes, swarm hosts counter turtle mech. Which is why we don't see pro mech players camp in their bases. Pro players are active with their mech units which makes Swarm hosts way less powerful, and sometimes meaningless. Mech players these days use medivacs to compensate for the immobility of the mech units, like Thors. As well as being very active with hellion runbies and other forms of harass.
Gumiho was active with his thor drops which swarm hosts can't counter, which is why soO didn't go for swarm hosts. In the IEM, Gumiho was active with his banshees which also makes swarm hosts laughable, which is why Dark went for roach hydra viper (1-1 vs the mech style of Gumiho then).
The mech players on the ladder prefer to camp in their base, which is why swarm hosts destroy them, but pro mech players know that, playing a way more active style, which makes swarm hosts way less powerful. Swarm hosts are necessary to prevent 1 hour games where the mech players sit and camp, but its great as I don't want to play these games as well as yawn while watching how a mech players adds another tower to his mech fortress.
On June 25 2017 13:36 avilo wrote: They aren't going swarmhosts because they don't understand SH are > Mech on the current patch.
Soo built zero swarmhost during the finals which shows his compete lack of understanding of Z vs Mech.
Thor drop does nothing versus a good swarmhost user because he'll have hydra or corruptor with the swarmhost.
this is part of your "Avilo character" comedy routine right?
On June 25 2017 21:17 bulya wrote: Yes, swarm hosts counter turtle mech. Which is why we don't see pro mech players camp in their bases. Pro players are active with their mech units which makes Swarm hosts way less powerful, and sometimes meaningless. Mech players these days use medivacs to compensate for the immobility of the mech units, like Thors. As well as being very active with hellion runbies and other forms of harass.
Gumiho was active with his thor drops which swarm hosts can't counter, which is why soO didn't go for swarm hosts. In the IEM, Gumiho was active with his banshees which also makes swarm hosts laughable, which is why Dark went for roach hydra viper (1-1 vs the mech style of Gumiho then).
The mech players on the ladder prefer to camp in their base, which is why swarm hosts destroy them, but pro mech players know that, playing a way more active style, which makes swarm hosts way less powerful. Swarm hosts are necessary to prevent 1 hour games where the mech players sit and camp, but its great as I don't want to play these games as well as yawn while watching how a mech players adds another tower to his mech fortress.
good points here. thx for posting i like to Mech myself. my apm and multitasking aren't the greatest so i sometimes resort to turtling and i get destroyed by swarmhosts. but, its clearly my issue for playing so passively.
Other turtle mechers in this thread want Swarmhosts removed from the game. I realize i'm losing to Swarmhosts because of my weak passive play and I'm just not good enough. Others delude themselves into believing they know more about the TvZ meta than the best players in the world.
There are honest Terran Mech players out there. Not all of us are delusional zombies taking at face value everything twitch streamers say.
On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote: Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
He does use SH a lot, but it's rarely more than 8. He keeps his SH count below 8, but he is very active with them and has a great sense of the swarm cd.
However, I recall Solar's SH getting caught with their pants down once, and he totally lost that game afterward.
On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote: Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
But Inno beat the shit out of Solar with mech, twice, in SSL. He didn't make a single SH afaik.
To be fair, Inno's wildly successful Hellion/Banshee openings deserve most of the credit. But mech needs some kind of aggessive opening to kill lots of drones and that's one of them.
On June 26 2017 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote: Solar totally owns Mech with SH. But Solar is one of the few koreans that think out of the box.
But Inno beat the shit out of Solar with mech, twice, in SSL. He didn't make a single SH afaik. To be fair, Inno's wildly successful Hellion/Banshee openings deserve most of the credit. But mech needs some kind of aggessive opening to kill lots of drones and that's one of them.
usually that seems to be the case. however, Gumiho won game 1 without killing lots of drones at the start.
because SC2 is a good RTS game these "absolutes" have all sorts of exceptions and qualifications which makes on the fly , in-game decision making crucial because every situation is unique.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
. That is my personal favorite map in the current map pool.
