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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On June 23 2017 08:50 mizenhauer wrote: Overgrowth, Daybreak, Frost, kss, Newkirk, Ascension to Aiur and Whirlwind map pool please Ya know I could get behind King Sejong Station in this patch, maybe with some tweaks. But the rest? GAG!  Replace Whirlwind or Frost with literally anything else and swap Newkirk with New Gettysburg it might not be too bad. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On June 22 2017 18:04 avilo wrote: Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts. Strategies work a lot better when your opponent can't blind counter them. That's working as intended. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
Wow, I still play this game from time to time because I think glaring design problems aside, there is still fun elements to the game, but it get's harder and harder to care when games like LoL, Dota2, and Hots receive at least semi frequent bigger patches and lots of smaller, obvious QoL changes to their heroes/champs/game in general where as SC2 get's more voice packs and map tweaks. All of those other games are constantly being improved at least to some degree and it keeps the game feeling fresh and alive. Stupid things like mass Reaper openings being not necessarily broken but definitely oppressive to defend. Hydralisks never being buffed specifically vs air units which they are bad against, only their HP buffed which did almost nothing to make them stronger against Phoenixes which murder them on bonus damage or Carriers which just seem to murder anything outside of a huge Corruptor/Queen fleet and only pushed them over the edge to being overpowered vs. Protoss ground armies. Mech never being tuned to be any better against Protoss, Swarm Hosts never being removed from the game even though due to their stupid free unit design are clearly a cancer unit that can only ever be underpowered or overpowered in some way. I don't know, I'm still gonna play the game until match making takes too long for my tastes but this game is a shadow of it's former glory and it's reflected clearly in the disappointment continuously expressed by the community and the ever declining viewership numbers in it's streams and pro tournaments, really sad that the balance team deems this as acceptable. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ? What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ? So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ? Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ? Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs. As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again... Feel like : - Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again ! | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1949 Posts
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb. No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ? What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ? So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ? Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ? Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs. As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again... Feel like : - Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again ! One match is a very small sample size and nothing useful can be inferred from it. Seems like you're the one without any real data or proof. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 23 2017 15:22 Tyrhanius wrote: As a Zerg, it's really infuriating to hear that just after Serral loses 3-4 vs Neeb. No race hasn't won any premier for this long in the whole SC2 history, but the balance team explain us that the map pool is too much Zerg favored, and they will fix that ? What does it mean that Serral doesn't deserve to win the 3 games ? But Neeb won 4 game despite he was underpowered ? So perfect balance should have been Neeb 4-0 Serral for the balance team ? Or maybe no Serral on final ? Each time Zerg wins a map, it seems it's because they're OP, but when T/P win (and they win more), it's because they're skilled ? Honestly i blame the foreigner casters that will say to everyone that "Zerg too strong", or "map pool too zerg favored", while they obviously all play P or T... and all the facts prove they're wrong.... but facts they don't care, they prefer feelings and opinions rather than any proofs. As a result, we have a race without any tournaments won since september 2016 about to be nerfed again... Feel like : - Is zerg dead ? - I think so - Great, I hate Zerg ! - Oh no i see him breathing ! - OMG shoot him again ! One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows: ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths) So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On June 22 2017 18:04 avilo wrote:Mech is seen very little, if at all in pro play. It's used maybe a few times in a boX series because the Zerg doesn't expect you to go mech so they blindly go ling bane muta, then realize it's mech, and are screwed because they didn't get roach warrne/hydra/swarmhosts. If you discount the Mech player in the GSL finals maybe. Don't you have fanboys to con out of their money? | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On June 23 2017 15:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One best of 7 no matter how important isn't a determiner of balance. Additionally the fact that zerg hasn't been doing well over the past months doesn't make it any less favoured in PvZ on the current map pool. The common consensus as to PvZ balance on these maps is as follows: ABYSSAL REEF - Slightly Protoss favoured ASCENSION TO AIUR - Zerg favoured BLOOD BOIL - Strongly Zerg favoured DEFENDER'S LANDING - Strongly Zerg favoured ODYSSEY - Zerg favoured PROXIMA STATION - Protoss favoured SEQUENCER - debatable (Protoss has an even stronger than usual late game on this map, whereas Zerg has a lot of play in the midgame due to all the different paths) So, "as a Zerg" could you please explain why you believe this consensus is wrong, rather than airing your delusions of persecution? For someone who likes facts over feeling and opinions, you aren't doing too well with that post. Where such a consensus comes from? (Legitimate question, I have no clue, and I am not trying to refute it either) | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On June 23 2017 18:26 DBooN wrote: Honestly in PvZ I find the design much more problematic than balance. Atleast to me it seems like the matchup is way too asymmetrical. It feels like every game is some Hydra-Ling-Bane timing push that tries to kill protoss before they can get an unbeatable army. Yes it was a mistake to buff Hydras and Tempest. It would have been better to correct the actual problem (Carriers being too strong) instead. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 23 2017 10:14 Lexender wrote: This an awfull horribly entitled and totally self centered and conflictive attitude, we DON'T NEED more of this in the community. What? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 23 2017 17:54 AbouSV wrote: Where such a consensus comes from? (Legitimate question, I have no clue, and I am not trying to refute it either) It's mostly based off of what people, casters, and pros have been saying about the different maps, what players have been vetoing etc. PiG posted a video about the current map pool too: | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
only zerg logic | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On June 24 2017 01:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote: It's mostly based off of what people, casters, and pros have been saying about the different maps, what players have been vetoing etc. PiG posted a video about the current map pool too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd48XgxIpC0 I though I watched this video already, but I haven't. Thank, I'll get a look at it. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On June 23 2017 15:34 mizenhauer wrote: One match is a very small sample size and nothing useful can be inferred from it. Seems like you're the one without any real data or proof. It's not how it works, if you maps are too strong for Zerg, you need to prove it, not me proving maps and balance isn't Zerg favored. Imagine a pharmaceutical firm that releases a vaccine and say : "this vaccin works, i'm telling you". But you answer : "Where are the proofs ?", "Actually, i see no effect vs placebo with my patients that got vaccinated", "and well, eventually, no patient has been cured among those that have received the vaccine" And they say : "Your sample is too small, it doesn't prove it's not working, do vaccin all your patients !" - Wait, what ? You must show me the proofs, not me proving you're wrong, before i vaccin them ! It's exactly what you did here. And actually i can give you arguments too. You try to ignore the final like it's just one random match between two random dude. But it's 7 maps with the best Protoss foreigner vs the best Zerg foreigner, it's much more significative that taking 2000 low GM and watching the winrates... First it's stupid because MMR system tends to stabilize the player around 50% winrate, so if he is losing, he will get easier opponent until he beats them. And only the best players results matter to look at balance, watching even the winrates of the sub top foreigner doesn't matter, it is just about the player skill, not the race he plays. And if you take the stats of the tournament (the only one played on this mapool), PvZ winrates is 51.9% for 27 games, and it's here you can say : "it's small sample, i ignore the +1.9%, it's 50%, so pretty balanced", and not "Well, it's small sample, i'm telling you Zerg imba, even if these stats show 52% for P" I hear everyday, "Zerg is imba", still waiting they win something.... I've seen no one here that has given us very solid proofs of why maps are zerg favored, and how they explain that ZvP was 50% in the recent tournament, it was just : People (and we have no idea on TL if the player is GM or bronze V) that says : "this map is OP". So please don't tell me i'm the one that give no data, when everyone just give their biased opinions with nothing that support them : Tell the truth, you try to discredit me because you don't like what i'm saying. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
However I'd like to see some talk about TvP mech. It'd be nice to be able to play mech against toss without turtle-rushing BCs every game. And it'd also be nice to see pros like TY or Gumiho playing mech against toss. What's much more concerning is that blizz doesn't seem to be trying anymore. The 2 guys still working full time for multi at blizzard can't pretend forever that anything is being done. Since the thor buff we've had no community feedback whatsoever, and this new one is just about little changes to the mappool. Nothing of interest is being talked here, community feedback updateused to be every week, now they're barely every month, and it's no just about mech. The burrowed fungal could be discussed, the raven's seeker could be discussed, the cyclone could be discussed, but it's pretty clear blizz isn't interested in investing any ressources in the multiplayer anymore. | ||
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IMOrion
24 Posts
On June 23 2017 15:12 jpg06051992 wrote: This is what community updates have come to? Wow, I still play this game from time to time because I think glaring design problems aside, there is still fun elements to the game, but it get's harder and harder to care when games like LoL, Dota2, and Hots receive at least semi frequent bigger patches and lots of smaller, obvious QoL changes to their heroes/champs/game in general where as SC2 get's more voice packs and map tweaks. All of those other games are constantly being improved at least to some degree and it keeps the game feeling fresh and alive. Stupid things like mass Reaper openings being not necessarily broken but definitely oppressive to defend. Hydralisks never being buffed specifically vs air units which they are bad against, only their HP buffed which did almost nothing to make them stronger against Phoenixes which murder them on bonus damage or Carriers which just seem to murder anything outside of a huge Corruptor/Queen fleet and only pushed them over the edge to being overpowered vs. Protoss ground armies. Mech never being tuned to be any better against Protoss, Swarm Hosts never being removed from the game even though due to their stupid free unit design are clearly a cancer unit that can only ever be underpowered or overpowered in some way. I don't know, I'm still gonna play the game until match making takes too long for my tastes but this game is a shadow of it's former glory and it's reflected clearly in the disappointment continuously expressed by the community and the ever declining viewership numbers in it's streams and pro tournaments, really sad that the balance team deems this as acceptable. yea basically this its way more fun being a casual and just playing the game from time to time. being so invested in this game is a waste when other games are so much better in just about every way. spent 6 years caring way to much about updates an patches, now i just play and whatever happens, happens and its so much better. | ||
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FarFarSeer
13 Posts
Abyssal Reef LE: TvZ 49.3%, ZvP 48.4%, PvT 46.6% Ascension to Aiur LE : TvZ 52.5%, ZvP 58.7% , PvT 47.3% Blood Boil LE TVZ 50.0%, ZvP 66.7%(!), PvT 41.7% Defender's Landing LE TvZ 50.0%, ZvP 86.4%(!!), PvT 40.0% Odyssey LE TvZ 44.3%, ZvP 56.3%, PvT 51.2% Proxima Station LE TvZ 53.8%, ZvP 51.4%, PvT 54.3% Sequencer LE TvZ 52.8%, ZvP 54.3%, PvT 35.0%(!) Correlation with Neeb vs Serral match: Abyssal Reef - Serral 48% - Neeb 52%, Neeb wins Blood Boil - Serral 66% - Neeb 34%, Serral wins Proxima Station - Serral 51% - Neeb 49%, Neeb wins Ascension to Aiur - Serral 58% - Neeb 42%, Neeb wins Sequencer - Serral 54% - Neeb 46%, Serral wins Defender's Landing - Serral 86% - Neeb 14%, Serral wins Odyssey - Serral 56% - Neeb 44%, Neeb wins Serral wins maps with big to colossal zerg advantage, his victory with worst chances was Seqencer, where he got 54% Neeb wins any map with close chances, one map against overwhelming odds (2:1 on Ascension to Aiur) and final map against big disadvantage. Last seasons from Aligulac List 191: June 21, 2017 PvT 41.58% 58.42% PvZ 41.98% 58.02% TvZ 46.92% 53.08% List 190: June 7, 2017 PvT 48.29% 51.71% PvZ 45.02% 54.98% TvZ 49.23% 50.77% List 189: May 24, 2017 PvT 42.76% 57.24% PvZ 46.98% 53.02% TvZ 42.74% 57.26% List 188: May 10, 2017 PvT 47.07% 52.93% PvZ 49.92% 50.08% TvZ 47.38% 52.62% List 187: April 26, 2017 PvT 52.98% 47.02% PvZ 41.92% 58.08% TvZ 51.20% 48.80% You can clearly see about balance. Protoss needs a lot of help, and map pool is one of reason for that. Neeb winning in such harsh environment is a heroic overcome. About mech being viable on top level: soO vs. GuMiho - ZvT - Olimoleague #93 + Show Spoiler + Gumiho 3-0'ed Soo with pure mech, against late game Viper/SH comps If Soo won't find very specific timings, GSL final will be one-sided. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
If Soo won't find very specific timings, GSL final will be one-sided. He hid his strat + not really focus, he lost all of his SH to bodyblock please | ||
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FarFarSeer
13 Posts
On June 24 2017 07:28 DieuCure wrote: He hid his strat + not really focus, he lost all of his SH to bodyblock please Why do you think he wasn't focus? I smell emty words and abuse to great player Soo is. I have no doubt about his professionalism and that he plays every match with focus and passion, have you? Please. | ||
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