Code S returns this week with two groups. As the playoffs draw ever closer, the pressure is on for the players to dive in and give it their all. Whatever the outcome, the eventual champion will be found among this group of 16 players. The time is also ripe to start betting on the potential winners. Will INnoVation live up to his fearsome reputation? Will Stats manage to advance on two fronts simultaneously? Might we see another fresh face raise the trophy? Meanwhile, SSL’s Challenge Division’s second phase continues with a single round of matches, while we wait with bated breath for the Post Season in just over a week’s time.
Stats’s Long Halftime Walk
Can Stats really pull it off? Historically, focusing on two different star leagues at the same time has been extremely difficult, especially as we run deeper into the tournaments. Even so, there’s something special about daring to hope to see a record matched. Stats is in both the round of 16 in Code S and in the Post Season in SSL, which means that another star league title is a prospect that’s certainly on the horizon.
Is it possible to see him advance in both tournaments? Is it even feasible? And most of all, is there a world where he could potentially reach both finals? He only has to win two matches for the SSL finals, and potentially only four matches for the GSL finals. Theoretically, winning all six sets is doable, but is it within practical limits? The fans cry out that Stats has been in a slump recently, but what’s certain is that he’s managed to make another deep run in both of the hardest tournaments on the planet. It’s the end result that weighs more heavily than any possible misstep on the way. Somewhere in the back of his mind he has to know that he could be on the cusp of something truly historic.
Machines of Loving Grace
If Stats is all about the upcoming journey and its possibilities, INnoVation has already all but arrived. We’ve been hailing the Terran as the cream of the crop all throughout the year, but a title has so far remained just out of reach. He’s already comfortably in the grand finals of SSL, while his road to the Code S finals is not quite finished yet. Over the coming weeks he has to prepare for both the eventual other finalist, as well as his opponents in Code S. As mentioned, splitting one’s attention between two star leagues can be difficult, so INnoVation will need to polish up on his hyperthreading.
He’s also in the arguably most difficult group of the Ro16, going up against Classic and TY. But INnoVation knows instinctively that the best results always require hard work, and he’s not afraid to put in the effort. While debate still rages on whether he’s a mortal being or not, he will without a doubt always show up when it matters.
Rounding Out the Trifecta
Of course the third player to deserve his share of the attention is ByuL. Like the Protoss and the Terran detailed above, he too has managed to reach both Code S round of 16 and SSL Post Season. But unlike Stats and INnoVation, ByuL has spent most of his career firmly just below the very highest rung of the competition. While still lacking a big title to his name, the Zerg has had a famous resurgence this year. He’s proven himself quite capable to go toe-to-toe with the best of them. He’s risen to the top while other Zergs have languished. It’s been two years and one entire expansion since his three second place finishes, so it’s about time he makes a convincing case for himself.
The SSL Post Season won’t start until next week, but these three players are all playing their Code S matches this week. Each of them face different kind of obstacles on their way to greatness, and it remains to be seen who will manage to cling on to dear life. We like to follow the great, and we love to flock to the best, and that mythical dual-title is there for the taking, for all three players.
Six Men Enter, One Man Advances
Only two days of matches remain in the SSL Challenge Division’s second phase. While saying that Ryung has struggled is an understatement of the year, he’s now also the only one without a round of 16 Code S spot. Perhaps we live in a universe where this could have given him an actual advantage over the others, but with a 0-3 score line, the writing’s on the wall. Meanwhile, herO is leading the pack with a comfortable 3-0 match score. With only Dear and TY to go, he should be the favorite to earn the coveted Premier Division spot for the next season. On the other hand, this is SSL, where upsets are seen as the norm. Losing the next two matches would mean that the mid-listers pull ahead, so the pressure is still on.
Weekly Schedule:
Wed - Code S - Group A: Stats vs Trap / ByuL vs GuMiho Sat - Code S - Group B: aLive vs Classic / TY vs INnoVation Sat - SSL Challenge - herO vs Dear / Classic vs TY / ByuN vs Ryung
Every time immediately after Code S groups are announced and finalized, it’s a proud tradition to choose a single one as the most dangerous, as the most difficult. There’s prestige involved, be it imaginary or real, for any player having to wade through the toughest opposition to advance. Fans are also salivating at the thought of what are likely to be sheer great games. Following a favorite player as they face challenge after challenge on their way to the top is always exhilarating, so it’s understandable that one group should always stand above the others.
For the second season of this year’s Code S, in the Ro16 the famed and reviled Group of Death is not an easy pick, but popular consensus has deemed it Group B. With TY, Classic, INnoVation and yes, even aLive, the case is built on a solid foundation. As usual, two players will advance to the quarterfinals, while two players will have to bide their time until the next season. Thankfully this year there’s still one more to come.
aLive vs Classic
aLive’s form this year has been built on two things: his IEM Katowice run, including taking down INnoVation, and his legendary stage pajamas second place in the Super Tournament, again taking down INnoVation on the way. His advancement will almost certainly rely on being able to replicate his feat from those two tournaments. While Classic isn’t an easy opponent to start with, by any means, aLive’s TvP is his best match-up in 2017, both online and offline. Even so, the two have met three times this year, and aLive has only won a single BO1 against Classic in Shoutcraft Kings. He’s made a strong showing so far, but he’ll still need something more to make people remember that he does indeed exist.
Classic seems to have missed out on the resurgence that some of the other players have seen this year. A return to form seems elusive, with middling results both online and offline. In the previous season he made it to the Ro16, where he couldn’t overcome INnoVation and soO in Dark’s famous Group of SKT. This time he starts the day by going against aLive, and his offline PvT win rate is surprisingly formidable for the year. Compared to the Terran, however, he’s still searching for that crucial missing element that would enable his comeback.
TY vs INnoVation
At the start of the year, both Terrans were brimming with unbridled potential. In the end, it was TY who was the first to make good of the predictions, winning both IEM Katowice and WESG. A title had been a long time coming for the Terran, now he holds two. Of course, one could argue that both of them were non-Korean titles, and to prove his mettle for good, TY should have to win a Korean star league. Prestige matters, and there’s no more prestigious tournament than this. Curiously, TY was placed in his group by newly discovered team mate Stats. The Terran’s weakest match up for the year is TvT, so maybe the Splyce players know something that the rest of us don’t. Maybe TY has discovered a secret formula to reliably take down INnoVation. Maybe working with Stats again has given both of them newfound confidence in their abilities. Whatever the case, it remains to be seen whether the gamble pays off.
There was something peculiar happening in the group selection last Wednesday. In a group of 16 players, one seemed to stand out from the rest. Could it be that the others were displaying... fear? Arguably no one really wants to up against INnoVation, because there’s no doubt that he’s able to take down anyone. After narrowly missing out on the semifinals in the first season, the Eternal Terran is looking to make his mark once again. Topping the SSL Premier group as well as his Ro32 group, INnoVation’s one sole weakness for the year seems to be his TvT. If he’s been able to adapt his collective consciousness, there’s a very good chance that a victory here will carry him onward to the finals.
Surprised there isn't more of an exciting narrative for ByuL. Not only has he already been to simultaneous starleague finals, but considering where he's placed in both leagues atm I'd say he stands arguably the best shot out of the 3 of hitting dual finals this season.
5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
TaeJa has a solid claim for top 10. Top-3-ish is where you need a hefty dose of TL-bias to still go with TaeJa. Though that's largely irrelevant atm since Zest, INnoVation, ByuL, Maru, soO and so forth are the only ones still adding to their legacies (well maybe not Zest) and thus have a real opportunity to cement themselves as the unquestioned GOAT.
Inno is the closest, for instance if he wins GSL+SSL he will pretty much be able to claim GOAT without contest.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
I totally forgot about Classic when writing the comment tbh
Also I think the 9 week RR format for SSL with playoffs afterwards makes the runs harder than many tier 1 tournament runs in the past.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
I totally forgot about Classic when writing the comment tbh
Also I think the 9 week RR format for SSL with playoffs afterwards makes the runs harder than many tier 1 tournament runs in the past.
Qualifying was so gimmicky though. The main problem in my eyes is that the player representation in Premier was really lack luster because of it. You can't tell me that Zest, sOs or Patience played like they belonged while herO, TY, ByuN and, to a lesser degree, Classic were stuck in Challenge. Next season's event should be a far more well rounded affair. When I compare this tournament to any of the SSL's from 2015 (In my mind the hardest tournaments ever), I just can't put them on the same level (I also think the 2016 SSL's kind of have an asterisk as well).
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
In order to win SSL, a player must survive 9 Bo3s, plus up to 3 post-season Bo5/7 matches. To win GSL, a player goes through 4-6 Bo3s and 3 Bo5/7s. GIven that the caliber of players is pretty damn similar, I see no pressing reason to discount the SSL as significantly inferior to GSL.
You mentioned the dismal performances of sOs and Zest as giving other players easy matches, but it's not like GSL doesn't have easy matches either. There are almost always heavy favorites in the Ro32 and Ro16, guys like Losira, Dear, and Trap are not exactly superstars.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
I totally forgot about Classic when writing the comment tbh
Also I think the 9 week RR format for SSL with playoffs afterwards makes the runs harder than many tier 1 tournament runs in the past.
Qualifying was so gimmicky though. The main problem in my eyes is that the player representation in Premier was really lack luster because of it. You can't tell me that Zest, sOs or Patience played like they belonged while herO, TY, ByuN and, to a lesser degree, Classic were stuck in Challenge. Next season's event should be a far more well rounded affair. When I compare this tournament to any of the SSL's from 2015 (In my mind the hardest tournaments ever), I just can't put them on the same level (I also think the 2016 SSL's kind of have an asterisk as well).
I wouldn't call it gimmicky. A regular bracket qualifier, and then a regular offline group stage. Not much different from getting to the Ro16 in GSL, is it?
And yeah, Zest, sOs and Patience didn't really look like they belonged in Premier over those other players. But that's hindsight. Without looking at it in hindsight, I say Zest deserved to be in Premier after topping a group with herO, Dark and GuMiho in it. Sure, a bit into Premier it turned out they couldn't keep up with the other players. But you have that in GSL Ro16s all the time.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
In order to win SSL, a player must survive 9 Bo3s, plus up to 3 post-season Bo5/7 matches. To win GSL, a player goes through 4-6 Bo3s and 3 Bo5/7s. GIven that the caliber of players is pretty damn similar, I see no pressing reason to discount the SSL as significantly inferior to GSL.
You mentioned the dismal performances of sOs and Zest as giving other players easy matches, but it's not like GSL doesn't have easy matches either. There are almost always heavy favorites in the Ro32 and Ro16, guys like Losira, Dear, and Trap are not exactly superstars.
You can win SSL by going 8-4 in matches (with a +2 game score in the regular season(a low +/- like this is possible in GSL as well, but from memory it occurs less frequently, if at all, among players who win GSL's))... Just doesn't seem as difficult.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
In order to win SSL, a player must survive 9 Bo3s, plus up to 3 post-season Bo5/7 matches. To win GSL, a player goes through 4-6 Bo3s and 3 Bo5/7s. GIven that the caliber of players is pretty damn similar, I see no pressing reason to discount the SSL as significantly inferior to GSL.
You mentioned the dismal performances of sOs and Zest as giving other players easy matches, but it's not like GSL doesn't have easy matches either. There are almost always heavy favorites in the Ro32 and Ro16, guys like Losira, Dear, and Trap are not exactly superstars.
You can win SSL by going 8-4 in matches (with a +2 game score in the regular season(a low +/- like this is possible in GSL as well, but from memory it occurs less frequently, if at all, among players who win GSL's))... Just doesn't seem as difficult.
The lowest possible score for winning GSL is 7-2 matches and 19-16 games. Dunno how often this happens though.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
In order to win SSL, a player must survive 9 Bo3s, plus up to 3 post-season Bo5/7 matches. To win GSL, a player goes through 4-6 Bo3s and 3 Bo5/7s. GIven that the caliber of players is pretty damn similar, I see no pressing reason to discount the SSL as significantly inferior to GSL.
You mentioned the dismal performances of sOs and Zest as giving other players easy matches, but it's not like GSL doesn't have easy matches either. There are almost always heavy favorites in the Ro32 and Ro16, guys like Losira, Dear, and Trap are not exactly superstars.
You can win SSL by going 8-4 in matches (with a +2 game score in the regular season(a low +/- like this is possible in GSL as well, but from memory it occurs less frequently, if at all, among players who win GSL's))... Just doesn't seem as difficult.
I was gonna say, GSL isn't safe from that. In theory you can win GSL by going 19-16. That's about what Stats would have if he made it to the finals (before even playing those). I think what degrades it a bit in the end is the playoff format that puts a person straight to the finals. If the playoffs were a top 4 bracket - let alone a double elimination bracket - it would be another story.
On May 22 2017 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: 5 starleague finals total and pulling off another dual run would be insane in its own right. Rockets him to top 10 GOAT status easily.
Eh close one. Mvp, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, MC, NesTea, Polt, MMA, Zest, INnoVation, Maru, Rain, soO, sOs and if you have enough Liquid bias also TaeJa all have legitimate claims to being top 10 GOAT. It's hard to say where to place him if he makes a run like that. I'd still put him behind soO, and I'd put soO in the lower half (although I guess 6-10 is technically the higher half?) of the top 10.
Not to insert too much nitpicking, but Classic's career is almost certainly more impressive than ByuL's if ByuL "only" loses in both finals (especially because this years SSL is a Starleague like the Hot6Cup is a GSL (which it technically is given how Mvp's GSL wins are calculated(Congratulations herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL :/ ))). This is an interesting case because in my opinion winning a final is an overrated barometer for a player's greatness. But as I see it, ByuL's success was achieved in a very isolated period (I don't count his WCS America run as particularly impressive), whereas Classic was an elite player for a much longer period of time. The topic of how much 1st vs 2nd place matters is one I plan on investigating at length at some point. Maybe when I take a break from writing fan fics I can get back to it.
EDIT: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
In order to win SSL, a player must survive 9 Bo3s, plus up to 3 post-season Bo5/7 matches. To win GSL, a player goes through 4-6 Bo3s and 3 Bo5/7s. GIven that the caliber of players is pretty damn similar, I see no pressing reason to discount the SSL as significantly inferior to GSL.
You mentioned the dismal performances of sOs and Zest as giving other players easy matches, but it's not like GSL doesn't have easy matches either. There are almost always heavy favorites in the Ro32 and Ro16, guys like Losira, Dear, and Trap are not exactly superstars.
You can win SSL by going 8-4 in matches (with a +2 game score in the regular season(a low +/- like this is possible in GSL as well, but from memory it occurs less frequently, if at all, among players who win GSL's))... Just doesn't seem as difficult.
I was gonna say, GSL isn't safe from that. In theory you can win GSL by going 19-16. That's about what Stats would have if he made it to the finals (before even playing those). I think what degrades it a bit in the end is the playoff format that puts a person straight to the finals. If the playoffs were a top 4 bracket - let alone a double elimination bracket - it would be another story.
I acknowledged that it is possible. As someone who does a lot of research for articles, I can tell you it isn't worth looking into to confirm what the game win percentage of all GSL finalists are. It's more important to look at winning a Starleague by going 8-4, whereas the worst record possible which can win a GSL is 7-2.
I hate to look at really small sample sizes, but since the focus is the same player and the seasons are adjacent, here is Stats' journey to winning GSL S1 and what would be required of him to win SSL S1. Take it with a grain of salt, because I doubt my point would be as cleanly illustrated with other past GSL's.
Stats won GSL by beating: Ryung 2x, ByuN, ByuL 2x, INnoVation, soO and losing to TY. He could win SSL by beating, Zest, Patience, Maru, ByuL 2x, aLive, Solar, INnoVation (A very similar run to his GSL as far as victories, but he also lost to sOs, Solar, Dark, INnoVation).
On May 22 2017 06:21 DieuCure wrote: Ssl premier is harder than gsl because it's all about top players
GSL ro32 and ro16 = a lot of weak players
Ssl challenge is better than ro16 gsl
Yeah, the only argument I see for GSL being more prestigious than this SSL is in terms of prize money and legacy (could be a greater incentive to win). In terms of format and players though, I would consider this SSL one of the hardest tier 1 tournaments we've ever had and it will be even harder in successive seasons.
Even looking in hindsight premiere is still stacked. 7/10 of the players before the season were in or just outside of most people's top 10 power ranking and I'd imagine the result would be about the same now.
I mean look at Ryung. Back to back semis in GSL despite the gaping hole in his TvZ and mediocre TvP. Throw him in SSL premiere and I doubt he'd make it far. He's lucky Losira was the only Zerg in challenger as well.
On May 22 2017 04:20 mizenhauer wrote: Since everyone keeps talking about SSL, I urge everyone to please be reasonable and remember that this season's SSL is nowhere near the prestige of GSL. Winning it would be more analogous to winning a KeSPA Cup of MLG of 2012 era. I just can't see a case being made to classify it as anything other than a tier 2 event.
the mental gymnasistics have begun. sure the prize money isnt as high as in the previous seasons, but all the best players in the world played in it just like they did in GSL. winning an SSL is still on par with being as difficult as winning a GSL.
do you have any other reason to already degrade the prestige of winning SSL before its even finished, other than there being a player you dont like in the final right now?
One of the strenghts of the new SSL format is that players cannot avoid playing vs their weakest race/rival and ensure everybody has the same conteders during all the season, not lucky brackets or groups involved. The weakest thing in terms of prestige may be the playoff seeds as mentioned, but I love the SPL format.
GSL is basically 2 rounds of weeding out chokers and then hoping your bracket is easy. It might seem more prestige for the same reasons it's way more volatile than a RR format. Cases in point: INnoVation in SSL finals while in last GSL he was unfortunately matched against Stats in ro8 and eliminated; sOs' fluke run through GSL while in SSL he steadily maintained bottom 2 throughout the season.
Unfounded opinions are wonderful, but please supply actual information as to why SSL is harder like I did when comparing the routes stats would take to win both tournaments (I admitted that this is not the best means to do so, but something is better than nothing. A lot of people have a bad habit of spouting opinion as fact, like when I was told there were more openings used in LotV than HotS despite the fact that I had recorded the builds used in over 300 games while they were just basing their opinion of shoddy memory from watching games as fans). Going 5-4 when three of your matches are against sOs, Patience and Zest (which should be byes for anyone seriously considered to win the tournament) is not really impressive to me at all. After that the playoffs are just as difficult as GSL elimination rounds. SSL is the same players as GSL, but the first stage is much more forgiving, even when compared to the round of 16.
On May 22 2017 18:46 mizenhauer wrote: sOs, Patience and Zest (which should be byes for anyone seriously considered to win the tournament)
Well in that case we can just skip the playoffs and give the title straight to Solar since he's the only one in the top 4 who took all three byes.
I'd say Patience is the best example of the round robin not being as forgiving as you try to make it seem. After 6 weeks he was top 3 in Premier with wins over both ByuL and INnoVation. Those would have been enough to get him through a Ro16 group. After 9 weeks he finished in 8th. The round robin rewards consistency over anything else. Not to mention the GSL Ro16 has the whole group selection deal where the players all try to make the groups easy for themselves.
Some people think winning 5+ matches against 9 of the best players in the world over the course of 9 weeks is a bigger challenge (or at least equal challenge) than winning 2 matches in one day and being done with it. It's an understandable point of view.
On May 22 2017 18:46 mizenhauer wrote: Unfounded opinions are wonderful, but please supply actual information as to why SSL is harder like I did when comparing the routes stats would take to win both tournaments (I admitted that this is not the best means to do so, but something is better than nothing. A lot of people have a bad habit of spouting opinion as fact, like when I was told there were more openings used in LotV than HotS despite the fact that I had recorded the builds used in over 300 games while they were just basing their opinion of shoddy memory from watching games as fans). Going 5-4 when three of your matches are against sOs, Patience and Zest (which should be byes for anyone seriously considered to win the tournament) is not really impressive to me at all. After that the playoffs are just as difficult as GSL elimination rounds. SSL is the same players as GSL, but the first stage is much more forgiving, even when compared to the round of 16.
i never said its harder, i said its equally as hard. its literally the exact same player pool GSL has, but you're preparing specifically only for 1 opponent for every week. you might be able to drop more maps to win the whole thing, but it's a silly comparison. first of all it doesnt look like thats gonna happen in this season and secondly the best player will still come out on top.
again, a player you personally dislike is in the finals. and youre trying ro discredit the whole tournament because of it.
On May 22 2017 18:46 mizenhauer wrote: Unfounded opinions are wonderful, but please supply actual information as to why SSL is harder like I did when comparing the routes stats would take to win both tournaments (I admitted that this is not the best means to do so, but something is better than nothing. A lot of people have a bad habit of spouting opinion as fact, like when I was told there were more openings used in LotV than HotS despite the fact that I had recorded the builds used in over 300 games while they were just basing their opinion of shoddy memory from watching games as fans). Going 5-4 when three of your matches are against sOs, Patience and Zest (which should be byes for anyone seriously considered to win the tournament) is not really impressive to me at all. After that the playoffs are just as difficult as GSL elimination rounds. SSL is the same players as GSL, but the first stage is much more forgiving, even when compared to the round of 16.
i never said its harder, i said its equally as hard. its literally the exact same player pool GSL has, but you're preparing specifically only for 1 opponent for every week. you might be able to drop more maps to win the whole thing, but it's a silly comparison. first of all it doesnt look like thats gonna happen in this season and secondly the best player will still come out on top.
again, a player you personally dislike is in the finals. and youre trying ro discredit the whole tournament because of it.
Inno is far from my favorite player, but when did I say I dislike him? If he wins Premier then my position in this instance doesn't look defensible, but I don't want him to lose just because it makes me look more "correct". I still maintain that next season of SSL will be much harder than this season. If Stats wins my case looks stronger, but in my eyes this season of SSL just wasn't on the level of this season's GSL, just as this season's GSL isn't on the level of any of the 2015 SSL's. I get that you have a differing opinion and I think all of us will be delighted at the strength of SSL Premier next season, but coming up with this idea that I have a personal vendetta against Inno and therefore am determined to undermine the respectability of an entire tournament is a little flimsy.
On May 22 2017 18:46 mizenhauer wrote: Unfounded opinions are wonderful, but please supply actual information as to why SSL is harder like I did when comparing the routes stats would take to win both tournaments (I admitted that this is not the best means to do so, but something is better than nothing. A lot of people have a bad habit of spouting opinion as fact, like when I was told there were more openings used in LotV than HotS despite the fact that I had recorded the builds used in over 300 games while they were just basing their opinion of shoddy memory from watching games as fans). Going 5-4 when three of your matches are against sOs, Patience and Zest (which should be byes for anyone seriously considered to win the tournament) is not really impressive to me at all. After that the playoffs are just as difficult as GSL elimination rounds. SSL is the same players as GSL, but the first stage is much more forgiving, even when compared to the round of 16.
Statistics and facts are wonderful but sometimes Brain >>> Statistics. In SSL premiere you play only the best players every week. You play more matches than in the GSL against harder oponents. There is no point you could provide to make GSL look harder than current SSL, because its just not. Yes GSL has more prestige, money, fame, points etc., I even like it much more i just like the GSL atmosphere and format, but its definitely a much easier tournament
I don't get why you discredit SSL for having "weak" players in Zest, sOs and Patience (I don't even get why you name Patience, he beat the 2 top ranked players after all). In the last GSL the two finalists had to beat sOs and Ryung in the semifinals and had mostly weakish players in the ro32/ro16 (excluding soO's group of death). In terms of difficulty I'd certainly rate SSL over GSL because it isn't affected as much by bracket lacket or daily form of the players. Over 9 weeks straight you have to put up good performances against absolute top tier players and then get through the playoffs whereas in GSL you most of the time face only 3-4 top tier players on the road to the finals.
the only thing in favor of the GSL is the higher prestige/prize money.
Why can't we all just be happy that there are 2 korean tier 1 tournaments going on right now instead of trying to compare them (and putting 1 of them down in the proces) ?
These comments sometimes....
I for one am rooting for Inno to fulfill his potential and finally grab another starleague titel,be it GSL or SSL, preferably both
On May 23 2017 15:58 Cptn wet pants wrote: Why can't we all just be happy that there are 2 korean tier 1 tournaments going on right now instead of trying to compare them (and putting 1 of them down in the proces) ?
These comments sometimes....
I for one am rooting for Inno to fulfill his potential and finally grab another starleague titel,be it GSL or SSL, preferably both
If he manages to accomplish that, he will be the unquestioned GOAT.
EPT
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- hexhaven
