EPTCommunity Feedback Update - May 4 - Page 12
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18038 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
In sweden we have schools that is ran be companies and there the companies sees the students as costumers. Profit before education. To attract coustomers they know the parents look at the grades overall at that school so therefore the company raises the grades meanwhile the knowledge of the actual students get smaller. Its not entirely the companies faults either. They go by the system, the system encourage that sort of behavior. Will take atleast many years before it turns around overall. Perhaps if we are lucky we get some big companie that turns around and then makes a good rts. We "ordinary" people do have a say by the way. We can speak with our wallet. We can also get our voice out there. I will try to do it properly bit by bit. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On May 11 2017 06:18 Tyrhanius wrote: P and T shouldn't receive any buffs, particulary vs Z, and a fortiori they shouldn't get some lategame buff. Just take a look on the last tournaments, Zerg isn't competitive. P and T just repete their builds, and if they do it right, they end up being ahead, even if Zerg scout it, know it's coming, and have seen this buff 1000 times already, it keeps working. Protoss kit is the most insane thing vs Zerg. They now have an even economy than Zerg, and always more drone on early game. This is already insane. But Protoss has now uncounterable harass. With oracle, WP pickup, adept shade, Protoss is able to kill drones without any loss, while they have already more probe than the zerg... There is nothing zerg can do if the P is able to control his units right, he will fall behind in economy. After the Zerg need to make something, else the "macro game" is designed to make him lose, so he makes a random timing with some random composition, and pray. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. Zerg hasn't really played better when it works compared when he get crushed, it's just : Has the protoss player been surprised or not, transition too fast, or too slow, hasn't look when baneling runbies/baneling drops come. When it's ladder, or BO3, Zerg can take some games, but when it's BO5-BO7, Zerg hasn't won any premier tournaments for 8 months... I mean, the current meta is zerg has to macro up and defend up to 70~ drones while protoss of terran has to do some damage with their good harrass, or else the zerg gets ahead. and honestly it's the meta that blizzard has force with warp prism pickup range and medivac boost. Is it bad? not exactly. Blizzard reduced the requirement for overlord drop to compensate yet zergs complain they have no tools either. We can't pretend that zerg doesn't have timings like banes, ling drops, or ravagers... and honestly it's what kind of game do you want. and I don't get how you can say that the Protoss kit is the most insane thing vs zerg when zerg has many compositions it can go vs. the standard protoss builds. is the toss going zealot archon? do you want to go roach/hydra/infestor? how about ling/bane/hydra? maybe harrass with spire to keep the toss back and do damage then transition to brood lords? at least on ladder zerg has a lot of viable options. at top level it seems bane hydra is just the best, don't forget the small hydra health buff. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
1. Bug fixes. 2. BNet Servers for MP. 3. Fixes for blatantly obvious imbalances. And nothing else. I do not get to demand that all future SC2 related produce is mine for free. Now, I would not go so far as Jimmy and be happy to pay for everything, even higher resolutions, but I am happy to pay for enhancements to cosmetics, voice packs etc to make the game even more enjoyable. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
More on-topic...i think we should all start discussing the actual game again. I think there's a ton of things that are a problem with multi-player...that continue to be left un-addressed. A lot of the things i'm gonna list i hope people can discuss or agree are problems...because i've seen in a lot of places players have legitimately left/quit the game over the things i am going to list below. I won't offer my personal solutions because people will just flame me, but here are the things that are huge issues: -mass ravagers (too strong, free ability, no armored tag, too 'easy' to play) -mass adepts (same as above, too strong, free ability with mobility, worker killing machine) -mass ravens (infinite scaling into late game, can 'beat everything' when you reach it) -mass swarmhosts (makes mech completely un-viable that this unit exists in the game in it's current state) -invulnerable nydus worm (untargettable, you can see it and still die, makes all-ins stronger for the attacker...) -mass carriers (a unit that essentially is the same as the raven aka get enough and you basically win with storm/archon) -air strength in general across all 3 races is way stronger than ground anti-air -mech anti-air does not exist (there's no auto-attacking aa unit from the factory, and future thor change just reverted) -too many recent arbitrary zerg buffs (baneling buff, hydra buff, infestor buffs...bit over the top) -warp prism strength (5 range pick-up + 200 minerals threatening to bomb your base the moment you leave) -mass BCS (same as mass carrier, mass raven, same as any mass air really...too strong "when u get there") -parasitic bomb (a zero skill, low counter play ability that can instantly win the game) Those are just a list of many things across all 3 races that seem to be way over tuned whether in terms of balance or in terms of "these things are too easy to do compared to how hard they are to stop." Adepts, and ravagers in particular i think warrant a lot of discussion here, and i think swarmhost/mech viability have been discussed to death and we all hope blizzard will make some adjustments at this point. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Haters will hate, of course, but times are not bad at all. | ||
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
On May 12 2017 05:54 avilo wrote: Does anyone know if Blizzard is adding Warchests/loot chests ever or something like they did for Heroes? Just curious... More on-topic...i think we should all start discussing the actual game again. I think there's a ton of things that are a problem with multi-player...that continue to be left un-addressed. A lot of the things i'm gonna list i hope people can discuss or agree are problems...because i've seen in a lot of places players have legitimately left/quit the game over the things i am going to list below. I won't offer my personal solutions because people will just flame me, but here are the things that are huge issues: -mass ravagers (too strong, free ability, no armored tag, too 'easy' to play) -mass adepts (same as above, too strong, free ability with mobility, worker killing machine) -mass ravens (infinite scaling into late game, can 'beat everything' when you reach it) -mass swarmhosts (makes mech completely un-viable that this unit exists in the game in it's current state) -invulnerable nydus worm (untargettable, you can see it and still die, makes all-ins stronger for the attacker...) -mass carriers (a unit that essentially is the same as the raven aka get enough and you basically win with storm/archon) -air strength in general across all 3 races is way stronger than ground anti-air -mech anti-air does not exist (there's no auto-attacking aa unit from the factory, and future thor change just reverted) -too many recent arbitrary zerg buffs (baneling buff, hydra buff, infestor buffs...bit over the top) -warp prism strength (5 range pick-up + 200 minerals threatening to bomb your base the moment you leave) -mass BCS (same as mass carrier, mass raven, same as any mass air really...too strong "when u get there") -parasitic bomb (a zero skill, low counter play ability that can instantly win the game) Those are just a list of many things across all 3 races that seem to be way over tuned whether in terms of balance or in terms of "these things are too easy to do compared to how hard they are to stop." Adepts, and ravagers in particular i think warrant a lot of discussion here, and i think swarmhost/mech viability have been discussed to death and we all hope blizzard will make some adjustments at this point. Pretty sure we've discussed every thing of the above to death at this point. Though in this list you forget the ridiculousness that is the oracle and it's ability to reveal your army all day long if you keep it alive. You also forgot how stupid it is that pylon overcharge can be used offensively (aka not near a nexus). It should be simple as hell to kill the frustration people feel when having to deal with that shit. Nydus invincible is imo also stupid. Just buff the health of the nydus worm if you want to increase it's surviveability. General observations In LOTV all in's are stupidly hard to hold because of units like the adept and the ravager and because they are a lot harder to scout compared to the slower ramping all-ins like the 1/1/1. All-ins like these lead to not even feeling like you were the better player when you win, because you just had to deal with a build that you happened to counter. For example the invincible nydus kills you most of the time unless you surround it with buildings or have a tank in position. There is of course also a lot less of gradually getting ahead via skirmishes (For noobs). For noobs there's simply no point. If you lack multitasking (APM) there is really no incentive to try and APM your way to kill workers. Because in that time period you'll bank somewhere around 2500 minerals from your ridiculous economy. Your opponent has no real reason to care about losing some workers either since he has a comparable bank. If you were on less bases that story would be different. What i'm saying is that LOTV's design lends itself to players of higher levels of play because of it's design. A personal problem with multiplayer in my view is that 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 thanks to the overbloated economy of LOTV lost even more of their appeal as gamemodes. The game balance team has never really put their all in these modes. And of course they killed FFA as a gamemode too. Also I'd like to point out the importance of the played ratio of races. Regardless of the races ''real strength'', ladder's population is quite skewed by zergs. This would either mean that zerg is fun, easy to play, and very strong. Or.. that the other races atleast to most people feel very weak and or are boring to play. Let me remind you by the way that zerg has to play against zergs. It takes one 1 minute of watching twitch chat to see how people feel about ZvZ. (They feel the same about PvP thanks to the disruptor and carrier now though so, there's that. I always end up at the same conclusion anyway. Blizzard should just balance per matchup to make all matchups fun and yet balanced to play. It's far too hard to keep the game fun whilst also balanced if they want to keep the same stats on all units, in all matchups, and for all game modes. SC2 as it stands is balanced at the highest lvl of play in 1v1. (And I hope fun for those people) That's all it has really achieved. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On May 12 2017 03:24 youngjiddle wrote: I mean, the current meta is zerg has to macro up and defend up to 70~ drones while protoss of terran has to do some damage with their good harrass, or else the zerg gets ahead. and honestly it's the meta that blizzard has force with warp prism pickup range and medivac boost. Is it bad? not exactly. Blizzard reduced the requirement for overlord drop to compensate yet zergs complain they have no tools either. We can't pretend that zerg doesn't have timings like banes, ling drops, or ravagers... and honestly it's what kind of game do you want. and I don't get how you can say that the Protoss kit is the most insane thing vs zerg when zerg has many compositions it can go vs. the standard protoss builds. is the toss going zealot archon? do you want to go roach/hydra/infestor? how about ling/bane/hydra? maybe harrass with spire to keep the toss back and do damage then transition to brood lords? at least on ladder zerg has a lot of viable options. at top level it seems bane hydra is just the best, don't forget the small hydra health buff. All things u wrote would be cool if not macro nerf that Zerg received in LOTV. The biggest nerf compared to other races. And how u can even compare overlord drops to harras options aviable for T or P? Its not even fair. The problem is that even if Zerg is droning like crazy he will be even in income with protoss and Terran (mules) and by droning he lacks of real army. In the same time LOTV harras has been buffed so much for Terran and Protoss that boosted medivacks are the least of the problem. Revert larva nerf back to 4 and it will be fine. Zerg would have more chances to get lil bit ahead with eco into midgame. P.S. Avilo...Ravagers feel strong versus Your Style of massing ststic defence or immobile defences like tanks. In other situation Corrosive Bile is not as easy to hit as you think. Much harder than shift+queue medivack drops or setting mass liberation zones. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10893 Posts
On May 05 2017 05:44 avilo wrote: "he's going mech - i'll make 20 swarmhost and auto-win." Post replay where Zerg makes 20 swarmhosts and wins due to mech player please. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On May 12 2017 03:24 youngjiddle wrote: I mean, the current meta is zerg has to macro up and defend up to 70~ drones while protoss of terran has to do some damage with their good harrass, or else the zerg gets ahead. and honestly it's the meta that blizzard has force with warp prism pickup range and medivac boost. Is it bad? not exactly. Blizzard reduced the requirement for overlord drop to compensate yet zergs complain they have no tools either. We can't pretend that zerg doesn't have timings like banes, ling drops, or ravagers... and honestly it's what kind of game do you want. and I don't get how you can say that the Protoss kit is the most insane thing vs zerg when zerg has many compositions it can go vs. the standard protoss builds. is the toss going zealot archon? do you want to go roach/hydra/infestor? how about ling/bane/hydra? maybe harrass with spire to keep the toss back and do damage then transition to brood lords? at least on ladder zerg has a lot of viable options. at top level it seems bane hydra is just the best, don't forget the small hydra health buff. The problem is if you make a timing like you say, you cut drone. If you make only drones, you still have less drone than P until 5:30, so if you cut drone, you fall so behind, and your timing must do dommage or you lose the game. So it's rather an all-in. On the other side, P can harass with a few units and don't need to cut his probes : a warp, 2 oracles will kill drones, it's very unlikely for a good toss to lose them, and they have so much utility even if they don't do dommage. So P can harass without being forced to put himself behind, and they have a better eco. There is no real trick for Z do counter the P harass, they have no way not to lose worker. On the other side, a zerg drop is slower than probes, and if P pull probe + photon overcharge, the drop will do no dmg and Zerg will lose more. So else Z doesn't commit a lot, the harass is very unlikely to do dmg, or he commits a lot, he has more potential, but he is totally all-in. In the two case, he has to pray the Protoss will be surprised or don't deal with his attack very well, it's more a bet or a all-in, and can't be compared with Protoss who can harass while he takes no risk if he control his units well. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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Ransomstarcraft
75 Posts
On May 12 2017 13:51 hiroshOne wrote: All things u wrote would be cool if not macro nerf that Zerg received in LOTV. The biggest nerf compared to other races. And how u can even compare overlord drops to harras options aviable for T or P? Its not even fair. The problem is that even if Zerg is droning like crazy he will be even in income with protoss and Terran (mules) and by droning he lacks of real army. In the same time LOTV harras has been buffed so much for Terran and Protoss that boosted medivacks are the least of the problem. Revert larva nerf back to 4 and it will be fine. Zerg would have more chances to get lil bit ahead with eco into midgame. P.S. Avilo...Ravagers feel strong versus Your Style of massing ststic defence or immobile defences like tanks. In other situation Corrosive Bile is not as easy to hit as you think. Much harder than shift+queue medivack drops or setting mass liberation zones. Watch Innovation vs. Soo from Basetrade yesterday (Thursday, May 11). Spoilers ahead, here's how the series goes. In the first game, Innovation loses for 2 reasons. First, he doesn't know exactly what Soo plans to do with his army. His focus on attacking units only leaves him open to the harass. Second, Soo has a better economy the entire mid and late game. When the game ends, the resources lost is 4000 more for Soo. Imagine what this game would have looked like if Soo was making an extra drone or army unit every cycle. In the second game, Innovation wins because Soo takes a bad engagement off creep and then some bad baneling hits. In the third game, Innovation loses because of exactly the issues we've been talking about here. He tries to open with a harass build, Soo builds Roach/Ravager and walks right over him. Zerg has options. Soo beat Innovation with Muta/Ling/Bane and also with Roach Ravager. He beat him with harass and with brute force. Here we have 2 players who are pretty evenly matched, and it seems outside the realm of any sort of balance to imagine Soo with an extra worker or army unit every cycle. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1972 Posts
On May 12 2017 21:47 Ransomstarcraft wrote: Watch Innovation vs. Soo from Basetrade yesterday (Thursday, May 11). Spoilers ahead, here's how the series goes. In the first game, Innovation loses for 2 reasons. First, he doesn't know exactly what Soo plans to do with his army. His focus on attacking units only leaves him open to the harass. Second, Soo has a better economy the entire mid and late game. When the game ends, the resources lost is 4000 more for Soo. Imagine what this game would have looked like if Soo was making an extra drone or army unit every cycle. In the second game, Innovation wins because Soo takes a bad engagement off creep and then some bad baneling hits. In the third game, Innovation loses because of exactly the issues we've been talking about here. He tries to open with a harass build, Soo builds Roach/Ravager and walks right over him. Zerg has options. Soo beat Innovation with Muta/Ling/Bane and also with Roach Ravager. He beat him with harass and with brute force. Here we have 2 players who are pretty evenly matched, and it seems outside the realm of any sort of balance to imagine Soo with an extra worker or army unit every cycle. That's a rather small sample size you're working with. Review hundreds of games and maybe you'd have a case. Anything can happen over the course of three games. That doesn't make those events a trend or a dynamic in how a matchup is played. To address these two players specifically, Inno has an overwhelming win rate against soO on ladder. If anything these three games were an aberration rather than a illustration of how ZvT is played. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On May 12 2017 22:31 mizenhauer wrote: That's a rather small sample size you're working with. Review hundreds of games and maybe you'd have a case. Anything can happen over the course of three games. That doesn't make those events a trend or a dynamic in how a matchup is played. To address these two players specifically, Inno has an overwhelming win rate against soO on ladder. If anything these three games were an aberration rather than a illustration of how ZvT is played. How do you know his winrate vs him on ladder? Just curious. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1972 Posts
On May 12 2017 22:54 Karpfen wrote: How do you know his winrate vs him on ladder? Just curious. I mod for soO. I've watched almost every streamed game soO has played since November. Of course I haven't seen the ones off stream, but it would be unreasonable to anticipate the result changes dramatically in those circumstances. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On May 12 2017 23:12 mizenhauer wrote: I mod for soO. I've watched almost every streamed game soO has played since November. Of course I haven't seen the ones off stream, but it would be unreasonable to anticipate the result changes dramatically in those circumstances. Ladder games aside, INnoVation also has overwhelming record vs soO in tournament games. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18038 Posts
On May 12 2017 07:29 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote: Also I'd like to point out the importance of the played ratio of races. Regardless of the races ''real strength'', ladder's population is quite skewed by zergs. This would either mean that zerg is fun, easy to play, and very strong. Or.. that the other races atleast to most people feel very weak and or are boring to play. Let me remind you by the way that zerg has to play against zergs. It takes one 1 minute of watching twitch chat to see how people feel about ZvZ. (They feel the same about PvP thanks to the disruptor and carrier now though so, there's that. I always end up at the same conclusion anyway. Blizzard should just balance per matchup to make all matchups fun and yet balanced to play. It's far too hard to keep the game fun whilst also balanced if they want to keep the same stats on all units, in all matchups, and for all game modes. SC2 as it stands is balanced at the highest lvl of play in 1v1. (And I hope fun for those people) That's all it has really achieved. A diverse 3-race RTS can only be balanced at 1 level. People below that level have to accept that fact. my best race is zerg but i play terran mainly. i don't worry about the fact that i could've beaten a player with my Zerg game. i just consider playing Terran part of the challenge. i can understand why a player who lives off of event prize money can be upset about imbalance. how many people in this thread live off of prize money? its funny watching guys like SjoW and Avilo attempt other races thinking they'll easily steamroll their opponents only to discover its not that easy. | ||
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