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On April 10 2017 16:15 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 12:06 htx.RuNe wrote:
The big question here is, who is replacing him? Because if he leaves and such an important position isn't immediately filled by a replacement, that basically confirms SC2 is in maintenance mode now - whatever headless remnant of the design team is still around won't have either the ability or authority to change the game, nevermind revive it from its slump. Truth is, the design decisions are not his own, it is a team effort, he is just the one that takes the blame. Same for Ghostcrawler and his WoW days.
While that may be true, if you're the lead balance designer and there's a ton of issues that are really obvious with the game, the responsibility falls a lot on your shoulders. I don't know why people here and on reddit keep trying to pretend the patches we were getting were good at all - they weren't.
I think people can respect all the time the guy put in, but i honestly do not think he did a good job. That is self-evident from the state of the game.
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I agree there avilo but the question still remains how much freedom he had with his decisions, how much he implemented his own ideas or did he just do what was asked for?
In any way DK is/was part of the problem. From how I imagine - derived from his personalitly and korean behaviour in general - he wasn't making enough impact himself and wasn't leading enough but tried to fulfill too many wishes and requirements of different purpose. SC2 needed someone more narcissistic and selfish in this position, at least I believe it could have created better results but as well higher risk of failure. Sometimes the middleground is the safest solution which as well denies comlete failure but brilliance as well. But we don't know how much this is possible in blizzard's internal structures. Of course they were going for brilliance but probably with the wrong approach of enforcing success and esports instead of letting it grow and develop naturally as someone mentioned earlier.
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Introducing Warcraft 4!
New Units:
-Raider Chieftain(aoe roar to buff friendly damage by 40%)
-Holy Footman(Can use invulnerability for 10 seconds on 30 second cooldown)
-Wood Elves(automatically gathers 100 wood every 2 seconds when close to trees)
-Crazed Ghouls(gains 50% attack speed and damage when fighting on blight)
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On April 11 2017 12:00 xtorn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 16:15 digmouse wrote:On April 10 2017 12:06 htx.RuNe wrote:
The big question here is, who is replacing him? Because if he leaves and such an important position isn't immediately filled by a replacement, that basically confirms SC2 is in maintenance mode now - whatever headless remnant of the design team is still around won't have either the ability or authority to change the game, nevermind revive it from its slump. Truth is, the design decisions are not his own, it is a team effort, he is just the one that takes the blame. Same for Ghostcrawler and his WoW days. Hmm, compared to David Kim, Ghostcrawler Street had a much harsher time with the community. I think Ghostcrawler took maybe thrice the hate that DK experienced. And now that he is lead designer at Riot, he received death threats too http://www.12up.com/posts/4376634-design-director-for-lol-receives-death-threatsShow nested quote +
"I’ve had weird phone calls in the middle of the night. I’ve had death threats. I’ve had Blizzard security offer to monitor my house. I’ve had designers who had to work with the FBI on threats. I’m also an upper class, straight, white dude, and I know developers who aren’t who have gotten much, much worse from players
https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/ghostcrawler-community-death-threats-fbi?amp--- Maybe it is a job description thing for Lead Game Designers in general, to be viciously hated?! As in, "please be aware that once you begin work, you are highly recommended that you also take our subsidized self defense classes or consider our bodyguard offer."
It's sad how immature most gaming communities are..
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I was initially hype to read the headline, but it'll really come down to who ends up replacing Mr. Kim. If they take the same trajectory then this is a non-story, but if they decide to right the ship it could be a game-changer. The other thing is whether the lost player base (including me) would even come back to the game if it was course-corrected.
We are, after all, talking about a game that's now nearly 7 years old (still crazy for me to think about, feels like it came out 2-3 years ago). I'd personally give it a shot if it looked like it was on the right track, but there are lots of people out there that don't give second chances.
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I wish they did a reset on SC2 and balanced from scratch
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Overall David Kim did an amazing job 'balancing' the races - but the three BIG blunders (broodlord winfestor era, swarmhost turtle period and Hellbat age) were somewhat unforgivable.
HOWEVER: when we look at the GSL Round of 8s for the past 5 years though, the racial balance is beautiful. I for one believe this is the best indicator we have on how DK did his job, he FARKN excelled at it.
I want to take this time to thank him for his efforts and to wish him the best at what he is moving onto.
And to all you sour-puss cry-babies out there bitching about your ass-hurt butt-sadness - GROW the fuck up. Anybody with any REAL knowledge of SC2 knows DK did an amazing job.
Listen to Incontrol, Artosis, Tastosis, Mr Chae, herO, Bomber, Soulkey, Life, Innovation and even MVP talk about DK - they all respected and appreciated the effort and outcome of his work. Just saying...
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On April 10 2017 19:11 Eridanus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 16:59 StormsInJuly wrote:On April 09 2017 21:46 Eridanus wrote:
You should never feel sorry for a person that choose to be in a position of power and great financial award for being criticized on how they do their job. He didn't have to take that position.
You will actually feel that people in those kinds of positions have an unusual ability to not be bothered by it. Either out of narcissism or insensitivity. And we 'normal' people feel that so many people having opinions on you would be stressful at best, hurtful at worst. Until it doesn't become tasteless, personal, threads of violence, I wouldn't feel sorry for people in prominent positions.
Please don't rationalize the awful behavior of this community by claiming that dkim doesn't have feelings like a 'normal' person. A lot of the hate directed toward him was exactly that (tasteless, personal, threats of violence) How is it a rationalization? I already know many of Blizzard's customers are complete trash, illogical, and immature people. Never mind the immoral behavior they display online because they think it doesn't matter what you say as long as you think you are anonymous. I am talking about how sorry we should feel for David Kim. Or Lloyd Blankfein. Or some Kardasian. Or Donald Trump. Or anyone who decides they really want the spotlight. These people get exactly what they want. We shouldn't feel sorry for people getting exactly what they want. If they wanted something else, they can just quit.
David Kim left the SC2 team though, and so it seems pretty reasonable to expect civility and respect in this thread because it is mostly about well wishes and thanking him for his efforts.
But in general I agree, expecting civility towards people in positions of authority is only one step away from demanding deference. For what it's worth, Blizzard is more likely to respond to community anger than they are to intelligent forum arguments. I can think of a handful of semi-recent cases where Blizzard did implement (minor) community suggestions, but overall they are incredibly insular and will easily wave away even the most reasonable of requests with vague references to internal Blizzard directives. It's only when people spam reddit with "CHAT ROOMS" that they will magically appear in the next patch.
Or think of US politics where it's been proven that 80% of the population has almost zero influence on policy outcomes and a handful of insiders have an extremely disproportionate effect. You can mail a suggestion to your local representative for a better health care program, but what's the point?
I don't know if slavishly following up on community demands necessarily makes for better game design, and of course much of the community feedback towards Blizzard starts from the premise of "making the game good in the way that BW was good", but it's food for thought. It's Blizzard's game, anyhow, as much as people like to think they have a right to be heard.
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Didn't check this thread for a couple days...
be civil.
How fucking sad is it that this has to be stickied to the top of the thread. Disgusting. Shameful. Pathetic.
Fuck off to Reddit if you're here to insult a person who put their heart and soul into this game we all enjoy and love. Yes, he made some mistake, no, he's not perfect. He's a human being. Don't think for a single second he made any of those mistakes on purpose.
Jesus. It's fucking sickening.
Where's the TL of old, where respectful, mature people came to discuss the game.
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On April 12 2017 18:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Didn't check this thread for a couple days... How fucking sad is it that this has to be stickied to the top of the thread. Disgusting. Shameful. Pathetic. Fuck off to Reddit if you're here to insult a person who put their heart and soul into this game we all enjoy and love. Yes, he made some mistake, no, he's not perfect. He's a human being. Don't think for a single second he made any of those mistakes on purpose. Jesus. It's fucking sickening. Where's the TL of old, where respectful, mature people came to discuss the game.
Real respectful mature signature you've got there
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Lol that's been there for 2 years. Still agree with it though, but it's never gonna change...
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On April 12 2017 18:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Didn't check this thread for a couple days... How fucking sad is it that this has to be stickied to the top of the thread. Disgusting. Shameful. Pathetic. Fuck off to Reddit if you're here to insult a person who put their heart and soul into this game we all enjoy and love. Yes, he made some mistake, no, he's not perfect. He's a human being. Don't think for a single second he made any of those mistakes on purpose. Jesus. It's fucking sickening. Where's the TL of old, where respectful, mature people came to discuss the game.
The sticky was there almost from the start. And I counted and there are about 4 really mean posts and another few posts that maybe nearly cross the line. I don't think that's so bad, given the other 200+ friendly posts. Frankly, this grand melodramatic statement about how TL is ruined and is "fucking sickening" seems a bit silly in light of these facts. It's an internet forum and David Kim is a divisive figure, how can you possibly demand that literally no one on TL will be rude toward DK? On the balance people were very nice. It's like the Seinfeld episode where the sweater is ruined because it has an invisible red dot. (or some idiom like pearl clutching is appropriate here)
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On April 12 2017 15:13 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Overall David Kim did an amazing job 'balancing' the races - but the three BIG blunders (broodlord winfestor era, swarmhost turtle period and Hellbat age) were somewhat unforgivable.
HOWEVER: when we look at the GSL Round of 8s for the past 5 years though, the racial balance is beautiful. I for one believe this is the best indicator we have on how DK did his job, he FARKN excelled at it.
I want to take this time to thank him for his efforts and to wish him the best at what he is moving onto.
And to all you sour-puss cry-babies out there bitching about your ass-hurt butt-sadness - GROW the fuck up. Anybody with any REAL knowledge of SC2 knows DK did an amazing job.
Listen to Incontrol, Artosis, Tastosis, Mr Chae, herO, Bomber, Soulkey, Life, Innovation and even MVP talk about DK - they all respected and appreciated the effort and outcome of his work. Just saying...
I know this is controversial, but achieving parity for pro-level win rates for a game with only three races is a very low standard to clear (and frankly I don't think it's that difficult). Balance should not be this entirely reductive concept which only applies to maybe fifty players in the world. DK should care about the interests of all players, unit diversity, strategic diversity etc.
It is precisely this attitude which has hurt the game so much: as long as the game is fun to watch at the pro level it's a success, and we shouldn't care whether it is fun to play.
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On April 12 2017 19:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 15:13 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Overall David Kim did an amazing job 'balancing' the races - but the three BIG blunders (broodlord winfestor era, swarmhost turtle period and Hellbat age) were somewhat unforgivable.
HOWEVER: when we look at the GSL Round of 8s for the past 5 years though, the racial balance is beautiful. I for one believe this is the best indicator we have on how DK did his job, he FARKN excelled at it.
I want to take this time to thank him for his efforts and to wish him the best at what he is moving onto.
And to all you sour-puss cry-babies out there bitching about your ass-hurt butt-sadness - GROW the fuck up. Anybody with any REAL knowledge of SC2 knows DK did an amazing job.
Listen to Incontrol, Artosis, Tastosis, Mr Chae, herO, Bomber, Soulkey, Life, Innovation and even MVP talk about DK - they all respected and appreciated the effort and outcome of his work. Just saying...
I know this is controversial, but achieving parity for pro-level win rates for a game with only three races is a very low standard to clear (and frankly I don't think it's that difficult). Balance should not be this entirely reductive concept which only applies to maybe fifty players in the world. DK should care about the interests of all players, unit diversity, strategic diversity etc. It is precisely this attitude which has hurt the game so much: as long as the game is fun to watch at the pro level it's a success, and we shouldn't care whether it is fun to play.
You say it like some abstract "three races" that are the only factor influencing game balance. Each of the races has a number of units, and each of the units has a number of stats and skills. Add to it the economy system for each race, buildings, and maps, and suddenly the number of things to take into account becomes staggering. Sometimes a small change can have big influence on balance and metagame. And sometimes players figure out a new OP strategy or a way to use a unit and suddenly you have to think about how to control it balance-wise without skewing some other aspect of the game. In such a system of connected factors it's very difficult to find the perfect balance for both pros and casuals, and Blizzard has always been very much focused on the Esport factor - hence they focused the balance on pro games (whether this was the correct decision is another matter whatsoever). Also RTS games have had a rough time in general in the last few years (with the advent of mobas and whatnot), so the decline in viewership and player numbers might not be solely on the game itself, but could also have been influenced by the change of gaming climate, so to speak.
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I did not agree with most of his decisions, but Lotv is sometimes, kinda fun. I at least understood why he decided wrong in most situations, this goldie from the LotvBeta still is where he almost got it. He just didn't understand the meaning of the word "want". Because that he can still play the game the way he wanted to, was the whole point of the discussion. But it would have meant that other people could have played the game the way they wanted to aswell.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/18705072378?page=1
Further Learnings From Internal Testing
Finally, we’d like to talk about a couple major changes suggested by our community that didn’t quite turn out to have as positive of an effect as we had hoped. We’ve been discussing and playtesting the following two areas internally, and have decided that both are not fit for beta testing.
--->didn't even let us test, DURING BETA
And what I sadly will always remember him for:
Reducing the number of workers per base so that army sizes become bigger
When trying out this change, we determined that reducing the workers needed per base isn’t good for the game because many of the coolest moments in StarCraft II come from worker harassment. With fewer workers, it was just too easy to rebuild after taking economic damage, making these moments less meaningful.
We also looked into feedback suggesting we reduce the efficiency of workers when more than 1 is mining at a single mineral patch. This was aimed at making expanding result in a higher income more often than not, even when on an equal worker count. What we found is that expanding quickly and often already feels like a big advantage in Void, so this change does not feel all that different in terms of when you want to expand. Also, when you do expand faster and have your workers more spread out, it’s easier to replenish workers that you’ve lost to harassment. As we stated above, this is the opposite of what we’re looking to accomplish with the economy changes.
WHEN YOU WANT TO EXPAND. YOU. WANT. Such a frustrating person to scream at.
Godspeed Mr.Kim.
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On April 11 2017 21:52 LSN wrote:
I agree there avilo but the question still remains how much freedom he had with his decisions, how much he implemented his own ideas or did he just do what was asked for?
In any way DK is/was part of the problem. From how I imagine - derived from his personalitly and korean behaviour in general - he wasn't making enough impact himself and wasn't leading enough but tried to fulfill too many wishes and requirements of different purpose. SC2 needed someone more narcissistic and selfish in this position, at least I believe it could have created better results but as well higher risk of failure. Sometimes the middleground is the safest solution which as well denies comlete failure but brilliance as well. But we don't know how much this is possible in blizzard's internal structures. Of course they were going for brilliance but probably with the wrong approach of enforcing success and esports instead of letting it grow and develop naturally as someone mentioned earlier.
Bingo, this touches some things that the community usually doesn't give the tiniest shit about, but they are critical decisional factors.
It's easy to say "David Kim was too lazy / too scared / reluctant to do major changes / his changes were too lukewarm / etc etc" - but so few people understand that most times you simply are not allowed to take such risky decisions, in such huge companies like Blizzard, because high risk decisions can cost the company tremendously, plus you always must follow what your bosses / investors demand, and if they say "whatever you do, you will play it safe", then you play it safe, regardless of how enraged the community is.
I think the mistake that the community does/always did, is to think David Kim had 100% freedom to do major, radical changes at any time, and twist the game as he pleased. I think this is simply not how things work at Blizzard. Anyone instead of DK would have played it safe. He might not have been allowed to take such risks. Especially with a highly competitional game like Starcraft, where you must be extremely careful to not ruin the competition overnight.
You can only judge (fairly) when you know all sides of a story, and about DK nothing was made public about corporate internals and what he was told to do and in what manner. Only THEN you could say "yea, he had the freedom to do this and that, and he did not use it to its fullest advantage / lacked vision / etc etc"
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On April 12 2017 19:36 Grumbels wrote:
I know this is controversial, but achieving parity for pro-level win rates for a game with only three races is a very low standard to clear (and frankly I don't think it's that difficult).
yep, its easy.
that is why there are plenty of well-balanced , diverse-race RTS games out there... because its easy to balance diverse race games. So now you can just quit SC2 and move on to CoH1, RA3, AoE2, CoH2, RA2, C&C3 or Halo Wars .. or any one of a dozen other RTS games.
Unfortunately, its not easy... and the state of the RTS genre reflects that fact.
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On April 12 2017 19:36 Grumbels wrote:
I know this is controversial, but achieving parity for pro-level win rates for a game with only three races is a very low standard to clear (and frankly I don't think it's that difficult).
Thank you so much. Everyone pretends that creating and balancing a RTS game is like rocket science that only a few privileged people can understand, and thank God that Blizzard employs all of them.
Thankfully, this is easy stuff.
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On April 18 2017 04:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 19:36 Grumbels wrote:
I know this is controversial, but achieving parity for pro-level win rates for a game with only three races is a very low standard to clear (and frankly I don't think it's that difficult). yep, its easy. that is why there are plenty of well-balanced , diverse-race RTS games out there... because its easy to balance diverse race games. So now you can just quit SC2 and move on to CoH1, RA3, AoE2, CoH2, RA2, C&C3 or Halo Wars .. or any one of a dozen other RTS games. Unfortunately, its not easy... and the state of the RTS genre reflects that fact.
Balancing is just a trick, if you have seen it once you can do it over and over again. By now the pitfalls are all very well known, and David Kim didn't have to invent the wheel. Even so, he made plenty of mistakes over the years.
You mentioned those other games, but the comparison is pretty ludicrous, because Blizzard has something none of those other developers had: a conception of a game played professionally and balanced for a professional level. This model was, for RTS games, invented by Starcraft and Warcraft and the SC2 team inherited this legacy. Of course it is very difficult to balance a game if you are out in the dark and you don't know what you are trying to achieve outside of a vague concept of "balance", but Blizzard does not live in that world.
Blizzard has access to win rates, GSL games and pro-gamer feedback. Furthermore, they have a vocal community which conveniently diagnoses concrete problems for Blizzard to solve. There are also some aspects inherent to the design / environment which promote parity, such as random distribution of talented players, high skill cap, a constantly evolving competitive community, the ability for tournaments to pick maps and so on.
If you have this entire structure and you insert David Kim, I think it is pretty foolish to witness his success and then to claim: "oh, he is clearly uniquely gifted and brilliant", especially given that SC2 has hardly been an unequivocal success across the board (in terms of community reception, popularity etc.) and has always been plagued by balance issues that fly below the radar of the community's obsession with parity of pro-level winrates.
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EPT
