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On March 30 2017 09:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Beating Zest in TvP isn't an amzing thing right now. The matchup becomes progressively easier when the protoss never transitions.
Maru's TvT is weak? really? since the major patch he's currently:
9-6 against TY
5-0 against gumiho
5-4 against Byun
2-3 against aLive
1-3 against Ryung
thats pretty damn solid.
Maru hasn't been playing in much at all lately, because of Jin Air still being a team. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that he hasn't show enough top-level gameplay to justify being placed up with TY and Inno. Also Stats did roflstomp him in SSL, something which never happened to Inno or TY. It was embarrassing to watch, how he played right into Stats's hands both games. Both Inno and TY have done far better against Stats. He also lost to Dark in Super qualifiers yesterday, and basically just doesn't have a good record against top-tier opponents, just like ByuN and unlike both TY and Inno. Without consistently excellent results against the best players, it's hard to justify placing him at the very top.
Huh? You said that Maru's isn't as good at TvT compared to TY, Inno, Gumiho etc. I'd say being 9-6 against TY and 5-0 against gumiho is a good indicator that that isn't true.
The only basis for saying Maru's weak are his games vs Ryung in GSL where he 100% fucked up (he really should have won that). And his games vs Stats in SSL, were Stats completely outsmarted him in g1 and got lucky as hell in g2, not saying it was all luck, stats did play better but he couldn't have lost that game if he tried (scouting proxy starport that was 3 sec of finishing, oracle getting game changing dmg, stasis ward on cyclones etc)
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Huh? You said that Maru's isn't as good at TvT compared to TY, Inno, Gumiho etc. I'd say being 9-6 against TY and 5-0 against gumiho is a good indicator that that isn't true.
The only basis for saying Maru's weak are his games vs Ryung in GSL where he 100% fucked up (he really should have won that). And his games vs Stats in SSL, were Stats completely outsmarted him in g1 and got lucky as hell in g2, not saying it was all luck, stats did play better but he couldn't have lost that game if he tried (scouting proxy starport that was 3 sec of finishing, oracle getting game changing dmg, stasis ward on cyclones etc)
Maru in recent offline TvT has defeated ByuN at Gyeonggi and Gumiho in Code S. He's lost to TY at WESG and Ryung in Code S. In SSL qualifiers he beat TY but lost to ByuN. Those are not the results of a top TvT player, though they are not terrible either. I suppose an argument could be made that he is on par with the other top Terrans; I conflated ByuN and Maru somewhat in my previous post.
That said, I will still argue that Maru has not shown the superb TvP or TvZ necessary to place him alongside INnoVation or TY. He has played fewer matches than both of them and gotten worse results against top Protoss/Zerg players like Dark or Stats. He has won no tournaments nor have his most recent matches displayed any astonishing return to form.
Basically I'm saying there isn't enough evidence across all matchups to say Maru is as good as TY/Inno right now.
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On March 30 2017 19:50 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Serious question. What's so super about this tournament?
It's totally super that we're even getting another Korean tournament :p
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The wiki article shows a Bo5 Ro16. There's no group stage?
Also a random thought just occured to me. Only the top 4 players from GSL Season 1 were seeded into GSL Season 2, unlike the top 8 last year. Could it be possible that the top 4 of this Super Tournament will be seeded into Season 2?
Or did Afreeca just decide that 4 is just a much better number than 8?
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On March 30 2017 11:02 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Good, GomTvT was the best. eliminate the dirty protoss, especially stats. hopefully soo can extract his revenge and stomp him. would be ok with sos winning tho
.....Terran usually produces the best matchups (TvZ by far most entertaining matchup), but TvT is awful to watch. Just poking and prodding until bam-doomdrop-gg. It's so luck-dependent, so scouting-dependent, that it's basically down to whomever makes the first mistake loses. Even guys like TY or INnoVation can't manage much better than that. Also, there's the loathsome aspect where lesser Terrans defeat superior Terrans and then get stomped by the top Protoss/Zerg players that otherwise would have produced great matches against the top Terrans but alas they got sniped. I hate it so much when that happens.
Disagree, TvT is like an exciting chess match. Love the positioning and controlling space with siege tanks. Love the poking and prodding. Had exciting matches such as Inno vs Taeja where inno went mech and taeja went bio. Whereas ZvZ and PvP are mostly boring to watch (exception being SoS stomping hero at IEM for 100k). ZvZ was especially bad back in the day, that one GSL finals with Roro vs Symbol and it was broodlings fighting each other ... whereas Gom tvt was always exciting to me shrug
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 01 2017 03:26 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 11:02 pvsnp wrote:Good, GomTvT was the best. eliminate the dirty protoss, especially stats. hopefully soo can extract his revenge and stomp him. would be ok with sos winning tho
.....Terran usually produces the best matchups (TvZ by far most entertaining matchup), but TvT is awful to watch. Just poking and prodding until bam-doomdrop-gg. It's so luck-dependent, so scouting-dependent, that it's basically down to whomever makes the first mistake loses. Even guys like TY or INnoVation can't manage much better than that. Also, there's the loathsome aspect where lesser Terrans defeat superior Terrans and then get stomped by the top Protoss/Zerg players that otherwise would have produced great matches against the top Terrans but alas they got sniped. I hate it so much when that happens. Disagree, TvT is like an exciting chess match. Love the positioning and controlling space with siege tanks. Love the poking and prodding. Had exciting matches such as Inno vs Taeja where inno went mech and taeja went bio. Whereas ZvZ and PvP are mostly boring to watch (exception being SoS stomping hero at IEM for 100k). ZvZ was especially bad back in the day, that one GSL finals with Roro vs Symbol and it was broodlings fighting each other ... whereas Gom tvt was always exciting to me shrug
If every piece on the chess board except for the king was a queen, then maybe the current iteration of TvT would perhaps have something in common with chess.
On March 31 2017 13:13 pvsnp wrote:
The wiki article shows a Bo5 Ro16. There's no group stage?
Also a random thought just occured to me. Only the top 4 players from GSL Season 1 were seeded into GSL Season 2, unlike the top 8 last year. Could it be possible that the top 4 of this Super Tournament will be seeded into Season 2?
Or did Afreeca just decide that 4 is just a much better number than 8?
I assume they went from 8 to 4 because they removed Code A, 4 extra spots up for contention in the qualifiers could help ensure Code S doesn't stagnate too much.
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Disagree, TvT is like an exciting chess match. Love the positioning and controlling space with siege tanks. Love the poking and prodding. Had exciting matches such as Inno vs Taeja where inno went mech and taeja went bio. Whereas ZvZ and PvP are mostly boring to watch (exception being SoS stomping hero at IEM for 100k). ZvZ was especially bad back in the day, that one GSL finals with Roro vs Symbol and it was broodlings fighting each other ... whereas Gom tvt was always exciting to me shrug
TaeJa vs INnoVation on Newkirk is still the single greatest game of Starcraft II ever played. No doubt about that.
But 2017 TvT is not 2013 TvT. Mech is nonexistent, everyone always goes marine-tank, and whomever lands a doomdrop first wins.
Mech vs mech with seeker missiles could be called a chess match. These days TvT is more like Russian Roulette.
I assume they went from 8 to 4 because they removed Code A, 4 extra spots up for contention in the qualifiers could help ensure Code S doesn't stagnate too much.
That makes sense, I guess. Though players #5 to #8 were TY, herO, INnoVation, and Maru. I don't think anyone expects any of those four to fall in qualifiers.
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Innovation looks fairly unstoppable especially with Terran being to strong in the current meta, Dark could take it all but he has to get through Innovation first which uh, I'm not entirely sure if that's even possible right now. He really just knows how to execute absolutely everything perfectly and his reads are pretty much on a Dark level.
Racial distribution is a bit off though, as a Zerg player I don't relish the thought of a TvT finals.
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Innovation lost 2-4 to Dark just yesterday
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 01 2017 05:36 pvsnp wrote:
That makes sense, I guess. Though players #5 to #8 were TY, herO, INnoVation, and Maru. I don't think anyone expects any of those four to fall in qualifiers.
They could end up in the same bracket.
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They could end up in the same bracket.
Aren't the brackets seeded by standings? There should be no way for all 4 high-ranked players to be seeded into the same bracket. Maybe 2, but definitely not all 4.
Innovation looks fairly unstoppable especially with Terran being to strong in the current meta, Dark could take it all but he has to get through Innovation first which uh, I'm not entirely sure if that's even possible right now. He really just knows how to execute absolutely everything perfectly and his reads are pretty much on a Dark level.
Racial distribution is a bit off though, as a Zerg player I don't relish the thought of a TvT finals.
INnoVation looked even more unstoppable before GSL and Katowice, and look at who won those.
He is one of the favorites, to be sure, but hardly invincible.
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EPT
