|
On February 12 2017 13:30 pvsnp wrote:
Seems like most of the conversation around this update is on Corruptors. Consensus seems to be that Zerg in general and Corruptors in particular have no need for a buff, and I tend to agree. Zerg is doing great in terms of winrates atm, almost perfectly 50% in both matchups. There's no need to destabilize this equilibrium.
That said, the 50% winrate is basically dependent on whether Protoss can turtle up to the Golden Armada. If they succeed (about half the time), they autowin. If they fail (the other half) they autolose. So the solution, in broad strokes, would seem to be simple: nerf skytoss, buff groundtoss.
Ideally, the buffs would be to the same units that are used against Terran, to boost the winrates in PvT. Immortal or Colossus would be my preference over Gateway units, but I defer to the balance team for implementation.
Of lesser importance, it would be really great if a few broken abilities could be nerfed, like autoturrets and burrowed fungals.
Zerg AA is crap, just because we can win before a certain composition is attained doesn't mean that composition is imba nor is it justification for allowing it into the game.
Remove Carriers from the game for all I care, complete a-move deathball unit, like SC2 really needs anymore of that, especially from Protoss, if buffed Corruptors skew Zerg's win rate too much then perhaps a sensible Gateway unit buff (Like maybe the Stalker? Hello David?) or anything along those lines, Skytoss OP, groundtoss is not so great until shit tons of Immortals and Archons hit the field and then by that time if the Zerg defended the early game pressure it's like, "Hello Archon/Immortal, say hello to Lurker/Broodlord fleet with Crackling run byes".
|
On February 12 2017 13:30 pvsnp wrote:
Seems like most of the conversation around this update is on Corruptors. Consensus seems to be that Zerg in general and Corruptors in particular have no need for a buff, and I tend to agree. Zerg is doing great in terms of winrates atm, almost perfectly 50% in both matchups. There's no need to destabilize this equilibrium.
That said, the 50% winrate is basically dependent on whether Protoss can turtle up to the Golden Armada. If they succeed (about half the time), they autowin. If they fail (the other half) they autolose. So the solution, in broad strokes, would seem to be simple: nerf skytoss, buff groundtoss.
Ideally, the buffs would be to the same units that are used against Terran, to boost the winrates in PvT. Immortal or Colossus would be my preference over Gateway units, but I defer to the balance team for implementation.
Of lesser importance, it would be really great if a few broken abilities could be nerfed, like autoturrets and burrowed fungals.
just my 2 cents here, but the pro matches look wildly different than average ladder matches (for me at least)
tournament games show that protoss is not afraid of mutas and will play robotics on 2-3 bases, going archon or immortal heavy, if z goes mutas they can jst get rolled by a strong push. balance changes should be made with recent GSL games in mind, i think if you are very high skilled P, it unlocks the matchup to be more than just carriers or bust. again just my opinion
edit: i do agree with auto turret nerf, or just removal of this ability and adding in mech repairing skill or something. burrowed fungals are fine imo. infestors feel underwhelming when you compare the cost/apm committments compared to something like ling bane or ravagers
|
On February 12 2017 14:44 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2017 13:30 pvsnp wrote:
Seems like most of the conversation around this update is on Corruptors. Consensus seems to be that Zerg in general and Corruptors in particular have no need for a buff, and I tend to agree. Zerg is doing great in terms of winrates atm, almost perfectly 50% in both matchups. There's no need to destabilize this equilibrium.
That said, the 50% winrate is basically dependent on whether Protoss can turtle up to the Golden Armada. If they succeed (about half the time), they autowin. If they fail (the other half) they autolose. So the solution, in broad strokes, would seem to be simple: nerf skytoss, buff groundtoss.
Ideally, the buffs would be to the same units that are used against Terran, to boost the winrates in PvT. Immortal or Colossus would be my preference over Gateway units, but I defer to the balance team for implementation.
Of lesser importance, it would be really great if a few broken abilities could be nerfed, like autoturrets and burrowed fungals.
just my 2 cents here, but the pro matches look wildly different than average ladder matches (for me at least) tournament games show that protoss is not afraid of mutas and will play robotics on 2-3 bases, going archon or immortal heavy, if z goes mutas they can jst get rolled by a strong push. balance changes should be made with recent GSL games in mind, i think if you are very high skilled P, it unlocks the matchup to be more than just carriers or bust. again just my opinion edit: i do agree with auto turret nerf, or just removal of this ability and adding in mech repairing skill or something. burrowed fungals are fine imo. infestors feel underwhelming when you compare the cost/apm committments compared to something like ling bane or ravagers
This is all 100% truth imo
|
Ok, time to bring in the real talk here.
1) Swarmhosts are currently ridiculously overpowered versus mech.
This is a fact. You can ask any mech player or even Zerg players themselves, or infested Terrans like myself that play both races. This unit was removed from the game (essentially) for a reason before, and it's because it generates free income.
It needs to be toned down massively. Mech will be viable after that. Increase the price of swarmhosts to double the current price, change swarmhosts to LIGHT TAG so they can be chased down by hellions, and give them less health so that they can be caught and killed.
These nerfs might seem heavyhanded and too many, but this unit honestly does not belong in Starcraft.
2) Along with the above, once swarmhosts are fixed, ravens are the next counter part on the list. Auto-turrets are just as bad as locusts currently, allowing ravens to infinitely scale as they produce free income from energy. My suggestion for this is simply blizzard should increase auto-turret energy to 75 energy.
This fix alone will address ravens without making the unit useless. You'll have to think more carefully about how you allocate energy, since you won't be able to PDD/seeker/mass turret anymore.
3) Tempests/Carriers need to be toned down.
People saying Zerg AA is too weak might not have tried mass burrow neural/fungal + corruptor etc. Zerg AA is fine imo (i play a ton of Zerg) what is not fine are how bullshit carriers are atm. We all know objectively interceptors should be 25 minerals as they originally were, so you can now fungal interceptors or use mines on interceptors to fight the carriers. This alone will fix the carrier issue that everyone knows is a problem, including blizzard.
Just revert interceptors to 25 minerals, and carriers are most likely fixed and not a balance issue anymore.
|
^ Avilo is speaking the truth, he's talking about nerfing toss, nerfing hosts, and nerfing Ravens, seems pretty unbiased to me.
|
On February 12 2017 17:06 jpg06051992 wrote:
^ Avilo is speaking the truth, he's talking about nerfing toss, nerfing hosts, and nerfing Ravens, seems pretty unbiased to me.
^^
Strange still no mention by him that Terran BC's are broken. Thank fuck the Koreans havent caught on to it yet
|
I would be so, so happy to see the corruptor get a nice buff. It is probably one of the most limited unit (function wise) in the entire game atm. This and the hydra buff would make Zerg just so much more stable.
|
1) redesign the SH into an AoE AA that requires T3 but is really powerfull against air armies, and that attack with scourges
2) remplace the raven's auto turret with a defensive matrix spell that costs 50 energy, nerf the recalibrated explosives upgrade by removing the AoE increase and only keeping the tracking range increase
3) buff the BL back to 11 range and buff the cocoon duration to 18 secs from 24 secs
4) remove parasitic bomb and make abduct unable to target ground massive, but give blinding cloud its 10 secs duration back
5) nerf the BC by giving it a shared 5 second delay when one of the ability is used (if you use yamato, you have to wait 5 secs before using tactical jump, or the other way around, to avoid free damage abuse)
Here, mech's fixed
|
On February 12 2017 16:09 avilo wrote:
Ok, time to bring in the real talk here.
1) Swarmhosts are currently ridiculously overpowered versus mech.
This is a fact. You can ask any mech player or even Zerg players themselves, or infested Terrans like myself that play both races. This unit was removed from the game (essentially) for a reason before, and it's because it generates free income.
It needs to be toned down massively. Mech will be viable after that. Increase the price of swarmhosts to double the current price, change swarmhosts to LIGHT TAG so they can be chased down by hellions, and give them less health so that they can be caught and killed.
These nerfs might seem heavyhanded and too many, but this unit honestly does not belong in Starcraft.
2) Along with the above, once swarmhosts are fixed, ravens are the next counter part on the list. Auto-turrets are just as bad as locusts currently, allowing ravens to infinitely scale as they produce free income from energy. My suggestion for this is simply blizzard should increase auto-turret energy to 75 energy.
This fix alone will address ravens without making the unit useless. You'll have to think more carefully about how you allocate energy, since you won't be able to PDD/seeker/mass turret anymore.
3) Tempests/Carriers need to be toned down.
People saying Zerg AA is too weak might not have tried mass burrow neural/fungal + corruptor etc. Zerg AA is fine imo (i play a ton of Zerg) what is not fine are how bullshit carriers are atm. We all know objectively interceptors should be 25 minerals as they originally were, so you can now fungal interceptors or use mines on interceptors to fight the carriers. This alone will fix the carrier issue that everyone knows is a problem, including blizzard.
Just revert interceptors to 25 minerals, and carriers are most likely fixed and not a balance issue anymore.
You forgot to mention that Protoss has no counter to BC/Pdd.
|
Why do tempests need to be nerfed now? I haven't seen a tempest in ages.. :/
|
The hydra buff is a very small and good change, that's why there's very little feedback on it.
Little feedback = good, since people will generally only post when they are outraged or super worried about their own gameplay in platinum league.
Corrupter buff would be amazing, Zerg anti-air has been horrendous and zvp has been in this terrible state where protoss air armies in late game have been untouchable since Hots came out...which is now 4 years ago.
|
On February 12 2017 23:05 Comedy wrote:
The hydra buff is a very small and good change, that's why there's very little feedback on it.
Interpreting silence as acknowledgement is of course arbitrary and the height of egoistic ignorance. Every TL user with a forum account who doesn't object to this statement shares this opinion. *Kappa*
It of course makes Z armys a little bit more a-movy, but as armys with hydras are mixed armys of at least roach rave ger and hydras, atm, it is tough to gauge the actual effect of this buff. Nothing if this means it is a good buff. However, it is not quite clear which problem this buff is supposed to solve. In doubt that fact alone makes it a bad patch on the one hand and easy to remove on the other hand
User was warned for this post
|
On February 12 2017 13:30 pvsnp wrote:
Seems like most of the conversation around this update is on Corruptors. Consensus seems to be that Zerg in general and Corruptors in particular have no need for a buff, and I tend to agree. Zerg is doing great in terms of winrates atm, almost perfectly 50% in both matchups. There's no need to destabilize this equilibrium.
That said, the 50% winrate is basically dependent on whether Protoss can turtle up to the Golden Armada. If they succeed (about half the time), they autowin. If they fail (the other half) they autolose. So the solution, in broad strokes, would seem to be simple: nerf skytoss, buff groundtoss.
Ideally, the buffs would be to the same units that are used against Terran, to boost the winrates in PvT. Immortal or Colossus would be my preference over Gateway units, but I defer to the balance team for implementation.
Of lesser importance, it would be really great if a few broken abilities could be nerfed, like autoturrets and burrowed fungals.
I don't see where you see consensus not to buff corruptors when liquid snute say corruptors buff is a good idea.
And while Zerg winrate isn't 40% on aligulac, the race is the least represent on GSL and have no chance of winning the tournament after the patch 3.8
|
To each according to their abilities, to each according to their need. This should probably be a design philosophy.
|
It's funny that everybody talks about BC's, tempests, lurkers, swarmhosts. And it's fair, cause like me you guys watch streams and those things seem broken. But when we watch the top tier playing I only see A LOT of marines, medivacs liberators, adepts, queens, banelings... Those things yes, are strong and dominant at the matchups as hell.
|
Finally they talk about garbage corruptors after almost 7 years
|
On February 12 2017 23:41 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2017 23:05 Comedy wrote:
The hydra buff is a very small and good change, that's why there's very little feedback on it. Interpreting silence as acknowledgement is of course arbitrary and the height of egoistic ignorance. Every TL user with a forum account who doesn't object to this statement shares this opinion. *Kappa*
When it comes to balance updates it's absolutely true. Everyone who is invested and cares about Starcraft reads those, but what triggers people into writing replies? Rage/Whine/disagreement/discontent. The % of people who think 'wow, nice update', and go on about their day not posting is way higher than the people who are upset about an update and think their reply might still hold some power in swaying the general opinion.
It doesn't take excessive research to realize this.
|
I don't see where you see consensus not to buff corruptors when liquid snute say corruptors buff is a good idea.
Consensus meaning that the majority of the posts regarding Corruptors I have seen say either:
1. This buff won't help Zerg defeat Skytoss.
2. This buff will adversely affect TvZ, which is in a great place rn.
Therefore, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that: This buff should not go through.
And while Zerg winrate isn't 40% on aligulac, the race is the least represent on GSL and have no chance of winning the tournament after the patch 3.8
It's definitely a shame that there aren't more Zergs in the Ro8, but I fail to see any connection between Dark/ByuL/Solar not making it and the impossibility of winning any tournament ever in the current meta. Sample size is way too small, bracket luck/misfortune plays a big role, and skill at the highest levels is so close that matches can (and do) go either way depending on things so small as what people ate for breakfast.
Just because top Zergs are defeated in a specific tournament in no way implies imbalance across all tournaments.
|
On February 13 2017 01:52 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +I don't see where you see consensus not to buff corruptors when liquid snute say corruptors buff is a good idea.
Consensus meaning that the majority of the posts regarding Corruptors I have seen say either: 1. This buff won't help Zerg defeat Skytoss. 2. This buff will adversely affect TvZ, which is in a great place rn. Therefore, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that: This buff should not go through. Show nested quote +
And while Zerg winrate isn't 40% on aligulac, the race is the least represent on GSL and have no chance of winning the tournament after the patch 3.8
It's definitely a shame that there aren't more Zergs in the Ro8, but I fail to see any connection between Dark/ByuL/Solar not making it and the impossibility of winning any tournament ever in the current meta. Sample size is way too small, bracket luck/misfortune plays a big role, and skill at the highest levels is so close that matches can (and do) go either way depending on things so small as what people ate for breakfast. Just because top Zergs are defeated in a specific tournament in no way implies imbalance across all tournaments.
1. This buff will help Zerg defeat Skytoss even though Skytoss will remain OP as always. (At least they can run away from storm a little bit faster)
2. This buff won't affect TvZ adversely, which is still terran favoured anyway.
Therefore, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that: This buff should go through.
|
1. This buff will help Zerg defeat Skytoss even though Skytoss will remain OP as always. (At least they can run away from storm a little bit faster)
2. This buff won't affect TvZ adversely, which is still terran favoured anyway.
Therefore, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that: This buff should go through.
I never said it was my logic. It's just what I've seen across most of the posts here/reddit/bnet.
2. This buff won't affect TvZ adversely, which is still terran favoured anyway.
4M vs Muta/Ling/Bane seems quite balanced to me. Just like in the old days of HotS.
Also TvZ balance has been +/- 3% of 50% for months now on Aligulac, ever since 3.8.
Terran is certainly favored against Protoss, but Zerg?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
