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VHbb
689 Posts
- turtle mech vs swarm host - skytoss - mass raven Then you tune into the most competitive tournament and none of this appears.. but I'm sure Avilo would beat Leenock every day of the week  I mean one is a streamer who builds his reputation and viewership on whining, the other a Code S player | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 16 2017 03:38 VHbb wrote: When I read TL it seems all games should be - turtle mech vs swarm host - skytoss - mass raven Then you tune into the most competitive tournament and none of this appears.. but I'm sure Avilo would beat Leenock every day of the week I mean one is a streamer who builds his reputation and viewership on whining, the other a Code S playerThe game should be designed in a way a lot of people can play the game and have fun. It might be that all these things won't ever affect pro play, but if it does affect everyone else and people dislike it because it promotes bad gameplay then we have a problem. WIth that being said, at least on the lvl i play (diamond league) there isn't much of that going on | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On February 16 2017 03:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: The game should be designed in a way a lot of people can play the game and have fun. It might be that all these things won't ever affect pro play, but if it does affect everyone else and people dislike it because it promotes bad gameplay then we have a problem. WIth that being said, at least on the lvl i play (diamond league) there isn't much of that going on I play vs skytoss almost every ZvP on Proxima and rather often on Honorgrounds. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 16 2017 03:55 Ej_ wrote: I play vs skytoss almost every ZvP on Proxima and rather often on Honorgrounds. Well i don't play much zerg these days. But yeah the last time i lost vs carriers with pure hydra hehe | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On February 16 2017 04:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well i don't play much zerg these days. But yeah the last time i lost vs carriers with pure hydra hehe When i play vs skytoss, i make hydras and lose, they say me i shouldn't have built hydras, and when i make corruptors and lose, that i have the wrong composition. So now i make only all-in vs P or defend them lol But if someone truly know how to beat it, i wanna learn it. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On February 16 2017 04:10 Tyrhanius wrote: When i play vs skytoss, i make hydras and lose, they say me i shouldn't have built hydras, and when i make corruptors and lose, that i have the wrong composition. So now i make only all-in vs P or defend them lol But if someone truly know how to beat it, i wanna learn it. It's pretty annoying to play against, but sounds like you are having macro issues. Do you have some replays we can analyze? When they go skytoss, you can be pretty greedy and drone of a long time. If they are going straight sky toss without pressuring, you can usually get away with a double expo. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 16 2017 06:11 phodacbiet wrote: It's pretty annoying to play against, but sounds like you are having macro issues. Do you have some replays we can analyze? When they go skytoss, you can be pretty greedy and drone of a long time. If they are going straight sky toss without pressuring, you can usually get away with a double expo. In my experience that doesn't really help because the toss can expand faster as well with some canons, etc. If anything you have to hit a timing attack to be able to beat that mass carrier stuff. At the point of carriers + ht/archon you are basically hopeless imo | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
Maybe they should buff thors against carriers so mechers and protosses could turtle until 200 supply and amove into eachother, then their dream of perfect fun game would be fullfilled. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 16 2017 07:25 VHbb wrote: I very rarely saw/played a game where the zerg *never* pressured / pushed before I got carriers + ht/archons (one of the most expensive compositions in the game) come on .. I never said that though? I simply said that when you go full macro the toss can expand faster as well. At the end of the day it simply relies on the toss having an opportunity to get to that composition, i think it works. At least below pro lvl. At that point we have a problem tbh, it's always the same though in sc2. Things are too easy to use and voila there is a problem. Same with mass spellcasters as well. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On February 16 2017 08:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: Things are too easy to use and voila there is a problem. Seems to apply to zerg as a race. According to this, zerg is globally most represented in every league above gold, and least represented in every league below gold. If anything, game might need more casting and abilities to other races than protoss, as conventional balancing techniques aren't very good when problem is relative skill required between races. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On February 16 2017 08:39 temporary1 wrote: Seems to apply to zerg as a race. According to this, zerg is globally most represented in every league above gold, and least represented in every league below gold. If anything, game might need more casting and abilities to other races than protoss, as conventional balancing techniques aren't very good when problem is relative skill required between races. Zerg is easier at the lowest level and is easiest at the highest level but still balanced at the top, theres been alot of Zerg players for a long time, honestly though I run into tons of Terrans in diamond league lately. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
And no. U cannot be as greedy as u think, as good protoss while going into carriers will definitely harras the shit out of you with adepts which are not so gas heavy. On the other hand, taking 3 bases is extremely easy for Protosss, and as we know Terran and Toss on 3 bases can afford everything they like. | ||
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SSMMA
15 Posts
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fx9
117 Posts
On February 16 2017 07:37 xTJx wrote: Idk who's worse, people that try so hard to make Blizzard remove every single thing that counters turtle mech, or the protoss players that think sitting there and making carriers is a good game design. Maybe they should buff thors against carriers so mechers and protosses could turtle until 200 supply and amove into eachother, then their dream of perfect fun game would be fullfilled. Same sentiment I have when met plenty of Zergs who turtle with mass queens spines spores lurkers SH into ultra/broods. Come on, all races have cancerous turtle builds, don't pretend zergs do not turtle. Ofc you would lie to yourself that queen spines spores are good defense/play, that doesn't mean it is not turtleling. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On February 18 2017 12:54 fx9 wrote: Same sentiment I have when met plenty of Zergs who turtle with mass queens spines spores lurkers SH into ultra/broods. Come on, all races have cancerous turtle builds, don't pretend zergs do not turtle. Ofc you would lie to yourself that queen spines spores are good defense/play, that doesn't mean it is not turtleling. we only see that as a reaction when opponent goes carriers, its not a go to build and not relevant at all. | ||
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JoFar
31 Posts
They are not gonna play mech unless you make it stronger then bio, they just have so much more experience with bio that it's just not worth the risk. Yeah ... i already mentioned it in some other threads ... the problem about mech not being viable (although you can argue if that really is the case) is less aber mech being too week or getting to heavily hard-countered but more about bio being to strong compared to mech. Maybe there just need to get some nerfs done to bio ... as playstyles from other races got nerfed over time, too, if they had been to strong (or blizz simply wanted other playstyles to rise up for more diversity). Look at blink stalkers, zealot/archon, roach/ravager (when ravagers were quite broken), BL Infestor and so on. But Blizzard did the opposite. Bio only got stronger with the added units like wm or lib (okay, you can argue, that this is more a bio-mech style then pure bio, but anyways, it has so more possibilities then pure mech ... so why should terran take a risk? It's maybe more a question of design then of balance. If you want to make mech more viable, and you add "mech" units that suite better with bio then with other mech units ... well ... I would go as far and say they should remove wm and lib and add in 2 mech units which suit mech playstyles ... less fast, more strong units. But i'm afraid that would be too much effort anyways. Maybe for another really big patch, if blizzard still will make on besides the smaller changes and updates. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
A pro player has no incentive (this is my guess) to devote a large fraction of his time to come up with a completely new strategy and style, because - he is "betting" on the fact that the new strategy (mech) will be more powerful than the old one (bio); if it is just as powerful as the old one than he doesn't gain that much - he is risking a lot: if you spent 2-3 month just training with mech and then it turns out that the style is not viable at the top level (like GSL, ...) you lost a lot of time, and a lot of practice with the usual style (bio) - so now all other terrans will be "better" than you - there aren't a lot of long periods without competition/tournaments: of course this is good for players, but it also means that there isn't that much time to devote to develop new styles The point is: how can we evaluate if mech is viable or not, without the input of progamers which dedicate themselves to play mech consistently? I don't think that this lack of mech play can be interpreted only as "mech is too weak", because there may be a strong argument that devoting to mech (for a progamer) is a very unsafe bet. (I don't know if I was very clear - english is not my first language  ) There was a very interesting State of the Game episode which touched this argument, but unfortunately I cannot remember which one.. (maybe it was the 100th..) | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
On February 20 2017 22:54 VHbb wrote: I think there may also be a point to be made about how could players train and develop mech strategies. A pro player has no incentive (this is my guess) to devote a large fraction of his time to come up with a completely new strategy and style, because - he is "betting" on the fact that the new strategy (mech) will be more powerful than the old one (bio); if it is just as powerful as the old one than he doesn't gain that much - he is risking a lot: if you spent 2-3 month just training with mech and then it turns out that the style is not viable at the top level (like GSL, ...) you lost a lot of time, and a lot of practice with the usual style (bio) - so now all other terrans will be "better" than you - there aren't a lot of long periods without competition/tournaments: of course this is good for players, but it also means that there isn't that much time to devote to develop new styles The point is: how can we evaluate if mech is viable or not, without the input of progamers which dedicate themselves to play mech consistently? I don't think that this lack of mech play can be interpreted only as "mech is too weak", because there may be a strong argument that devoting to mech (for a progamer) is a very unsafe bet. (I don't know if I was very clear - english is not my first language ) There was a very interesting State of the Game episode which touched this argument, but unfortunately I cannot remember which one.. (maybe it was the 100th..)you were very clear and I think that this is a very interesting point | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On February 20 2017 22:54 VHbb wrote: I think there may also be a point to be made about how could players train and develop mech strategies. A pro player has no incentive (this is my guess) to devote a large fraction of his time to come up with a completely new strategy and style, because - he is "betting" on the fact that the new strategy (mech) will be more powerful than the old one (bio); if it is just as powerful as the old one than he doesn't gain that much - he is risking a lot: if you spent 2-3 month just training with mech and then it turns out that the style is not viable at the top level (like GSL, ...) you lost a lot of time, and a lot of practice with the usual style (bio) - so now all other terrans will be "better" than you - there aren't a lot of long periods without competition/tournaments: of course this is good for players, but it also means that there isn't that much time to devote to develop new styles The point is: how can we evaluate if mech is viable or not, without the input of progamers which dedicate themselves to play mech consistently? I don't think that this lack of mech play can be interpreted only as "mech is too weak", because there may be a strong argument that devoting to mech (for a progamer) is a very unsafe bet. (I don't know if I was very clear - english is not my first language ) There was a very interesting State of the Game episode which touched this argument, but unfortunately I cannot remember which one.. (maybe it was the 100th..)I don't think that's accurate. (at least, not the only reason) The general dynamic of SC2 was foreigners "inventing" metagames, and the koreans perfecting it. In turn, the koreans, because of their level at the game, mainly played against each other, creating a very specific KR meta. Meanwhile, most foreigners just couldn't compete with the raw mechanical skills of koreans. I do agree that since the end of PL and the "exportation" of korean players, this dynamic might have changed a little, however i think it's still more or less the same. What does that mean? On the one hand, there's not much foreign pro terrans anymore. Who is there, as a sucessful terran foreign pro player? Marinelord left, maybe Uthermal, or Demuslim? Maybe Major? And no one, except for Major's "straight into skyterran" build, is playing mech. There was practically no mech play in NA/EU since patch 3.8. On the other hand, because KR players are so used to play in a tiny and specific community, they tend to use the most mainstream style with variations. Mainly because mech revolves so much around specific builds and sneaky/very agressive stuff, once it's figured out, "everyone" knows how to counter it. And when you play in a tiny community where everyone watches everyone play, you can't really get away with a recurrent sneak/ultra agressive build. A good exemple was Innovation playing the same mech build every game against Dark at the IEM Gyeonggi finals. We could see that Dark was still adaptating throught the BO to try and figure out the 2 reactored factories into mech build. In the end, Innovation won. Fast forward few months, Byun uses the same build against Ptak at nationwars, and he gets wrecked because ptak went for fast mutas. This is a good exemple of a mech build that was used by Inno, either because it wasn't figured out yet, either because he identified that Dark had a specific weakness. But when it gets figured out, it can completely whiff. So what do we end up with? - NA/EU : few sucessfull terrans, and no mech play - KR : KR top players aren't coming up with a "mech vs zerg standard" meta, but snipe/sneaky builds (if i'm wrong, feel free to correct) I think that at this point, if better results in the foreign scene could be achieved with mech play, the few sucessfull terran players we have would have come up with some mech vs zerg meta in 3.8. And KR terran top players (who are doing quite well at the moment) mech builds are snipe/cheesy builds, that don't rely on much any meta. We could see that leenock, playing against Ryung, played the HOTS meta. No use of SHs, roach hydras into fast vipers. And that's why mech, i think, despite all the indirect reasons we can think of, has proven itself not to be viable. Because there's no "standard meta". No standard build. No "reaper expand into 2 medivacs 16 marine stim drop". It's entirely based on sneaky/ultra agressive stuff where you either gain a very early advantage, or fail. | ||
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