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On February 11 2017 11:22 Kokujin wrote:
i like that suggestion earlier about balancing around similar apm=similar advantages for all races.
I disagree. A style/race requires more or less repetitive/mindless actions, which may certainly be different from smart decision making involved. Plus the how-to-measure-APM has never truly been solved. SC is not just a mechanical game. It's about decision making too. Just not a solution.
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I actually like all of this. Though, I think hydra buff should go through. I think the mech qq about the hydras is a little overstated... corrupters don't fully counter mech how they do v skytoss. And the hydra health buff is pretty laughable for tanks, but slightly more important vs bio (which might actually open up more interesting possibilities for mech games)
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On February 15 2017 03:39 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 10:03 Tresher wrote:On February 14 2017 09:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 14 2017 06:31 Tresher wrote:On February 13 2017 16:49 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 06:57 MockHamill wrote:On February 12 2017 16:09 avilo wrote:
Ok, time to bring in the real talk here.
1) Swarmhosts are currently ridiculously overpowered versus mech.
This is a fact. You can ask any mech player or even Zerg players themselves, or infested Terrans like myself that play both races. This unit was removed from the game (essentially) for a reason before, and it's because it generates free income.
It needs to be toned down massively. Mech will be viable after that. Increase the price of swarmhosts to double the current price, change swarmhosts to LIGHT TAG so they can be chased down by hellions, and give them less health so that they can be caught and killed.
These nerfs might seem heavyhanded and too many, but this unit honestly does not belong in Starcraft.
2) Along with the above, once swarmhosts are fixed, ravens are the next counter part on the list. Auto-turrets are just as bad as locusts currently, allowing ravens to infinitely scale as they produce free income from energy. My suggestion for this is simply blizzard should increase auto-turret energy to 75 energy.
This fix alone will address ravens without making the unit useless. You'll have to think more carefully about how you allocate energy, since you won't be able to PDD/seeker/mass turret anymore.
3) Tempests/Carriers need to be toned down.
People saying Zerg AA is too weak might not have tried mass burrow neural/fungal + corruptor etc. Zerg AA is fine imo (i play a ton of Zerg) what is not fine are how bullshit carriers are atm. We all know objectively interceptors should be 25 minerals as they originally were, so you can now fungal interceptors or use mines on interceptors to fight the carriers. This alone will fix the carrier issue that everyone knows is a problem, including blizzard.
Just revert interceptors to 25 minerals, and carriers are most likely fixed and not a balance issue anymore.
Everyone knows that Swarm Hosts are broken, A lie repeted multiple times doesn't become a truth Ignoring an obvious issue doesnt make a balanced game either. Seriously wtf are you talking about? Is this another one of your troll attempts, considering your post history, or are you just that ignorant? Plenty of players have already approved (besides TL) that Swarmhosts and Ravens are among the most broken Units. But sure keep posting unproductive comments that lead to nowhere instead of contributing something constructive. Im sure this will make the game more balanced. Who agree with that ? Avilo, you, platium/diamond terrans ? The unit has a huge supply, and is useless most of the time, between 15 SH and 90 zerglings/banelings, i obviously choose 90 zerglings, even vs mech (with upgrades when you avoid the hellbat they are surprising good vs thor/tanks/cyclon) Mutas, faster hive for vipers/broodlords, all of that is better than building SH... How you explain Gumiho, Innovation, TY manage to play mech (it's not me that say that it's Scarlett) while it's "it's not viable"... SH is niche unit, it's barely viable vs mech while completly useless vs the rest, but well it's me the troll while you call it "Broken overpowered units" Do play zerg, play this "imba "unit, you'll probably crush every mech player, or not... It's your personnal opinion, not an universally truth like you pretend, so yeah i disagree, insult me, bully me if you want, i won't cede because some other people think like you. Just because you are bad at using it doesn´t make it any less broken. I know what Scarlett said but just because ONE pro player says THREE other pro players can make it work doesn´t make it viable either. And btw I called it "Broken Unit" not "broken overpowered Unit" thats a difference. Of course Ignorant Zerg players like you are gonna defend this unit because they are scared their freewins will get taken away from them. But hey we are at a point where people call others "ludicrous" because they want something broken fixed, man this community...no wonder this game is such a mess right now. And thanks for the "barely viable vs Mech", had a good laugh out of that XD. Who is your three pro players ? Quote them, if there are real... But no, it's just things you invent...And please don't say avilo, and co, there are not pro players, they don't win any tournaments, they're not professionnal, and they whine long before SH exists... So i don't use SH because i'm bad, but i defend them because they give me free wins lol ? You contradict yourself, big proof your arguments are false. You know what will happened if Mech become OP ? Zerg will leave the game, that's all. We've already had a few days ago a topic from a GM terran playing mech (which is not viable according to you) that was complaining he played too many TvT... Must be so glad to play TvT as "It's the only MU where mech is viable", and "Mech is so good for the game", but apparently no... what a surprise ! Protoss have nearly all left the game, Zerg still stays but between the "Double medivac drops" "3 rax reapers" "cyclon-hellion" everygame, and the "All-in before skytoss", Zerg players are really close to the exit, push them and well, i hope TvT is your favorite MU.
You mention Gumiho, Innovation and TY yourself. Then you say "who are these three players"... -_- . Yeah you are deinetly trolling considering your posting history. Not wasting my energy and time with Ignorant biased Zerg players like you anymore. And stop putting words in our mouth. We dont want Mech to be OP. We want it to be viable to a point where even pro players use it. As an actual strategy that is. Not as an gimmicky all-in tactic that only works because the opponent got caught by surprise. We get it. You don´t like Mech like many Zerg players and therefore it shouldn´t be played or be viable. Nice logic.
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Netherlands891 Posts
On February 15 2017 07:05 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 03:39 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 14 2017 10:03 Tresher wrote:On February 14 2017 09:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 14 2017 06:31 Tresher wrote:On February 13 2017 16:49 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 06:57 MockHamill wrote:On February 12 2017 16:09 avilo wrote:
Ok, time to bring in the real talk here.
1) Swarmhosts are currently ridiculously overpowered versus mech.
This is a fact. You can ask any mech player or even Zerg players themselves, or infested Terrans like myself that play both races. This unit was removed from the game (essentially) for a reason before, and it's because it generates free income.
It needs to be toned down massively. Mech will be viable after that. Increase the price of swarmhosts to double the current price, change swarmhosts to LIGHT TAG so they can be chased down by hellions, and give them less health so that they can be caught and killed.
These nerfs might seem heavyhanded and too many, but this unit honestly does not belong in Starcraft.
2) Along with the above, once swarmhosts are fixed, ravens are the next counter part on the list. Auto-turrets are just as bad as locusts currently, allowing ravens to infinitely scale as they produce free income from energy. My suggestion for this is simply blizzard should increase auto-turret energy to 75 energy.
This fix alone will address ravens without making the unit useless. You'll have to think more carefully about how you allocate energy, since you won't be able to PDD/seeker/mass turret anymore.
3) Tempests/Carriers need to be toned down.
People saying Zerg AA is too weak might not have tried mass burrow neural/fungal + corruptor etc. Zerg AA is fine imo (i play a ton of Zerg) what is not fine are how bullshit carriers are atm. We all know objectively interceptors should be 25 minerals as they originally were, so you can now fungal interceptors or use mines on interceptors to fight the carriers. This alone will fix the carrier issue that everyone knows is a problem, including blizzard.
Just revert interceptors to 25 minerals, and carriers are most likely fixed and not a balance issue anymore.
Everyone knows that Swarm Hosts are broken, A lie repeted multiple times doesn't become a truth Ignoring an obvious issue doesnt make a balanced game either. Seriously wtf are you talking about? Is this another one of your troll attempts, considering your post history, or are you just that ignorant? Plenty of players have already approved (besides TL) that Swarmhosts and Ravens are among the most broken Units. But sure keep posting unproductive comments that lead to nowhere instead of contributing something constructive. Im sure this will make the game more balanced. Who agree with that ? Avilo, you, platium/diamond terrans ? The unit has a huge supply, and is useless most of the time, between 15 SH and 90 zerglings/banelings, i obviously choose 90 zerglings, even vs mech (with upgrades when you avoid the hellbat they are surprising good vs thor/tanks/cyclon) Mutas, faster hive for vipers/broodlords, all of that is better than building SH... How you explain Gumiho, Innovation, TY manage to play mech (it's not me that say that it's Scarlett) while it's "it's not viable"... SH is niche unit, it's barely viable vs mech while completly useless vs the rest, but well it's me the troll while you call it "Broken overpowered units" Do play zerg, play this "imba "unit, you'll probably crush every mech player, or not... It's your personnal opinion, not an universally truth like you pretend, so yeah i disagree, insult me, bully me if you want, i won't cede because some other people think like you. Just because you are bad at using it doesn´t make it any less broken. I know what Scarlett said but just because ONE pro player says THREE other pro players can make it work doesn´t make it viable either. And btw I called it "Broken Unit" not "broken overpowered Unit" thats a difference. Of course Ignorant Zerg players like you are gonna defend this unit because they are scared their freewins will get taken away from them. But hey we are at a point where people call others "ludicrous" because they want something broken fixed, man this community...no wonder this game is such a mess right now. And thanks for the "barely viable vs Mech", had a good laugh out of that XD. Who is your three pro players ? Quote them, if there are real... But no, it's just things you invent...And please don't say avilo, and co, there are not pro players, they don't win any tournaments, they're not professionnal, and they whine long before SH exists... So i don't use SH because i'm bad, but i defend them because they give me free wins lol ? You contradict yourself, big proof your arguments are false. You know what will happened if Mech become OP ? Zerg will leave the game, that's all. We've already had a few days ago a topic from a GM terran playing mech (which is not viable according to you) that was complaining he played too many TvT... Must be so glad to play TvT as "It's the only MU where mech is viable", and "Mech is so good for the game", but apparently no... what a surprise ! Protoss have nearly all left the game, Zerg still stays but between the "Double medivac drops" "3 rax reapers" "cyclon-hellion" everygame, and the "All-in before skytoss", Zerg players are really close to the exit, push them and well, i hope TvT is your favorite MU. You mention Gumiho, Innovation and TY yourself. Then you say "who are these three players"... -_- . Yeah you are deinetly trolling considering your posting history. Not wasting my energy and time with Ignorant biased Zerg players like you anymore. And stop putting words in our mouth. We dont want Mech to be OP. We want it to be viable to a point where even pro players use it. As an actual strategy that is. Not as an gimmicky all-in tactic that only works because the opponent got caught by surprise. We get it. You don´t like Mech like many Zerg players and therefore it shouldn´t be played or be viable. Nice logic.
And pro players are playing mech on ladder, so what is the problem?
But yeah people prefer playing bio in tournaments because that is what they have played for the past years and have a lot of experience with.
Zergs in korea don't even stand a chance vs the top Terrans atm, because bio is so strong.
They are not gonna play mech unless you make it stronger then bio, they just have so much more experience with bio that it's just not worth the risk.
But keep whining about a problem that isn't there, mech is perfectly viable on ladder, even in GM.
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Funny how most of the Zerg players keeps saying its viable and dismiss it as whining while lots of Terran players say the opposite. What are you guys afraid of? If it´s done right there wont be an Swarhost/Raven era like in HotS. But you guys rather still mention that it´s perfectly viable cause you saw a handful of players won a handful of games with it.
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Just give zerg a better option for combatting airtoss without breaking z v t. Whether its hydras or corruptors or increasing viper bomb dmg vs shields.
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On February 15 2017 07:05 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 03:39 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 14 2017 10:03 Tresher wrote:On February 14 2017 09:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 14 2017 06:31 Tresher wrote:On February 13 2017 16:49 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 06:57 MockHamill wrote:On February 12 2017 16:09 avilo wrote:
Ok, time to bring in the real talk here.
1) Swarmhosts are currently ridiculously overpowered versus mech.
This is a fact. You can ask any mech player or even Zerg players themselves, or infested Terrans like myself that play both races. This unit was removed from the game (essentially) for a reason before, and it's because it generates free income.
It needs to be toned down massively. Mech will be viable after that. Increase the price of swarmhosts to double the current price, change swarmhosts to LIGHT TAG so they can be chased down by hellions, and give them less health so that they can be caught and killed.
These nerfs might seem heavyhanded and too many, but this unit honestly does not belong in Starcraft.
2) Along with the above, once swarmhosts are fixed, ravens are the next counter part on the list. Auto-turrets are just as bad as locusts currently, allowing ravens to infinitely scale as they produce free income from energy. My suggestion for this is simply blizzard should increase auto-turret energy to 75 energy.
This fix alone will address ravens without making the unit useless. You'll have to think more carefully about how you allocate energy, since you won't be able to PDD/seeker/mass turret anymore.
3) Tempests/Carriers need to be toned down.
People saying Zerg AA is too weak might not have tried mass burrow neural/fungal + corruptor etc. Zerg AA is fine imo (i play a ton of Zerg) what is not fine are how bullshit carriers are atm. We all know objectively interceptors should be 25 minerals as they originally were, so you can now fungal interceptors or use mines on interceptors to fight the carriers. This alone will fix the carrier issue that everyone knows is a problem, including blizzard.
Just revert interceptors to 25 minerals, and carriers are most likely fixed and not a balance issue anymore.
Everyone knows that Swarm Hosts are broken, A lie repeted multiple times doesn't become a truth Ignoring an obvious issue doesnt make a balanced game either. Seriously wtf are you talking about? Is this another one of your troll attempts, considering your post history, or are you just that ignorant? Plenty of players have already approved (besides TL) that Swarmhosts and Ravens are among the most broken Units. But sure keep posting unproductive comments that lead to nowhere instead of contributing something constructive. Im sure this will make the game more balanced. Who agree with that ? Avilo, you, platium/diamond terrans ? The unit has a huge supply, and is useless most of the time, between 15 SH and 90 zerglings/banelings, i obviously choose 90 zerglings, even vs mech (with upgrades when you avoid the hellbat they are surprising good vs thor/tanks/cyclon) Mutas, faster hive for vipers/broodlords, all of that is better than building SH... How you explain Gumiho, Innovation, TY manage to play mech (it's not me that say that it's Scarlett) while it's "it's not viable"... SH is niche unit, it's barely viable vs mech while completly useless vs the rest, but well it's me the troll while you call it "Broken overpowered units" Do play zerg, play this "imba "unit, you'll probably crush every mech player, or not... It's your personnal opinion, not an universally truth like you pretend, so yeah i disagree, insult me, bully me if you want, i won't cede because some other people think like you. Just because you are bad at using it doesn´t make it any less broken. I know what Scarlett said but just because ONE pro player says THREE other pro players can make it work doesn´t make it viable either. And btw I called it "Broken Unit" not "broken overpowered Unit" thats a difference. Of course Ignorant Zerg players like you are gonna defend this unit because they are scared their freewins will get taken away from them. But hey we are at a point where people call others "ludicrous" because they want something broken fixed, man this community...no wonder this game is such a mess right now. And thanks for the "barely viable vs Mech", had a good laugh out of that XD. Who is your three pro players ? Quote them, if there are real... But no, it's just things you invent...And please don't say avilo, and co, there are not pro players, they don't win any tournaments, they're not professionnal, and they whine long before SH exists... So i don't use SH because i'm bad, but i defend them because they give me free wins lol ? You contradict yourself, big proof your arguments are false. You know what will happened if Mech become OP ? Zerg will leave the game, that's all. We've already had a few days ago a topic from a GM terran playing mech (which is not viable according to you) that was complaining he played too many TvT... Must be so glad to play TvT as "It's the only MU where mech is viable", and "Mech is so good for the game", but apparently no... what a surprise ! Protoss have nearly all left the game, Zerg still stays but between the "Double medivac drops" "3 rax reapers" "cyclon-hellion" everygame, and the "All-in before skytoss", Zerg players are really close to the exit, push them and well, i hope TvT is your favorite MU. You mention Gumiho, Innovation and TY yourself. Then you say "who are these three players"... -_- . Yeah you are deinetly trolling considering your posting history. Not wasting my energy and time with Ignorant biased Zerg players like you anymore. And stop putting words in our mouth. We dont want Mech to be OP. We want it to be viable to a point where even pro players use it. As an actual strategy that is. Not as an gimmicky all-in tactic that only works because the opponent got caught by surprise. We get it. You don´t like Mech like many Zerg players and therefore it shouldn´t be played or be viable. Nice logic.
I mention they play mech, proving it's viable, never heard them said something about "SH is broken"...
Your speech is so confuse, and there is nothing convincing so you use multiple insults to try to make a point...
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I don't understand why they didn't go with +1 armor on the hydra instead of the +10 hp. It make hydra better vs T where they are currently unsable and better vs carriers which are considered OP vs Z while not buffing it significantly in all other situations vs P where hydra are considered already good.
+10 hp on the other hand make hydra generically more good vs P where it is already good but is worse than +1 armor vs carriers which are considered problematic in the MU.
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Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T
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Netherlands891 Posts
On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T
Inb4 someone saying only viable cuz Zerg played bad and didn't make SH
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On February 15 2017 20:17 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T Inb4 someone saying only viable cuz Zerg played bad and didn't make SH
Well Leenock was horrible in the mech games. And he didn't make the SH people want to see.
But mech seems fine to me.
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On February 15 2017 20:22 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:17 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T Inb4 someone saying only viable cuz Zerg played bad and didn't make SH Well Leenock was horrible in the mech games. And he didn't make the SH people want to see. But mech seems fine to me.
Mech if fine if Zerg does not make Swarm Hosts. Mech is perfectly viable in that situation.
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On February 15 2017 20:25 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:22 Elentos wrote:On February 15 2017 20:17 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T Inb4 someone saying only viable cuz Zerg played bad and didn't make SH Well Leenock was horrible in the mech games. And he didn't make the SH people want to see. But mech seems fine to me. Mech if fine if Zerg does not make Swarm Hosts. Mech is perfectly viable in that situation.
I haven't seen any pro games that made it look like SH make mech obsolete. So I'll stick with "Mech is fine".
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On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T
I was waiting for this :
- one game where leenock didn't scout a liberator range build.
- one game where he completely choked and lost 20+ drones to simple hellion runbies, then allowed the extremely tank heavy army of Ryung to cross the entirety of cross position cactus valley without contest whatsoever.
No SH in any game.
Every game lost to the first mech push because there was only 2-3 vipers ready instead of the mandatory 4-5.
No mutas in any game despite lib range build or banshee build.
"Yeah so i guess mech is fine"
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On February 15 2017 20:27 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T I was waiting for this : - one game where leenock didn't scout a liberator range build. - one game where he completely choked and lost 20+ drones to simple hellion runbies, then allowed the extremely tank heavy army of Ryung to cross the entirety of cross position cactus valley without contest whatsoever. No SH in any game. Every game lost to the first mech push because there was only 2-3 vipers ready instead of the mandatory 4-5. No mutas in any game despite lib range build or banshee build. "Yeah so i guess mech is fine"
...right, so the better player won. Exactly how it should be.
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On February 15 2017 20:27 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T I was waiting for this : - one game where leenock didn't scout a liberator range build. - one game where he completely choked and lost 20+ drones to simple hellion runbies, then allowed the extremely tank heavy army of Ryung to cross the entirety of cross position cactus valley without contest whatsoever. No SH in any game. Every game lost to the first mech push because there was only 2-3 vipers ready instead of the mandatory 4-5. No mutas in any game despite lib range build or banshee build. "Yeah so i guess mech is fine"
Dont feed the trolls. A classic troll post the one you quoted.
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On February 15 2017 22:45 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:27 JackONeill wrote:On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T I was waiting for this : - one game where leenock didn't scout a liberator range build. - one game where he completely choked and lost 20+ drones to simple hellion runbies, then allowed the extremely tank heavy army of Ryung to cross the entirety of cross position cactus valley without contest whatsoever. No SH in any game. Every game lost to the first mech push because there was only 2-3 vipers ready instead of the mandatory 4-5. No mutas in any game despite lib range build or banshee build. "Yeah so i guess mech is fine" ...right, so the better player won. Exactly how it should be.
i'm enjoying watching the GSL this season ... people pissing, moaning and complaining about how horrible the game is... i'm not sure what it is they're watching. they post up a bunch of vague, tenuous-at-best generalizations based on small sample sizes.
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Well i guess the game is fine atm if u're not playing Zerg.
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On February 15 2017 23:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 22:45 InfCereal wrote:On February 15 2017 20:27 JackONeill wrote:On February 15 2017 20:08 Aegwynn wrote:
Ryung 2 - 1 Leenock, two solid wins with mech. But mech is not viable guyz T.T I was waiting for this : - one game where leenock didn't scout a liberator range build. - one game where he completely choked and lost 20+ drones to simple hellion runbies, then allowed the extremely tank heavy army of Ryung to cross the entirety of cross position cactus valley without contest whatsoever. No SH in any game. Every game lost to the first mech push because there was only 2-3 vipers ready instead of the mandatory 4-5. No mutas in any game despite lib range build or banshee build. "Yeah so i guess mech is fine" ...right, so the better player won. Exactly how it should be. i'm enjoying watching the GSL this season ... people pissing, moaning and complaining about how horrible the game is... i'm not sure what it is they're watching. they post up a bunch of vague, tenuous-at-best generalizations based on small sample sizes.
hmmm...
you tell em JJR! (with your bunch of vague, tenuous-at-best generalizations based on small sample sizes.)
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On February 15 2017 23:16 hiroshOne wrote:
Well i guess the game is fine atm if u're not playing Zerg.
I disagree, Zerg is balanced if not a teeny tiny bit strong vs. Protoss (not Skytoss it's imbalanced as shit) but Terran is in probably one of the best places they have been. The SH vs Mech being broken thing is vastly overstated by Avilo, tanks are ludicrously strong as are Ravens and it's not like those things being better made bio any weaker.
Hopefully hydralisk buffs open up some diversity, but if David and the team want to be taken seriously right now they need to put a Raven redesign along with a SH one on the table, both units are cancer except Ravens are cancer vs everything and SH are a cancer to mech (when played flawlessly) and that can hardly be good for the meta.
I gotta get my cry out, but if the meta goes back to some type of Skytoss (P) mass Raven/turtle mech (T) crap I will 100% be putting this game down never to look back, it wasn't fun to watch or play against in HOTS and it's not any less terrible now, if Avilo wants to go play in a meta where mech is the go to he should go play Brood War.
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EPT
