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On February 06 2017 18:08 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 08:32 parkufarku wrote:On February 06 2017 06:04 starkiller123 wrote:
Terran would get absolutely destroyed if marines couldn't target air, wtf are you talking about. It wouldn't be a bad idea as long as T gets an anti-air compensation, like Cyclone anti-air buff or something at same time He has a point, the very first T1 units should not be able to defend against air. Queens are excluded from this because you can't mass them as easily as marines - they don't cost 50 and pop out super fast Terran still needs to build an Engineering Bay just to get a Missile Turret. And they have nothing else that can shoot air reliably fast before an Oracle (or even a MSC) can arrive. Oracles would ravage everything in TvP, forcing Terran into an Engineering Bay and multiple Missile Turrets just to ward off the potential threat of the Oracle since your modified Marines can't shoot them down. If Protoss then comes in with a bunch of Blink Stalkers it's instant GG. It's not really an option. If Widow Mines are changed to not one-shot Oracles anymore then 6 early Marines will be the only truly viable defense in early game TvP. It sadly also forces Terran to get 6 early Marines in every single TvP, again because of the potential threat of the Oracle. It just pidgeon holes TvP openings even more. Either keep the Widow Mine as it is versus single targets and only reduce the splash or remove the Engineering Bay requirement for building a Missile Turret.
Oracles are a legit concern if marines don't have AA, but this is why I said cyclones could get a buff compensation in return to address air units. And oracle build time could be increased.
Leaving WM as strong as it currently is, is silly. It's too strong for its cost. Increase the supply & cost if you want to leave it able to 1 shot targets like it currently does. 75 mineral 25 gas 2 supply unit that has potential to take out 1000 mineral / 1000 gas worth of units in 1 shot thanks to a simple mistake or mis-micro or inattention? Doesn't sound right to me.
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1. Tempest.
A brief historical reference: it was initially introduced as anti-muta unit with aoe (which is obviously a bad design decision that leads to massing of a certain unit, liberator pre-nerf is a good example of why you don't want air units with ranged aoe attack in the game), then it was redesigned into anti-massive siege unit. A very arguable role, but still it somehow "worked" in HoTS as a "answer" to BL/SH/Terran Ghost/Viking late game. With the LoTV release Tempest was barely used, so blizzard decided to redesign it once more and failed. So it was reverted to an old version and (!) severly nerfed (?). That's even more of a mystery to me than the initial purpose of the unit. And by nerf I mean a 50% supply increase. NOONE uses tempest at all as it became a complete trash unit. Terrans laugh at you as a fleet of BC + a single raven annihilates your whole tempest army w/o a single loss. The math is simple here. They take 6 of your supply so having a tempest based comp is always worse than having same amount of carriers in ANY situation. Carriers insanely outdps tempests, have almost the same range, immune to pdd.
So, my question is. What is the justification of this unit to be present in the game? What role does it fulfill now? And seems to me that there is no answer to that. It obvious that tempest should just go (and should never be implemented in the first place).
2. Carrier and air-based compositions.
I will be brief here. As a protoss player, who won an insane amount of pvz with carriers (on a low master level), after watching lots of vods/streams that showcase abusing that style I want to say. We don't want that kind of starcraft. Noone does. This playstyle is not mechanically demanding, its easy to execute, easy to micro (mass 16 carriers and A-CLICK, that’s literally what it takes to win games, even on Stats/Naniwas stream), promotes turtling, insanely boring to watch and play, frustrating to lose against. And that applies to any race (BL/Vipers deathballs, BCs). It contradicts with a DK statement that he wants SC2 to be the hardest game on the planet. Blizzard please tone down air units. This should only work as a surprise/sneaky strat. Please, revert carriers to Hots state. Or nerf interceptor damage, or their attack speed whatsoever.
3. Protoss ground-based compositions.
Just 2 things. Mines and Banelings. There is a reason why blizzard is trying to buff colossi every now and then. At first it was 10% attack speed increase. Then a + 4 to light proposal. And the reason is: Protoss can't fight evenly on the ground vs Zerg (mostly) and Terran (to a lesser extent). TvP is not THAT of a problem because protoss CAN sneak a colossi tech in, while in pvz you will be insta-countered with mutas. Im not saying its completely unplayable, but its obvious that protoss gateway units are extremely vulnerable to other races insanely cheap and reliable aoe tier 1 units. All I want to ask of blizzard is.
Do something to this w/o buffing colossi, e.g:
remove + shield damage on mines completely (on splash),
revert banelings HP buff and make them do 15 + 20 to light (instead of 20 + 15 to light). They will still annihilate adepts and zealots but at least it will help to save stalkers (that struggle so much vs zerg) and other protoss units that are not light.
P.S. And SH must go as well. For real.
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On February 06 2017 18:38 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 18:08 Thezzy wrote:On February 06 2017 08:32 parkufarku wrote:On February 06 2017 06:04 starkiller123 wrote:
Terran would get absolutely destroyed if marines couldn't target air, wtf are you talking about. It wouldn't be a bad idea as long as T gets an anti-air compensation, like Cyclone anti-air buff or something at same time He has a point, the very first T1 units should not be able to defend against air. Queens are excluded from this because you can't mass them as easily as marines - they don't cost 50 and pop out super fast Terran still needs to build an Engineering Bay just to get a Missile Turret. And they have nothing else that can shoot air reliably fast before an Oracle (or even a MSC) can arrive. Oracles would ravage everything in TvP, forcing Terran into an Engineering Bay and multiple Missile Turrets just to ward off the potential threat of the Oracle since your modified Marines can't shoot them down. If Protoss then comes in with a bunch of Blink Stalkers it's instant GG. It's not really an option. If Widow Mines are changed to not one-shot Oracles anymore then 6 early Marines will be the only truly viable defense in early game TvP. It sadly also forces Terran to get 6 early Marines in every single TvP, again because of the potential threat of the Oracle. It just pidgeon holes TvP openings even more. Either keep the Widow Mine as it is versus single targets and only reduce the splash or remove the Engineering Bay requirement for building a Missile Turret. Oracles are a legit concern if marines don't have AA, but this is why I said cyclones could get a buff compensation in return to address air units. And oracle build time could be increased. Leaving WM as strong as it currently is, is silly. It's too strong for its cost. Increase the supply & cost if you want to leave it able to 1 shot targets like it currently does. 75 mineral 25 gas 2 supply unit that has potential to take out 1000 mineral / 1000 gas worth of units in 1 shot thanks to a simple mistake or mis-micro or inattention? Doesn't sound right to me.
Keep in mind that a Widow Mine takes up 2 supply and only fires once every 40 seconds or so and it has to get into position first. (and that position can be seen)
Hallucinations or Blink can deal with Widow Mine shots. I'd be fine with a Widow Mine nerf as long as the Oracle can be properly dealt with. Purely by existing it forces Terran to built defenses against it because if you don't a single Oracle can win the game for Protoss. They fly too fast and deal far too much damage to be slowly poked to death by a Cyclone.
By the time one Cyclone (which isn't cheap and would have to be built purely for AA) destroys it you're looking at a lot of SCV losses. Maybe if the Oracle speed and damage against Light was curbed a bit I could agree to a Widow Mine nerf.
I was never fond of the Widow Mine myself and always preferred the tank but it just didn't measure up.
That all said, Marines will need their AA at all times if not just for TvZ alone. Just think fast 2 base Mutalisks.
Thors won't arrive in time and can be magicboxed, the Widow Mine shots can be tanked by Overseers and Liberators will simply be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Cyclones are too big and costly to properly provide anti-air without gimping ground presence. Anti-air needs to be present on a relatively cheap/massable unit, which is currently Marine/Stalker/Hydra for the three races.
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On February 07 2017 00:27 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 18:38 parkufarku wrote:On February 06 2017 18:08 Thezzy wrote:On February 06 2017 08:32 parkufarku wrote:On February 06 2017 06:04 starkiller123 wrote:
Terran would get absolutely destroyed if marines couldn't target air, wtf are you talking about. It wouldn't be a bad idea as long as T gets an anti-air compensation, like Cyclone anti-air buff or something at same time He has a point, the very first T1 units should not be able to defend against air. Queens are excluded from this because you can't mass them as easily as marines - they don't cost 50 and pop out super fast Terran still needs to build an Engineering Bay just to get a Missile Turret. And they have nothing else that can shoot air reliably fast before an Oracle (or even a MSC) can arrive. Oracles would ravage everything in TvP, forcing Terran into an Engineering Bay and multiple Missile Turrets just to ward off the potential threat of the Oracle since your modified Marines can't shoot them down. If Protoss then comes in with a bunch of Blink Stalkers it's instant GG. It's not really an option. If Widow Mines are changed to not one-shot Oracles anymore then 6 early Marines will be the only truly viable defense in early game TvP. It sadly also forces Terran to get 6 early Marines in every single TvP, again because of the potential threat of the Oracle. It just pidgeon holes TvP openings even more. Either keep the Widow Mine as it is versus single targets and only reduce the splash or remove the Engineering Bay requirement for building a Missile Turret. Oracles are a legit concern if marines don't have AA, but this is why I said cyclones could get a buff compensation in return to address air units. And oracle build time could be increased. Leaving WM as strong as it currently is, is silly. It's too strong for its cost. Increase the supply & cost if you want to leave it able to 1 shot targets like it currently does. 75 mineral 25 gas 2 supply unit that has potential to take out 1000 mineral / 1000 gas worth of units in 1 shot thanks to a simple mistake or mis-micro or inattention? Doesn't sound right to me. Keep in mind that a Widow Mine takes up 2 supply and only fires once every 40 seconds or so and it has to get into position first. (and that position can be seen) Hallucinations or Blink can deal with Widow Mine shots. I'd be fine with a Widow Mine nerf as long as the Oracle can be properly dealt with. Purely by existing it forces Terran to built defenses against it because if you don't a single Oracle can win the game for Protoss. They fly too fast and deal far too much damage to be slowly poked to death by a Cyclone. By the time one Cyclone (which isn't cheap and would have to be built purely for AA) destroys it you're looking at a lot of SCV losses. Maybe if the Oracle speed and damage against Light was curbed a bit I could agree to a Widow Mine nerf. I was never fond of the Widow Mine myself and always preferred the tank but it just didn't measure up. That all said, Marines will need their AA at all times if not just for TvZ alone. Just think fast 2 base Mutalisks. Thors won't arrive in time and can be magicboxed, the Widow Mine shots can be tanked by Overseers and Liberators will simply be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Cyclones are too big and costly to properly provide anti-air without gimping ground presence. Anti-air needs to be present on a relatively cheap/massable unit, which is currently Marine/Stalker/Hydra for the three races.
Stalkers is anything but cheap & massable unit, is one of the shittiest dps unit in the game.
Agree with you that Terran needs WM as AA for oracles & mass mutas.
But that's what wrong with David Kim & co, you don't generally design a gimmicky unit to counter another gimmicky unit. (Yes, I am looking at you! widow mines, fast regen mutas & oracles, ahem, ahem)
All 3 units are very frustrating to play against, and only bring enjoyment to the players that abuse them & IMHO, contributes nothing to the spectacle of a game.
Oh, I forgot to mention the random +10hp centrifugal hook that David Kim's team randomly pull out of their asses.
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so the widow mine change really got through? wow am i the only one that remembers we had this change before in the beginning of hots and it didnt work out then...
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I played a couple of games on Abyssal Reef yesterday and gotta say that Blizz botched their pathfinding algortithms really bad. There are very serious issues when you wanna transfer your units across the map. The majority of my army got stuck behind buildings and were dancing around for 2 minutes doing nothing until I realized where they really were. Blizz gives you some new maps that are not necessarily bad but which have a lot of technical glitches (I'm thinking about Abyssal Reef with your units getting stuck behind buildings, New Gettysburg's screens on island expansions and Frozen Temple to some extent when you wanted to retreat to your third location from your opponent's natural so your units actually went through the middle lane). My opinion is that if your algorithims are crap then you should stick with maps that have been thoroughly tested and are working properly, the best example of which seem to be Overgrowth-type maps (with terrain not being too yellow or to white). After that I launched Warcraft 3 to check how pathfinding worked there, and to my amusement, I saw that my units were able to get to basically any point on the map even though some of those maps had even more difficult architecture from the stanpoint of pathfinding...
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I really appreciate the effort made in the 3.8 patch to make mech a viable playstyle. Unfortunately we are not there yet but the good news is that only a few changes are needed to make mech ok.
1. Increase the cost of Swarm Hosts. They currently hard counter mech due their price. Swarm Hosts should be a harass unit, not a unit that you can mass cheaply to counter an entire play style.
2. Make Swarm Hosts light. This would make it possible to use hellions to chase Swarm Hosts, thus promoting aggressive mech instead of Turtle mech.
3. Increase Thor armour by 1. This means that Thors trade better vs Carriers which means that the mech player can attack Protoss in the midgame when the Carrier count is still low. Currently you are forced to sit back and turtle to BCs if Protoss go Carriers since BC is the only mech unit that can trade with Carriers with High Templar support.
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On February 01 2017 08:12 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2017 07:24 jpg06051992 wrote:
Oracle and Raven still desperately need a redesign, Oracle to do less damage but scale better outside of mass Oracle cheese and Raven's are just cancerous to play against, PDD being shorter but more powerful totally negates anything outside of a Viper pull and auto turrets are literally enough to drive me away from this game, I've already dealt with a different metagame shift that gravitated towards the mass Raven cloud and it makes SC2 go from an 8 or 9/10 game to a 2/10.
Redesign the Raven to provide utility and survivability to Terran end game, and give the Oracle something along these lines..
Oracle
- Remove bonus damage to light and increase range on Pulsar Beam by 1 or 2 so it does not instantly melt workers but at the same time can find sweet spots in static air defense like a Banshee
- Remove Revelation and give the Oracle innate detection
- Nerf the radius, time spent frozen, and mana cost of Stasis, so it functions more like Spider Mines being a spammable map control element
Raven
- Remove Auto Turret from the game along with Seeker Missile and replace them with good non damage for spell points abilities that let's Terran have more utility units outside of the Medivac
The rest of the changes are fine, Hydralisks are still not as beefy as they need to be and Widow Mines shouldn't be deleting Chargelot compositions just by existing. Smart man
makes observer not killable.
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First priority is fixing the massive fps drops/caps that the new patch induced (blizz at it again).
Then fixing the SH (not as a harass tool, but as a massable option that shuts down mech on its own).
Then fixing late game PvZ.
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so it began... i lost 3 tvp´s in a row on balance map, all going mass chargelot + archons, at that time i have some marine marauder medivac, but ghosts are far from beeing out... got rolled over just like i expected... we had the same situation with the widow mine at the beginning of hots were they also nerfed shield damage. shortly after that they reverted it back...
guess i need to got early liberators and hope they focus the archons and kite like dumb with the rest of my army...
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On February 06 2017 21:53 insitelol wrote:
1. Tempest.
A brief historical reference: it was initially introduced as anti-muta unit with aoe (which is obviously a bad design decision that leads to massing of a certain unit, liberator pre-nerf is a good example of why you don't want air units with ranged aoe attack in the game), then it was redesigned into anti-massive siege unit. A very arguable role, but still it somehow "worked" in HoTS as a "answer" to BL/SH/Terran Ghost/Viking late game. With the LoTV release Tempest was barely used, so blizzard decided to redesign it once more and failed. So it was reverted to an old version and (!) severly nerfed (?). That's even more of a mystery to me than the initial purpose of the unit. And by nerf I mean a 50% supply increase. NOONE uses tempest at all as it became a complete trash unit. Terrans laugh at you as a fleet of BC + a single raven annihilates your whole tempest army w/o a single loss. The math is simple here. They take 6 of your supply so having a tempest based comp is always worse than having same amount of carriers in ANY situation. Carriers insanely outdps tempests, have almost the same range, immune to pdd.
So, my question is. What is the justification of this unit to be present in the game? What role does it fulfill now? And seems to me that there is no answer to that. It obvious that tempest should just go (and should never be implemented in the first place).
Tempests also got a big damage nerf in the latter part of HotS, with their bonus vs massive being nerfed from +50 to +14. Blizzard wanted to change the unit from being a complete deterrent against massive air units to just being a reactive counter. The teleporting BC's of today would get wrecked by the old Tempest.
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EPT
