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yeah this WM change is going to be so bad and you will see Terrans get abused by SG nonstopp in pro matches, because theres no reason not to proxy SG terran now..
early game TvP is very stressful against high MMR Protoss, and its about to become worse without having any significant impact on the midgame or reasons why the matchup is actually difficult for protoss in the first place (need for splash midgame, medivac boosters), so yet again in 2017 we will see this matchup balanced around early game harass and defense and massive game winning advantages given one way or the other in less than 5 minutes of actual game play.
hard to get hyped about someone blindly building an ebay and turrets and winning a game for it
hard to get hyped about someone putting 4 marines in a bunker at the front and losing the game because they were there and not sitting in the mineral line
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Actually the widow mine patch is very much about helping protoss in the midgame. Right now the combination of mines/tanks makes adepts and zealots perfectly useless. Don't worry, they'll tweak numbers to make mines 1-shot oracles. Think beyond that.
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zerg too strong.
did you see nation wars? mass zerg players won lots of games.In the big tournament they always win too.
even tho they got nerf on their units, economy system stands for zerg. protoss and terran get rekt by cheep ling/bane.
terran still being ass in the late game. i want to see terrans winning in the late game.
considering TvP in the mid game, i think tank damage is more problematic than widowmine&liberator.
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i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit at all, its not predictable and take a ton of supply doing nothing vs robotics, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
widow mine splash/widow mines killing adepts == a non issue
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
How do you win
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On January 28 2017 20:05 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though.
My thoughts beyond that: chargelots will be hilariously terrifying.
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On January 28 2017 20:03 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame How do you win
rax fe rax rax and try your best, or reaper cuz its a cheesy terrible map into 111
i almost beat zest the other day, so im not totally retarded (and he won play straight up. no proxies, just robotics, observers, forge ups and blink)
u dont need to open mine drop, but u have to open mines vs the cheesy shit. vs a proper proxy oracle and chrono'd units i actually just have zero idea what protoss is doing and thats why you need mines.
this is my main point: "we cant afford to be in a position where theres no reason not to proxy SG vs terran and there are three different followups that each beat the correct responses to their counterparts"
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On January 28 2017 06:51 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play. Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go. Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker. Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen.
1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM:
1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash.
2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle.
3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
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On January 28 2017 06:18 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote:
In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote:
Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning? You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead. Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol
did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
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On January 28 2017 20:34 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 06:18 Lexender wrote:On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote:
In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote:
Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning? You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead. Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser. 3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
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On January 28 2017 20:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 20:05 Olli wrote:On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote:
i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though. My thoughts beyond that: chargelots will be hilariously terrifying.
Yeah since the wm buff chargelots have received a damage buff and a speed buff. I think mines need to be as strong as they are to keep chargelots in check.
The liberator nerf is pretty big though, I don't think T needs another nerf.
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On January 28 2017 20:31 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 06:51 Musicus wrote:On January 28 2017 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play. Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go. Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker. Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care. It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions. On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
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Without mines oracle harras is 100% risk free, you´re simply just incredibly bad if your oracle dies to marines or turrets.
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Without the splash bonus to shields, zealots become ridiculus powerful earlygame, to good together with adepts....
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On January 28 2017 20:57 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 20:31 egrimm wrote:On January 28 2017 06:51 Musicus wrote:On January 28 2017 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play. Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go. Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker. Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care. It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions. On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply. I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
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On January 28 2017 21:19 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 20:57 Foxxan wrote:On January 28 2017 20:31 egrimm wrote:On January 28 2017 06:51 Musicus wrote:On January 28 2017 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play. Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go. Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker. Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care. It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions. On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply. I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
You would also need more overlords to drop the same amount of hydras.
On January 28 2017 21:06 Zulu23 wrote:
Without the splash bonus to shields, zealots become ridiculus powerful earlygame, to good together with adepts....
I disagree with this: widowmines will no longer evaporate half of the P army, putting them at a tremendous disadvantage, it will still heavily soften up a lot of zealots so a tank or two will finish off big chunks of the army still.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On January 28 2017 22:45 reneg wrote:
I disagree with this: widowmines will no longer evaporate half of the P army, putting them at a tremendous disadvantage, it will still heavily soften up a lot of zealots so a tank or two will finish off big chunks of the army still.
Tanks are trash against chargelots because they close the gap so quickly, not just to the tanks but also to your other units, they make tanks blow up bio too much.
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I don't understand why I never "clean entire mineral lines" when I open Oracle.. usually a single turret is enough to buy time for the marInes to come back and repel the Oracle. I kill usually 3-6 workers, but for the investment of SG+oracle that does not seem so dramatic or black and white as you make it seem.
I mean, it's usually more.game ending a wm drop that get a lucky shot 
Maybe I'm just very bad
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I really don't know how I feel about the TvP changes... On one hand, when I watch pro games, it's true that top terrans do seems really strong against P... On the other hand, I'm currently sitting atop of my 20% winrate in TvP (dia1 EU), so yeah.
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EPT
