On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
Ye i know all of this.. All i said is that hydras dps are like marines...
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
Ye i know all of this.. All i said is that hydras dps are like marines...
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
On January 28 2017 19:49 Olli wrote: Actually the widow mine patch is very much about helping protoss in the midgame. Right now the combination of mines/tanks makes adepts and zealots perfectly useless. Don't worry, they'll tweak numbers to make mines 1-shot oracles. Think beyond that.
You have to worry every time the balance team propose a stupid patch. Because sometimes it goes live (range hydra, 5mineral interceptor, widow mine nerf in HotS ...)
Well, what about reducing oracle speed/acceleration in counter part of widow mine nerf so that it can be killable with stim marins and that it doesn't end in an infinite free reveled terran army in the mid game ?
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
i feel like for the amount of defense we saw from classic (absolutely none, he didnt even notice them), that was an appropriate amount of probe kills haha
im pretty sure the collosus didnt die in the fight. classic won cuz hes just straight up better than alive and had better upgrades + economy
On January 28 2017 22:55 VHbb wrote: I don't understand why I never "clean entire mineral lines" when I open Oracle.. usually a single turret is enough to buy time for the marInes to come back and repel the Oracle. I kill usually 3-6 workers, but for the investment of SG+oracle that does not seem so dramatic or black and white as you make it seem. I mean, it's usually more.game ending a wm drop that get a lucky shot Maybe I'm just very bad
try proxying the stargate and not building mothership core/stalker/wg research before u plant SG, just an adept. i lose to that all day even when i see it as it is constructing, its just a solid pressure and 3 nexus is typical followup
On January 29 2017 00:39 SSMMA wrote: Well, what about reducing oracle speed/acceleration in counter part of widow mine nerf so that it can be killable with stim marins and that it doesn't end in an infinite free reveled terran army in the mid game ?
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
i feel like for the amount of defense we saw from classic (absolutely none, he didnt even notice them), that was an appropriate amount of probe kills haha
im pretty sure the collosus didnt die in the fight. classic won cuz hes just straight up better than alive and had better upgrades + economy
Hahaha, To be fair, both classic & alive were not on top of their games. Classic with weak workers' line defense & alive not burrowing mines under libs, overproducing vikings & too little medivacs to heal overstim bio. If there were 1 or 2 mines under the libs, no way in hell classic's mass chargelots archons composition would work. They will just melt to mines. If classic continues with this form, he will be swept by better terrans or zergs. But that's a moot point.
To wipe off whole mineral line within 5sec is just appalling. That's the issue! If the same WM cannot wipe out scv & drones like it did to probes, why should it remain so?
A Hydra HP buff and a lib nerf?! Blizzard sure does love to tug on my heartstrings. And to all you P who voted no - come on...I can't believe the poll is in favor of no...I guess carriers will just continue to rule the day if this doesn't go through . Hydras need love...Stop fighting it!
I ended up doing a short video talking about TvP in relation to the balance changes from this community feedback, I hope TL is ok with the youtube embed.
Finally some real changes, keep the good work blizz and think about demote league, everyone is diamond or master.. And no way.. I remember when diamond was something to be proud..
Almost no pro gamer uses mech regularly in TvZ in tournament matches.
The reason for this is that Swam Hosts hard counter mech. Mech can not counter Swarm Hosts until late game when you have lots of Hellbats with blue flame protecting your army.
The problem is the Swarm Hosts price. The cheap price means that you can always hit a timing before the mech player has the tools to deal with Swarm Hosts. The mech player can not blindly invest in mass hellbats early game since you will need tanks and thors in order to survive against normal Zerg compositions. This means that when the Zerg player goes for early Swarm Hosts (for instance fast muta followed by Swarm Hosts) the mech player can never have the army to combat the Swarm Hosts without losing expansive gas units without any resource loss for the Zerg player. The game then quickly spirals out of control for the mech player.
The only solution to this is to increase the cost of Swarm Hosts to something more reasonable.
On January 29 2017 19:45 MockHamill wrote: Almost no pro gamer uses mech regularly in TvZ in tournament matches.
The reason for this is that Swam Hosts hard counter mech. Mech can not counter Swarm Hosts until late game when you have lots of Hellbats with blue flame protecting your army.
The problem is the Swarm Hosts price. The cheap price means that you can always hit a timing before the mech player has the tools to deal with Swarm Hosts. The mech player can not blindly invest in mass hellbats early game since you will need tanks and thors in order to survive against normal Zerg compositions. This means that when the Zerg player goes for early Swarm Hosts (for instance fast muta followed by Swarm Hosts) the mech player can never have the army to combat the Swarm Hosts without losing expansive gas units without any resource loss for the Zerg player. The game then quickly spirals out of control for the mech player.
The only solution to this is to increase the cost of Swarm Hosts to something more reasonable.
Mech has nothing to catch SHs with. You can't invest into a large number of banshees, hellions do nothing to them and cyclones they just run away from. If Swarm Hosts were light, then we could have cat and mouse games where hellions would chase them around the map. That would actually be fun, but the balance team simply doesn't want mech to be viable.
They don't even mention mech in their ridiculous updates.
SC2's dev team is so out of touch. A mine nerf would be such a wrong move in the current situation. I never understood why they even added the liberator.
If they would've kept the marauder like in hots, terran would probably still be good, but protoss could also fight terran better.
They shifted terrans strength into liberators ---> what counters liberators ? ---> Stalker (later SG tech, but 2base pushes are the real issue here)
So Let's say they never added the liberator and bio would simply be better like back in the days. Sure, 2base pushes would still be strong, but now protoss would've way more counter potential because every unit of them can attack bio.
You can go for immortals, collosi,... what ever. But liberators can only get countered by stalkers and stalkers obviously get wrecked by tanks and mines. That's why those 2base pushes are so strong right now.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Funny how blizz spent 2 months speaking about making mech viable but we don't hear from them now that it's even worse than before the patch. And way worse btw, mech was getting quite common vZ.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Don't say this as a knock to mech players, if anything this is yet another knock at David Kim and the team and their seemingly, "blind leading the blind leading the dumb" policy of balance patches, and by that I mean they look like they hardly even play their own game.
Redesign Oracle to not end games, redesign the Swarm Host to counter mass air end game armies, it's really not that fucking hard, if your job is to sit there and tune the game and discuss the game I don't see how these things cannot be tossed up? Or is it merely another case of, "I'm David Kim, I'm grandfathered into this job like a bad NFL coach that wont get fired, if you want Brood War go play it".
EPT
. Hydras need love...Stop fighting it!
