Here’s the community update on behalf of the SC II balance team: Next Patch Based on the feedback that we have been hearing, it sounds like the Liberator change will be a good one. Early next week, we will be patching the live game to change the Liberators Concord Cannon base damage from 85 to 75.
Map Bug Fixes We made some bug fixes to certain maps which will go live early next week, at the same time as the Liberator change.
Cactus Valley LE • Units can now reach and defend against enemy Liberators at base locations.
Abyssal Reef LE • Doodads were removed near certain ramps to prevent confusion and clipping issues. • Map description was updated.
Tropic Shores • Creep will now spread and behave properly at base locations.
Refinery XJ-17 • Smoke stack heights were updated on the map.
Testing Matchmaking We will also be testing out a few other changes. These will be placed in the Testing Matchmaking queue as they are more experimental.
Widow Mine +shield impact damage changed from +35 to +20 and +shield splash damage changed from +40 to +25.
Hydralisk health changed from 80 to 90.
Carrier Interceptor cost changed from 10 to 15.
Like all public tests, these numbers, and the changes themselves, are not final and will be subject to debate over the course of testing. We are looking to set up the testing matchmaking queue early next week as well. Thank you for your continued support, and let’s start discussing and testing the impact of these new changes!
Those carrier nerfs are becoming the new bunker changes.
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same, which was the goal right? Right? A simple removal of the bonus to splash vs shields while keeping the 125+35 single target would make more sense imo.
A popular suggestion is to leave the single target damage of Widowmines at 160, so an Oracle as well as Zealots, Adepts and Stalkers would still die in one shot. Only decrease the splash shield damage instead (exact value would have to be tested), which can be compensated by the new tanks defensively. See aLive vs MyungSiK .
Poll: Leave + shield impact dmg at 35, only reduce + shield splash dmg.
Good (232)
63%
Bad (97)
26%
Neutral (39)
11%
368 total votes
Your vote: Leave + shield impact dmg at 35, only reduce + shield splash dmg.
I still would favor an overhaul of Zerg AA among other massive changes, but in terms of keeping it realistic I at least like that the hydra is not getting swept under the rug.
Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
On January 28 2017 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote: So, mines wont kill an oracle, the new cyclone tickles the oracle. 1 base all ins will be harder to hold without the mine as well. Nice times ahead.
It takes 5 marines to kill an Oracle. You act like they have 200 health and are invisible.
On January 28 2017 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote: So, mines wont kill an oracle, the new cyclone tickles the oracle. 1 base all ins will be harder to hold without the mine as well. Nice times ahead.
They should just also increase mothership core vision to 14, reduce the blink cooldown and be done with it
A simple removal of the bonus to splash vs shields while keeping the 125+35 single target would make more sense imo.
Exactly the proposed changes will make it not 1 shot Zealots, Adepts, Stalkers and Oracles. This is just broken x) also the other changes suck as well.
On January 28 2017 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote: So, mines wont kill an oracle, the new cyclone tickles the oracle. 1 base all ins will be harder to hold without the mine as well. Nice times ahead.
It takes 5 marines to kill an Oracle. You act like they have 200 health and are invisible.
The problem here is that the intent was to nerf mines vs gate units. This is a nerf to terran early game with 1-2 WM, but it barely changes anything to the mid-lategame
On January 28 2017 04:43 Musicus wrote: I think they should leave the single target widow mine damage as it is and instead only reduce the + shield splash damage.
Or they could reduce Oracle health to compensate, would even help zergs .
Honestly, I don't see it as that outlandish to consider removing pulsar beam entirely from the game. It's one of the most uninspired abilities there is.
Maybe reduce the oracles cost and balance around stasis ward instead so it becomes a non-lethal harassment/support unit as was originally intended. Stasis ward was one of the better ideas added to LotV imo. It adds more strategy and uncertainty in the midst of army engagements.
Remove Oracle attack already! Terran openers HAVE to account for it (and thus limits our builds), and now since Widow Mines don't one shot them, it's even worse.
There is no reason a unit like Oracle should have an anti-worker attack when they can already do so many other great things that don't involve just killing players outright like vision and Stasis.
On January 28 2017 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote: So, mines wont kill an oracle, the new cyclone tickles the oracle. 1 base all ins will be harder to hold without the mine as well. Nice times ahead.
It takes 5 marines to kill an Oracle. You act like they have 200 health and are invisible.
A widow mine kills an oracle. A group of marines just keep it away from your mineral line for a bit.
Carrier change is a good one, but buffing hydras is not. Suddenly, toss will be struggling to defend hydra timings - with ground army. I guess you'll have to 'blindly' tech to storm...
Widow mine change is a move in the right direction, I'm not sure about values yet.
Nerf the oracle's health to compensate, or remove the pulsar beam. Few people want a return to the Oracle bullshit that used to happen. And now my builds are even more constrained by the existance of the Oracle.
A popular suggestion is to leave the single target of Widowmines damage at 160, so an Oracle as well as Zealots, Adepts and Stalkers would still die in one shot. Only decrease the splash shield damage instead (exact value would have to be tested), which can be compensated by the new tanks defensively. See aLive vs MyungSiK .
Poll: Leave + shield impact dmg at 35, only reduce + shield splash dmg.
Good (232)
63%
Bad (97)
26%
Neutral (39)
11%
368 total votes
Your vote: Leave + shield impact dmg at 35, only reduce + shield splash dmg.
Echoing everyone else here, reducing the +shields on the splash is the way to go. The impact should be able to one shot things, that's its job. I'm a protoss player and I don't mind being punished if i fuck up my oracle micro.
What I do care about is 4 widow mines completely preventing my gateway units from doing anything, and I think the splash is the big problem there. Be it reducing the splash radius or removing the shield damage, something needs to be tweaked.
Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
On January 28 2017 05:37 LHK wrote: Echoing everyone else here, reducing the +shields on the splash is the way to go. The impact should be able to one shot things, that's its job. I'm a protoss player and I don't mind being punished if i fuck up my oracle micro.
What I do care about is 4 widow mines completely preventing my gateway units from doing anything, and I think the splash is the big problem there. Be it reducing the splash radius or removing the shield damage, something needs to be tweaked.
Do you honestly think the proposed nerf would change that? They are not talking about removing splash, just toning it down by 15. 15, Carl! + Shield damage should go as the ugliest mechanic in the game with pulsar beam dmg reduced by lets say 35%. Im sick of these pathetic terran whiners crying about 0ne baEs al1iNs. I got some advise for you guys. Build some libs and tanks and shift que them somewhere on the map then talk about 1 baes alins.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
On January 28 2017 05:37 LHK wrote: Echoing everyone else here, reducing the +shields on the splash is the way to go. The impact should be able to one shot things, that's its job. I'm a protoss player and I don't mind being punished if i fuck up my oracle micro.
What I do care about is 4 widow mines completely preventing my gateway units from doing anything, and I think the splash is the big problem there. Be it reducing the splash radius or removing the shield damage, something needs to be tweaked.
Do you honestly think the proposed nerf would change that? They are not talking about removing splash, just toning it down by 15. 15, Carl! + Shield damage should go as the ugliest mechanic in the game with pulsar beam dmg reduced by lets say 35%. Im sick of these pathetic terran whiners crying about 0ne baEs al1iNs. I got some advise for you guys. Build some libs and tanks and shift que them somewhere on the map then talk about 1 baes alins.
Well, in the latter part of my post I said i'd prefer it to be removed, at least from the splash. I think +shield damage is the worst thing in the game, it's stupid and unnecessary. Really, dropping it by 15 probably won't change much. I just want something done because I'm absolutely sick of playing against mines lol. It's not fun at all. I'm not claiming to know what the solution is but tweaking/removing the shield damage is a good place to look.
Hm... I might even try coming back if these changes go through. Surely a needed nerf for Liberator, WM personally I think it's good as well. Neutral on hydra buff and agree with nerf to Carriers. What is wrong, I read the Community Feedback and I'm not even angry? Dark magic.
why does a widow mine need to one shot anything? always seemed broken to me that it 1 shots a unit 3 times its cost. its fine to nerf carriers but i think that carrier is what keeps pvz winrate up. toss seems to have serious issues trading on the ground
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
nope pretty sure its carriers. yeah the win rate is less then 50% with broken carriers logically what should happens when u nerf protoss and buff zerg. hmmm i think protoss will become even stronger... ....
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same
widow mines in pvt don't interact with gateway units like that. the number of widow mine shots to kill a particular gateway unit doesn't matter that much in a lot of fights. the widow mine shots soften up the army. each mine that hits the protoss army is like a psionic storm. the marines and marauders have range and fast movement speed and a high rate of fire so their damage is consistent and reliable. marine marauder vs gateway units can snowball quickly in favor of the terran. as soon as the terran judges that they have enough dps to stand and fight, they mow everything down. the total amount of damage the widow mines are doing, spread across the whole protoss army, regardless of whether they're getting killing blows or not, is really important in these fights. each mine that goes off, reducing the total hp pool of the whole protoss army, brings the terran closer to having control of the fight and letting them adjust what kind of moves they make (ie they can stand and fight and chase)
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same
widow mines in pvt don't interact with gateway units like that. the number of widow mine shots to kill a particular gateway unit doesn't matter that much in a lot of fights. the widow mine shots soften up the army. each mine that hits the protoss army is like a psionic storm. the marines and marauders have range and fast movement speed and such a high rate of fire so their damage is consistent and reliable. marine marauder vs gateway units can snowball quickly in favor of the terran. as soon as the terran judges that they have enough dps to stand and fight, they mow everything down. the total amount of damage the widow mines are doing, spread across the whole protoss army, regardless of whether they're getting killing blows or not, is really important in these fights.
True but then does removing the bonus to splash still makes sense to you? Or do you prefer blizzards approach?
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
I dont give a shit about TvZ. But im 100% sure there is another way to help zerg deal with mech or w/e. Dont even think thats a problem tbh. Why do these buffs always results in disaster for protoss? Hydra is already a core unit for zerg in pvz. Along with banelings. 2 most commonly used units in the MU. Why do they keep buffing them w/o compensating protoss? Carrier will be nerfed and this will be the end of skytoss and we are left with nerfed colosi, unusable disruptor against buffed banes/hydras, not even mentioning that zerg got ravager to counter FF (and more), lurker, new SH in LotV while Protoss got..... adepts (an ok harass unit recently severly nerfed).
On January 28 2017 05:32 Boggyb wrote: Someone on the design and balance team really, really loves hydralisks.
I mean, ling/bling/ravager running into archons is honestly getting boring after over a year.
I don't think their change is good, but something should be done.
They said they wanted to redesign the Hydra and that just has not happened yet.
A redesign is fine, but a buff isn't a redesign. Hydras, like ravagers, are already strong if they have something tanking for them. This would just make them stronger without and a lot more resilient against storm.
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same
widow mines in pvt don't interact with gateway units like that. the number of widow mine shots to kill a particular gateway unit doesn't matter that much in a lot of fights. the widow mine shots soften up the army. each mine that hits the protoss army is like a psionic storm. the marines and marauders have range and fast movement speed and a high rate of fire so their damage is consistent and reliable. marine marauder vs gateway units can snowball quickly in favor of the terran. as soon as the terran judges that they have enough dps to stand and fight, they mow everything down. the total amount of damage the widow mines are doing, spread across the whole protoss army, regardless of whether they're getting killing blows or not, is really important in these fights. each mine that goes off, reducing the total hp pool of the whole protoss army, brings the terran closer to having control of the fight and letting them adjust what kind of moves they make (ie they can stand and fight and chase)
this is really important to understand and thanks for writing it out. I just worry that it's not enough, that terran will end up just making 2 or 3 more mines to compensate. They're so cheap, there's no reason not to make them in TvP right now and very little risk of being punished if you lose them.
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same
widow mines in pvt don't interact with gateway units like that. the number of widow mine shots to kill a particular gateway unit doesn't matter that much in a lot of fights. the widow mine shots soften up the army. each mine that hits the protoss army is like a psionic storm. the marines and marauders have range and fast movement speed and such a high rate of fire so their damage is consistent and reliable. marine marauder vs gateway units can snowball quickly in favor of the terran. as soon as the terran judges that they have enough dps to stand and fight, they mow everything down. the total amount of damage the widow mines are doing, spread across the whole protoss army, regardless of whether they're getting killing blows or not, is really important in these fights.
True but then does removing the bonus to splash still makes sense to you? Or do you prefer blizzards approach?
my opinion is that they should lower the splash damage and keep the primary target damage high enough to 1 shot an oracle. doing both at once seems extreme. but maybe they prefer to test both at once. making this change on the test map doesn't necessarily mean that they think it's most likely the correct solution. it just means they think it'll yield the most useful test results atm.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
I just feel like all this Hydra fuzz is only happening due to blizzard feeling some kind of guilt for range buff revert. Now they feel like they are obliged to compensate that. Noone remembers why you even decided to buff hydras in the first place, guys!!! FORGET IT already. And revert baneling HP buff. NOONE fcking needs that but it makes pvz even harder.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
yeah but he does it at low gm level for a reason...do you ever see mass ravens in pro games? Why would that hydra buff ever be for skyterran >>
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
yeah but he does it at low gm level for a reason...do you ever see mass ravens in pro games? Why would that hydra buff ever be for skyterran >>
I mean, I do watch TY's stream...
The hydra buff doesn't do anything against ravens.
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
Nah u got it all wrong, these are terrans. They spam marines through reactors, call that skill and dont bother protecting their mineral lines.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
yeah but he does it at low gm level for a reason...do you ever see mass ravens in pro games? Why would that hydra buff ever be for skyterran >>
I mean, I do watch TY's stream...
The hydra buff doesn't do anything against ravens.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
yeah but he does it at low gm level for a reason...do you ever see mass ravens in pro games? Why would that hydra buff ever be for skyterran >>
I mean, I do watch TY's stream...
The hydra buff doesn't do anything against ravens.
he uses mass raven in tvz? :p
Out of all the high level Korean players who stream he's definitely the biggest troll and he's definitely made the most ravens and battlecruisers.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
Well, in this specific case avilo should know. Few people turtle to ravens as much as he does.
Ravens are pretty stupid though to be perfectly honest. Starting with the fact that auto turrets feel like they one-shot everything.
yeah but he does it at low gm level for a reason...do you ever see mass ravens in pro games? Why would that hydra buff ever be for skyterran >>
I mean, I do watch TY's stream...
The hydra buff doesn't do anything against ravens.
he uses mass raven in tvz? :p
Out of all the high level Korean players who stream he's definitely the biggest troll and he's definitely made the most ravens and battlecruisers.
But i'm too lazy to setup vlc to watch afreeca -_-
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
Nah u got it all wrong, these are terrans. They spam marines through reactors, call that skill and dont bother protecting their mineral lines.
I feel like you should follow the advice from your sig before mods decide you crossed the line
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
shortly after LotV came out Avilo went on this rant about how LotV Terran resulted in far too many all-air compositions by mid-late and late game. I had a similar experience. The core complaint Avilo had ... i basically agreed. Avilo then went on screaming for super granular changes he demanded in many, many rants since then.
I kept my requests general because i don't think my level of play justifies ultra-specific instruction. Basically, I said , "weaken terran Air". "Strengthen Terran Ground" and if possible strengthen the Siege Tank.
In the past year i've basically received what i asked for. Its fascinating that Avilo and I shared a similar game play experience and I'm happy with how Blizzard has changed Terran while Avilo is still throwing Headsets against his wall and assassinating the character of Blizzard employees.
there are a few things since LotV has come out that has not happened. Like the idea of Medivac Pickups on Sieged up Tanks and Thors not being Boostable. I realize there is a giant community out there with substantial cultural//sociology differences so I don't smash my bunk bed to pieces when some of my requests go unanswered.
If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
On January 28 2017 06:19 Ferisii wrote: ... What have they done to my Cactus!? T_T
I figure to remove that liberator spot they mostly have 2 options - remove the cliffs behind the bases and make the area pathable or move the mineral line forward.
If my maths are correct the number of mines required to one shot several adepts/zealots/stalkers actually won't change, so this is definitely a big nerf vs oracles and single targets, but the interaction vs many gateway units remains the same
widow mines in pvt don't interact with gateway units like that. the number of widow mine shots to kill a particular gateway unit doesn't matter that much in a lot of fights. the widow mine shots soften up the army. each mine that hits the protoss army is like a psionic storm. the marines and marauders have range and fast movement speed and a high rate of fire so their damage is consistent and reliable. marine marauder vs gateway units can snowball quickly in favor of the terran. as soon as the terran judges that they have enough dps to stand and fight, they mow everything down. the total amount of damage the widow mines are doing, spread across the whole protoss army, regardless of whether they're getting killing blows or not, is really important in these fights. each mine that goes off, reducing the total hp pool of the whole protoss army, brings the terran closer to having control of the fight and letting them adjust what kind of moves they make (ie they can stand and fight and chase)
this is really important to understand and thanks for writing it out. I just worry that it's not enough, that terran will end up just making 2 or 3 more mines to compensate. They're so cheap, there's no reason not to make them in TvP right now and very little risk of being punished if you lose them.
well i think you cannot begin to hypothesize the effects of the widow mine change without having some imagination about the the liberator change. the liberator change will encourage protoss to do builds that would not normally trigger a terran to produce many mines. specifically, i think we'll colossus more often since protoss will become less afraid to invest so much gas into something that doesn't deal with liberators at all. terran can open with mines for harass and early game, but as colossus come out, they'd definitely rather stop mine production completely rather than make a few extra.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
shortly after LotV came out Avilo went on this rant about how LotV Terran resulted in far too many air wars. I had a similar experience. The core complaint Avilo had ... i basically agreed. Avilo then went on screaming for super granular changes he demanded in many, many rants since then.
I kept my requests general because i don't think my level of play justifies ultra-specific instruction. Basically, I said , "weaken terran Air". "Strengthen Terran Ground" and if possible strengthen the Siege Tank.
In the past year i've basically received what i asked for. Its fascinating that Avilo and I shared a similar game play experience and I'm happy with how Blizzard has changed Terran while Avilo is still throwing Headsets against his wall and assassinating the character of Blizzard employees.
there are a few things since LotV has come out that has not happened. Like the idea of Medivac Pickups on Sieged up Tanks and Thors not being Boostable. I realize there is a giant community out there with substantial cultural sociology differences so I don't smash my bunk bed to pieces when some of my requests go unanswered.
Avilo is capable of giving objective feedback sometimes for sure, but theres a ton of people who do that too, without having such a stupid attitude
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
We'll just counter you with a 2-base thor play.
Or 1 liberator :D
No it has to be thor, he hardcounters the phoenicians.
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
We'll just counter you with a 2-base thor play.
Or 1 liberator :D
lol I really want to see someone trying to stop oracles with liberators, all the minerals lines would be death and the oracles would still wont have taken any hull damage.
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
We'll just counter you with a 2-base thor play.
Or 1 liberator :D
lol I really want to see someone trying to stop oracles with liberators, all the minerals lines would be death and the oracles would still wont have taken any hull damage.
it was a joke about Drogo constantly throwing games by blinking into lib zones
This is insane. i havent stated it enough. nercio rapes the best korean terrans. why buff zerg n nerf terran? Mine is probably the only good choice vs all ins + oracle....
I still do not agree with a straight away nerf of the Liberator. The Problem imho is not the damage output of a single Liberator it is more an issue of how many Units a pack of Liberator kills in a fight.
I agree that the Liberator is maybe too strong against stalkers in a Gateway based Army.
But everytime Liberators see a pack of hydras they evaporate. My conclusion would be that if the damage of Liberators is reduced there shall be added something else that Improves the surviveability.
To kill a pack of stalkers or hydras, Liberators need much more time if they need another shot, leading to a huge increase in damage output of stalkers. Liberators shall get compensated for this. I argue for balance on a fight centric view rather than on straight damage figures. With less damage and more health the pace of the Fight for both Players might be slowed down and making it ultimately more Micro Oriented and less sensitive for Minor balance issues, and thus making the game more fun to play and to watch
I think the Hydra buff is a good thing. Hydras are a C-Tier unit which people freaked out about because of the range buff, which was strong, but once it got removed they became a bad unit again. The widowmine change on top of the liberator change could actually flip TvP to being bad for terran in lower levels.
On January 28 2017 05:40 insitelol wrote: Right, nerf carrier and buff hydra (i guess banelings need another HP buff too). Its unfair that protoss PvZ winrate is slightly higher than PvTs. To the ground, baby!!!
Hydra buff is more for dealing with sky Terran/mass raven than Carriers, and PvZ is basically 50/50, maybe 1% in favor of Z.
Uhm... nobody plays "skyterran/mass raven"
Lots of people, including Avilo of all people, have said that mass Raven is OP.
Avilo being the main source of reliable feedback, gotcha
shortly after LotV came out Avilo went on this rant about how LotV Terran resulted in far too many air wars. I had a similar experience. The core complaint Avilo had ... i basically agreed. Avilo then went on screaming for super granular changes he demanded in many, many rants since then.
I kept my requests general because i don't think my level of play justifies ultra-specific instruction. Basically, I said , "weaken terran Air". "Strengthen Terran Ground" and if possible strengthen the Siege Tank.
In the past year i've basically received what i asked for. Its fascinating that Avilo and I shared a similar game play experience and I'm happy with how Blizzard has changed Terran while Avilo is still throwing Headsets against his wall and assassinating the character of Blizzard employees.
there are a few things since LotV has come out that has not happened. Like the idea of Medivac Pickups on Sieged up Tanks and Thors not being Boostable. I realize there is a giant community out there with substantial cultural sociology differences so I don't smash my bunk bed to pieces when some of my requests go unanswered.
Avilo is capable of giving objective feedback sometimes for sure, but theres a ton of people who do that too, without having such a stupid attitude
because he is north american and jumped from Red Alert 3 to SC2 ( like me ) i prolly listen to the guy more than i should.
Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
I think by now it should be clear that blizzard doesn't want mech.
For years he's now promising to make mech viable, but the few times he actually buffs a mech unit he buffs a mech counter at the same time. I feel like he's just fooling the community because he doesn't want to make mech viable but fears the outrage if he outright says it so he just makes some half-assed changes sometimes to make it appear like he wants to make mech viable.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
however, its changed i think the ideal is for a 50/50 split between Mech and Bio play. or maybe 33/33/33 between mixed-bio-mech.
We just had an entire expansion of adept spam so why are we trying to go back there?
Oracles are also very close to being too good so removing one of the best counters seems a bit odd considering the cyclone was nerfed into the ground when it comes to anti air capabilities. Keep in mind that the prenerf version still lost you 6 scvs to suicide focus fire.
Arguments that a mine can insta kill a unit worth more than its cost seems odd. Units in sc2 are hardly based off their potential to kill other units per cost in isolation. A single templar can rip 30 supply out of the sky given the right circumstances if you want to talk ridiculous numbers on efficiency.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
Whatever we will just do ebay first every game...that will also make it possible to put a PF in the natural.
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
Whatever we will just do ebay first every game...that will also make it possible to put a PF in the natural.
You need a stupid amount of turrets to fend off oracles.
that a widow mine can kill instant an oracle was anyway a joke, that nerf is okay, now you need a widow mine and a marine. its ok i think. but its not anmyore instant dead
If widowmines get compensated with a real invisibilty I won't mind the splash damage nerf. I always feel like they are much to easyto avoid, due to the visibilty on the ground textures and the activation animation.....
On January 28 2017 06:56 NutriaKaiN wrote: that a widow mine can kill instant an oracle was anyway a joke, that nerf is okay, now you need a widow mine and a marine. its ok i think. but its not anmyore instant dead
You need 2 actually, at wich point you may as well just defend with only marines, but considering TvP is all about massing marines in the early game 1-1-1 builds become totally unviable.
On January 28 2017 06:56 NutriaKaiN wrote: that a widow mine can kill instant an oracle was anyway a joke, that nerf is okay, now you need a widow mine and a marine. its ok i think. but its not anmyore instant dead
Why? You can just not fly your oracles over mines they don´t move.
The best thing is that now we have Testing Matchmaking and hopefully there will be more testing of bigger changes.
To mine/liberator change I don't have a strong opinion, but it seems that the liberator change isn't perfect and mine should one shot oracle as long as cyclone isn't a good counter.
The hydra change is good.
Carrier change is ok, but they will be still broken, just harder to get. That's all you can do with changing the price of interceptors anyway. The price mainly changes how difficult is to get to mass carrier which will be still broken. Higher price -> more risky more turtling, lower price -> less risky and more broken. If they want more fun unit they have to change different things. If you asked what's the price of interceptor that will result in the best game possible? The answer is high enough so noone will make carriers, which is sad.
On January 28 2017 05:32 Boggyb wrote: Someone on the design and balance team really, really loves hydralisks.
If by love, you mean might care about making them useful... I'd hope so
Edit: I'd love to hear why people are against the fairly modest hydra health buff. Besides mech (which I agree is a concern), I think it's only a marginal improvement vs. bio, protoss writ large, and obviously in ZvZ it makes a difference, but not a dramatic one.
Edit2:
On January 28 2017 06:59 Zulu23 wrote: If widowmines get compensated with a real invisibilty I won't mind the splash damage nerf. I always feel like they are much to easyto avoid, due to the visibilty on the ground textures and the activation animation.....
This week we've had Zest 3-0 ByuN, Stats 2-1 ByuN, Trap 2-0 Maru and Patience going 5-6 against Innovation. It seems these Protoss players are figuring it out.
Seems unecessary to nerf Liberators. Let the players figure it out, let the game evolve so we get to see something new.
I'm sad to hear that the liberator change goes live. I really like the positional play they bring to TvP. Some games are memorable, like the recent GSL R032 games from Stats vs Ryung and Byun. There is no doubt they will be less used now. The WM nerf should have gone live instead. And not the one Blizzard is suggesting, but the other: no single-target change, nerf AoE vs shields even more. The HP buff for hydras should also go live, hydras need some love... but combined with a slight off-creep speed nerf. This would not affect ZvT too much, because bio is way faster and mech is way slower anyway, but would make hydras more vulnerable vs splash in ZvP, compensating for the HP buff. The hydra HP buff would make the carrier nerf unneeded.
On January 28 2017 05:32 Boggyb wrote: Someone on the design and balance team really, really loves hydralisks.
If by love, you mean might care about making them useful... I'd hope so
Edit: I'd love to hear why people are against the fairly modest hydra health buff. Besides mech (which I agree is a concern), I think it's only a marginal improvement vs. bio, protoss writ large, and obviously in ZvZ it makes a difference, but not a dramatic one.
Edit2: On January 28 2017 06:59 Zulu23 wrote: If widowmines get compensated with a real invisibilty I won't mind the splash damage nerf. I always feel like they are much to easyto avoid, due to the visibilty on the ground textures and the activation animation.....
wtf, this is laughably broken.
Why should this be broken, while zerg burrow is almost totally invisible?
Liberators+mines are needed to deal with adepts, and if the liberator change goes through both its pretty much a 33-50% nerf to liberators with 3 shots instead of 2, not to mention the interaction with stalkers. Even with the current mines it would be hard to deal with. How is a mine nerf even being considered? Do they want mass adept every game? (again)
On January 28 2017 04:51 Seeker wrote: Nerf widow mine? Okay, fine. But nerf the oracle too. Otherwise, terran is screwed... Give Cyclone AA a buff please...
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Yeah, D.Kim said a long time ago that things like worker harass are some of the coolest thing to watch.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
bring back Browder, at least his fetish was innocuous
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Blizzard just treats the game like the WWE and value entertainment over good design, fun gameplay, and balance.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough
And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Yes, for almost it's entire life Blizzard has slowly made workers easier and easier to kill. It's their idea of exciting gameplay
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Yes, for almost it's entire life Blizzard has slowly made workers easier and easier to kill. It's their idea of exciting gameplay
nice sweeping overgeneralization. Blue Flame went from +15 to +5 after Boxer's team exploited it for all it was worth.
- Increase range of Pulsar beam by 1 or 2 but drastically nerf the damage it does to light units, make it more akin to a Banshee where it can still find worker kills with good micro even in the presence of static defense but the game won't end outright if the opponent is caught with their pants down, right now the relationship the Oracle has with workers is very linear and bad.
- Remove Revelation and make the Oracle a detector unit by default so there is some type of detection from Stargate
- Change Stasis Ward to have smaller radius, cost less energy, reduce the duration and allow units to be targeted while frozen, this will encourage constantly utilizing the energy of the Oracle to be dropping wards for map control and the opponent will have to field detection, but individually they will be better utilized to stop counter attacks and run byes.
I know this will never happen but I believe that these changes would make Terrans hate the Oracle a bit less (stop complaining about mine nerfs and such) while raising the skill cap of the unit and simultaneously ending it's ability to just win the game if unscouted. All of the other changes seem nice and well warranted, if Hydralisks are overpowered then buff the Colossus.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Yes, for almost it's entire life Blizzard has slowly made workers easier and easier to kill. It's their idea of exciting gameplay
nice sweeping overgeneralization. Blue Flame went from +15 to +5 after Boxer's team exploited it for all it was worth.
On January 28 2017 04:34 Elentos wrote: Welp, there were 3 pro players on Wardi's Natural Expansion talk show this last week. 2 of them Protoss players. Not one of them thought the liberator nerf was a good idea. And mines not one-shotting oracles is just sad.
Yeah feels like 80 damage on libs + mine nerf would have been enough And oracles are gonna be so annoying, i'd rather mines keeping 125+35 single target damage and remove the bonus to shield for splash.
I can't wait for the sickest new micro trick where you purposely fly the oracle over the mine in the mineral line, drag the splash onto the SCV's and one-shot 10 of them with the oracle.
Does someone at Blizzard have some unnatural fetish to watching workers die?
Yes, for almost it's entire life Blizzard has slowly made workers easier and easier to kill. It's their idea of exciting gameplay
nice sweeping overgeneralization. Blue Flame went from +15 to +5 after Boxer's team exploited it for all it was worth.
There is a big difference between building a few hellions which somehow need to get into the enemy base and building an oracle/a liberator/doing a baneling drop early on
On January 28 2017 10:13 DinoMight wrote: This is so dumb. Polls show everyone against all he Protoss favored changes DESPITE Protoss getting hosed in the matchup. Obviously something's gotta give. What will it be?
these polls only access a tiny fraction of SC2 players.
Overall I think the balance changes are heading towards the right direction! Kudos to the development team for makin an effrot to fix the current state of the game so proactively! Thanks for maing this game, great again ! GGWP!
The problem in TvP is that mines under liberation zones are too strong and protoss does not have any good counters except for colossus or tempest.. and if you blink in the zones the stalkers will get melted by the mines..
Also, the unit design of liberators is I think intended for zoning out the army.. I may have a hard time accepting the nerf to it but maybe it is for the good of the game.. nerfing widow mines will just be too much for terran of a nerf..
How about only reducing the damage of mines when they are burrowed under the liberation zones?
On January 28 2017 10:42 Peggies wrote: The problem in TvP is that mines under liberation zones are too strong and protoss does not have any good counters except for colossus or tempest.. and if you blink in the zones the stalkers will get melted by the mines..
Also, the unit design of liberators is I think intended for zoning out the army.. I may have a hard time accepting the nerf to it but maybe it is for the good of the game.. nerfing widow mines will just be too much for terran of a nerf..
How about only reducing the damage of mines when they are burrowed under the liberation zones?
No, having special cases like that make the game even more unfriendly to players, and introduces additional irrational behaviour.
Like you, I can accept the Liberator nerf, but question the widow mine nerf. Keep the ability to one shot Oracles, Adepts and Stalkers but nerf the splash damage.
But if they dare nerf the tanks zoning ability later on then I am done with the game.
On January 28 2017 05:32 Boggyb wrote: Someone on the design and balance team really, really loves hydralisks.
Edit2: On January 28 2017 06:59 Zulu23 wrote: If widowmines get compensated with a real invisibilty I won't mind the splash damage nerf. I always feel like they are much to easyto avoid, due to the visibilty on the ground textures and the activation animation.....
wtf, this is laughably broken.
Why should this be broken, while zerg burrow is almost totally invisible?
Because zerg's borrow isn't a massable, recharging aoe, whose very balance is based around counter-micro, which would be impossible with what you just suggested. Also, because that would effect all the TvX matchups, while this is just effecting TvP.
edit/P.S.: this is a breathtakingly positive response thread to a patch/proposed feedback... it almost feels wrong, but makes me happy
These changes will push Terrans to rely more on tanks in TvP, which is good for the game. Oracles not randomly dying in the middle of the map (but being significantly damaged) will make the game less about blind luck, which is good for the game. Hydra buff makes PvZ more difficult. I don't think it will break the match-up though. I hope hydras become somewhat viable in ZvT under niche conditions (like in BW). Maybe they become good against mech. They become cost effective opponents of liberators at least. In my opinion, good for the game. Carrier nerf makes sense. It's still a buff from 25 in HOTS. Lategame should not be overwhelmingly favored for any race. Good for the game.
Thus, these changes are generally good for the game.
Tell me again why a Widow Mine hiding behind a Refinery/CC/Barracks, or under a unit should one shot an Oracle? Do I have to rotate/tilt shift my view every time I dare fly near the Terrans base. I should put those binds on a more accessible key if so.
Wow, every other change in the patch (including the only one actually being pushed out) has been vastly overshadowed by the potential WM nerf.
It's such a pleasant surprise to see that the community is not blind to the incredible gamebreaking potential of a WM nerf. (Impact, that is; a splash nerf could be justified). It's also pleasant to see that there's no serious opposition, just a few ludicrously biased and blatantly fallacious shitposts (always gonna be that one guy who refuses to look even a nanometer past the confines of his own race).
For once in a very long time, the community feels good.
On January 28 2017 13:42 Entropy137 wrote: Tell me again why a Widow Mine hiding behind a Refinery/CC/Barracks, or under a unit should one shot an Oracle? Do I have to rotate/tilt shift my view every time I dare fly near the Terrans base. I should put those binds on a more accessible key if so.
I'm on the fence about some of the WM changes (not being able to 1-shot oracles), but i definitely understand this point of view. You can definitely be REALLY sneaky with them, which can make it extremely frustrating...
That being said, I'm pretty in favor of a lot of these changes, I'm happy about hydras, happy about liberators, happy about WMs for the time being, so we'll see!
On January 28 2017 13:42 Entropy137 wrote: Tell me again why a Widow Mine hiding behind a Refinery/CC/Barracks, or under a unit should one shot an Oracle? Do I have to rotate/tilt shift my view every time I dare fly near the Terrans base. I should put those binds on a more accessible key if so.
so you can have factory builds instead of being pidgeonholed into tailoring your build around defending oracle or risking to have to type gg before 4.00 to a single unit.
I understand its a rock paper scissor hard counter but the oracle beam in itself is such a frustrating ability in the early game because you can not kill the oracle with any other units available at this time. you can only deflect the oracle and hope not to lose too many workers.
they should nerf the splash so it doesnt act as a small emp in army vs army fights instead.
at this point I dont even know anymore. Should terran expect to be able to kill the unit or is it an investment that will give protoss minimum 4-5 worker kills and at least 1 tag on the opponents army?
But mech is still dead in all matchups except maybe TvT and even there it is under performing compared to bio.
So in order to solve this Blizzard is thinking about nerfing widow mines and increasign Hydra hitpoints.
Nerfing widow mines while slightly weaken bio in TvP will be the final nail in the coffin for mech. In TvZ Hydra buff will not matter much in against bio but it will make things even worse for mech.
Since it is bio that is OP while mech is almost unplayable would it not make more sense to nerf bio instead?
I suggest removing medivac speed boost. It could be added back as a research uppgrade. This way bio is nerfed, drops becomes less OP early game and bio gets nerfed without impacting mech.
On January 28 2017 17:26 Zulu23 wrote: Again.... As a Terran player I can accept a nerf on the Liberator. But not straight forward. I would appreciate to get a compensation for a nerf.
T will be nerf because the race is too strong, but if you give T a compensation nerf, T will stay too strong...
On January 28 2017 06:22 PtitDrogo wrote: If they REALLY wanna make it so that widow mine doesn't one shot an oracle, they're going to have to increase the AA of the cyclone by a lot, otherwise stargate play will be super ridiculous
Whatever we will just do ebay first every game...that will also make it possible to put a PF in the natural.
You need a stupid amount of turrets to fend off oracles.
Yeah im joking ofc hence the PF comment. Its an awful change.
On January 28 2017 07:53 sneakyfox wrote: This week we've had Zest 3-0 ByuN, Stats 2-1 ByuN, Trap 2-0 Maru and Patience going 5-6 against Innovation. It seems these Protoss players are figuring it out.
Seems unecessary to nerf Liberators. Let the players figure it out, let the game evolve so we get to see something new.
Today we had Zest 2-0 Maru, Solar 2-1 ByuN, Byul 2-1 TY, and Dark 3-1 Innovation.
yeah finally hydra buff maby this can help playing hydra vs terran more! Widow mine nerf seems good , carrier interceptor cost well maby lets make 1 interceptor cost 50 minerals so we never see carrier again right? its too op so lets nerf it into useless shit unit again. Also i write under every community update: cyclone can be buffed pretty well so it can deal with oracles and would be quite ok mid game AA so mech can push out vs toss. Just change the lockon shooting time from 14 seconds to 7 seconds for example . This way without changeing its damage overall 1 shot would do 16 damage instead of 8 damage, so maby 2 cyclones could kill 1 fcking phoenix flying over ur army.
Patch widow mines. +Shield damage is and has always been completely unnecessary. They still need to 1-shot oracles, but there is absolutely no reason for widow mines completely countering every charge playstyle. It should never have been in the game and I'm very glad it's finally being looked at.
yeah this WM change is going to be so bad and you will see Terrans get abused by SG nonstopp in pro matches, because theres no reason not to proxy SG terran now..
early game TvP is very stressful against high MMR Protoss, and its about to become worse without having any significant impact on the midgame or reasons why the matchup is actually difficult for protoss in the first place (need for splash midgame, medivac boosters), so yet again in 2017 we will see this matchup balanced around early game harass and defense and massive game winning advantages given one way or the other in less than 5 minutes of actual game play.
hard to get hyped about someone blindly building an ebay and turrets and winning a game for it
hard to get hyped about someone putting 4 marines in a bunker at the front and losing the game because they were there and not sitting in the mineral line
Actually the widow mine patch is very much about helping protoss in the midgame. Right now the combination of mines/tanks makes adepts and zealots perfectly useless. Don't worry, they'll tweak numbers to make mines 1-shot oracles. Think beyond that.
zerg too strong. did you see nation wars? mass zerg players won lots of games.In the big tournament they always win too. even tho they got nerf on their units, economy system stands for zerg. protoss and terran get rekt by cheep ling/bane. terran still being ass in the late game. i want to see terrans winning in the late game. considering TvP in the mid game, i think tank damage is more problematic than widowmine&liberator.
i do not want to build this unit at all, its not predictable and take a ton of supply doing nothing vs robotics, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
widow mine splash/widow mines killing adepts == a non issue
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote: i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though.
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote: i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though.
My thoughts beyond that: chargelots will be hilariously terrifying.
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote: i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
How do you win
rax fe rax rax and try your best, or reaper cuz its a cheesy terrible map into 111
i almost beat zest the other day, so im not totally retarded (and he won play straight up. no proxies, just robotics, observers, forge ups and blink)
u dont need to open mine drop, but u have to open mines vs the cheesy shit. vs a proper proxy oracle and chrono'd units i actually just have zero idea what protoss is doing and thats why you need mines.
this is my main point: "we cant afford to be in a position where theres no reason not to proxy SG vs terran and there are three different followups that each beat the correct responses to their counterparts"
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
On January 28 2017 20:01 c0sm0naut wrote: i literally do not care about any of that
i do not build this unit midgame
i do not want to build this unit, “I hate when I’m on a flight and I wake up with a water bottle next to me like oh great now I gotta be responsible for this water bottle”
thats how i feel about this unit, i only build it so i dont have to commit half of my marines in my main base while protoss sits outside my bunker chronoing voidrays and licking his lips
like this change is actually so bad, 100% the developers do not play this videogame
The change is not supposed to make mines bad against oracles. I guarantee you it will not go live this way. Think beyond that, though.
My thoughts beyond that: chargelots will be hilariously terrifying.
Yeah since the wm buff chargelots have received a damage buff and a speed buff. I think mines need to be as strong as they are to keep chargelots in check. The liberator nerf is pretty big though, I don't think T needs another nerf.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
You would also need more overlords to drop the same amount of hydras.
On January 28 2017 21:06 Zulu23 wrote: Without the splash bonus to shields, zealots become ridiculus powerful earlygame, to good together with adepts....
I disagree with this: widowmines will no longer evaporate half of the P army, putting them at a tremendous disadvantage, it will still heavily soften up a lot of zealots so a tank or two will finish off big chunks of the army still.
On January 28 2017 22:45 reneg wrote: I disagree with this: widowmines will no longer evaporate half of the P army, putting them at a tremendous disadvantage, it will still heavily soften up a lot of zealots so a tank or two will finish off big chunks of the army still.
Tanks are trash against chargelots because they close the gap so quickly, not just to the tanks but also to your other units, they make tanks blow up bio too much.
I don't understand why I never "clean entire mineral lines" when I open Oracle.. usually a single turret is enough to buy time for the marInes to come back and repel the Oracle. I kill usually 3-6 workers, but for the investment of SG+oracle that does not seem so dramatic or black and white as you make it seem. I mean, it's usually more.game ending a wm drop that get a lucky shot Maybe I'm just very bad
I really don't know how I feel about the TvP changes... On one hand, when I watch pro games, it's true that top terrans do seems really strong against P... On the other hand, I'm currently sitting atop of my 20% winrate in TvP (dia1 EU), so yeah.
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
Ye i know all of this.. All i said is that hydras dps are like marines...
On January 28 2017 06:37 SlammerSC2 wrote: Imo Blizzard should make Lurkers more accessible in either lurker den morph time or cost. I hope this could help to shut down most bio play so games could turn into more strategic mech play.
Yep. It's why I favored making hydras cheaper over buffing Hp as far as realistic patches go.
Dream patch is making hydras tier 1 which also indirectly helps the lurker.
Hatch tech hydras man, the dream since the LotV beta. Could've moved ravagers to lair for all I care.
It's funny how a lot of players has this dream but nobody actually believes it will ever happen. 1 Supply 75/25 Hydra on hatch - it would solve so many issues that emerged across all sc2 expansions.
On oracle/WM: 1st step: leave WM single target dmg as it is but remove +shield tag on splash. 2nd step: remove +shield tag on single target and nerf/redesign/remove pulsar beam on oracle. 3rd step: remove ability for WM to attack flying units, compensate by reducing cost/build time/supply.
I believe this would make the gameplay better overall, at the same time i think it would encourage more overlord drops cuz hydras are like marines=amazing dps
Drops with hydras wouldn't be that terrifying as marine drops I think. DPS are similar but hydras are much slower than stimmed Marines, overlords are also slower than speedyvacs which also provide healing. So it will be still much harder to deal with Marine drop than hydra drop. And if hydra drops become a thing it would be just beneficial for a game imho as there is little dropping action from Zerg usually besides bane drops and occasional early ling drops.
Ye i know all of this.. All i said is that hydras dps are like marines...
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
On January 28 2017 19:49 Olli wrote: Actually the widow mine patch is very much about helping protoss in the midgame. Right now the combination of mines/tanks makes adepts and zealots perfectly useless. Don't worry, they'll tweak numbers to make mines 1-shot oracles. Think beyond that.
You have to worry every time the balance team propose a stupid patch. Because sometimes it goes live (range hydra, 5mineral interceptor, widow mine nerf in HotS ...)
Well, what about reducing oracle speed/acceleration in counter part of widow mine nerf so that it can be killable with stim marins and that it doesn't end in an infinite free reveled terran army in the mid game ?
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
i feel like for the amount of defense we saw from classic (absolutely none, he didnt even notice them), that was an appropriate amount of probe kills haha
im pretty sure the collosus didnt die in the fight. classic won cuz hes just straight up better than alive and had better upgrades + economy
On January 28 2017 22:55 VHbb wrote: I don't understand why I never "clean entire mineral lines" when I open Oracle.. usually a single turret is enough to buy time for the marInes to come back and repel the Oracle. I kill usually 3-6 workers, but for the investment of SG+oracle that does not seem so dramatic or black and white as you make it seem. I mean, it's usually more.game ending a wm drop that get a lucky shot Maybe I'm just very bad
try proxying the stargate and not building mothership core/stalker/wg research before u plant SG, just an adept. i lose to that all day even when i see it as it is constructing, its just a solid pressure and 3 nexus is typical followup
On January 29 2017 00:39 SSMMA wrote: Well, what about reducing oracle speed/acceleration in counter part of widow mine nerf so that it can be killable with stim marins and that it doesn't end in an infinite free reveled terran army in the mid game ?
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: In what world should a 75/25 unit one shot a 150/150 unit, this should have never been a thing.
WM rarely get to be that effective, they only have 5 range, are stationary while charged and have a very clear visual indicator of where it is and what its shoting, WM mostly where good for holding ground but they where never capable of defending
On January 28 2017 06:10 aeonsies wrote: Also I'm sorry Oracles can wreck mineral lines if you don't move them or defend against them (which Terran has multiple units to do this). Would you like to trade places where a single unseen WM wrecks 5-7 workers in the blink of an eye with no warning?
You mean like an oracle does right now? With the exception you can't run away from them, if they catch you with your pants down you are as good as dead.
Also WM splash is nowhere big enough to kill that many workers, 3-4 max, unless the player has good reaction and map awareness where it becomes 0 because you can bait the shot into a geyser.
3-4max? lol did you watch the Alive vs Classic game? 30probes kill in 2 drops.
he dropped 4 mines at 2 different bases, burrowed them all and classic literally did not move his probes? iirc
and then classic won that game, lul
But it's definitely more than 3-4probe kills per WM shot as claimed. 1 drop with 2WM killed 11 another drop with 4WM killed 19...
Alive lost because he's overcommit on vikings & fails to scout, he got totally duped by Classic with fast storm tech He got like 12vikings vs 2 collosi & 5-6 HT? with storms.
i feel like for the amount of defense we saw from classic (absolutely none, he didnt even notice them), that was an appropriate amount of probe kills haha
im pretty sure the collosus didnt die in the fight. classic won cuz hes just straight up better than alive and had better upgrades + economy
Hahaha, To be fair, both classic & alive were not on top of their games. Classic with weak workers' line defense & alive not burrowing mines under libs, overproducing vikings & too little medivacs to heal overstim bio. If there were 1 or 2 mines under the libs, no way in hell classic's mass chargelots archons composition would work. They will just melt to mines. If classic continues with this form, he will be swept by better terrans or zergs. But that's a moot point.
To wipe off whole mineral line within 5sec is just appalling. That's the issue! If the same WM cannot wipe out scv & drones like it did to probes, why should it remain so?
A Hydra HP buff and a lib nerf?! Blizzard sure does love to tug on my heartstrings. And to all you P who voted no - come on...I can't believe the poll is in favor of no...I guess carriers will just continue to rule the day if this doesn't go through . Hydras need love...Stop fighting it!
I ended up doing a short video talking about TvP in relation to the balance changes from this community feedback, I hope TL is ok with the youtube embed.
Finally some real changes, keep the good work blizz and think about demote league, everyone is diamond or master.. And no way.. I remember when diamond was something to be proud..
Almost no pro gamer uses mech regularly in TvZ in tournament matches.
The reason for this is that Swam Hosts hard counter mech. Mech can not counter Swarm Hosts until late game when you have lots of Hellbats with blue flame protecting your army.
The problem is the Swarm Hosts price. The cheap price means that you can always hit a timing before the mech player has the tools to deal with Swarm Hosts. The mech player can not blindly invest in mass hellbats early game since you will need tanks and thors in order to survive against normal Zerg compositions. This means that when the Zerg player goes for early Swarm Hosts (for instance fast muta followed by Swarm Hosts) the mech player can never have the army to combat the Swarm Hosts without losing expansive gas units without any resource loss for the Zerg player. The game then quickly spirals out of control for the mech player.
The only solution to this is to increase the cost of Swarm Hosts to something more reasonable.
On January 29 2017 19:45 MockHamill wrote: Almost no pro gamer uses mech regularly in TvZ in tournament matches.
The reason for this is that Swam Hosts hard counter mech. Mech can not counter Swarm Hosts until late game when you have lots of Hellbats with blue flame protecting your army.
The problem is the Swarm Hosts price. The cheap price means that you can always hit a timing before the mech player has the tools to deal with Swarm Hosts. The mech player can not blindly invest in mass hellbats early game since you will need tanks and thors in order to survive against normal Zerg compositions. This means that when the Zerg player goes for early Swarm Hosts (for instance fast muta followed by Swarm Hosts) the mech player can never have the army to combat the Swarm Hosts without losing expansive gas units without any resource loss for the Zerg player. The game then quickly spirals out of control for the mech player.
The only solution to this is to increase the cost of Swarm Hosts to something more reasonable.
Mech has nothing to catch SHs with. You can't invest into a large number of banshees, hellions do nothing to them and cyclones they just run away from. If Swarm Hosts were light, then we could have cat and mouse games where hellions would chase them around the map. That would actually be fun, but the balance team simply doesn't want mech to be viable.
They don't even mention mech in their ridiculous updates.
SC2's dev team is so out of touch. A mine nerf would be such a wrong move in the current situation. I never understood why they even added the liberator.
If they would've kept the marauder like in hots, terran would probably still be good, but protoss could also fight terran better.
They shifted terrans strength into liberators ---> what counters liberators ? ---> Stalker (later SG tech, but 2base pushes are the real issue here)
So Let's say they never added the liberator and bio would simply be better like back in the days. Sure, 2base pushes would still be strong, but now protoss would've way more counter potential because every unit of them can attack bio.
You can go for immortals, collosi,... what ever. But liberators can only get countered by stalkers and stalkers obviously get wrecked by tanks and mines. That's why those 2base pushes are so strong right now.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Funny how blizz spent 2 months speaking about making mech viable but we don't hear from them now that it's even worse than before the patch. And way worse btw, mech was getting quite common vZ.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Don't say this as a knock to mech players, if anything this is yet another knock at David Kim and the team and their seemingly, "blind leading the blind leading the dumb" policy of balance patches, and by that I mean they look like they hardly even play their own game.
Redesign Oracle to not end games, redesign the Swarm Host to counter mass air end game armies, it's really not that fucking hard, if your job is to sit there and tune the game and discuss the game I don't see how these things cannot be tossed up? Or is it merely another case of, "I'm David Kim, I'm grandfathered into this job like a bad NFL coach that wont get fired, if you want Brood War go play it".
Probably an opinion that sounds like a broken record now... But why not buff protoss instead of nerfing terran Especially they decided to buff hydra anyway
On January 30 2017 03:46 Yiome wrote: Probably an opinion that sounds like a broken record now... But why not buff protoss instead of nerfing terran Especially they decided to buff hydra anyway
Because it would brake ZvP for Zerg and next update they would have to buff Zerg that would brake other things...
They don't adress SH because SH is like the only option for Zerg to counter turtle mech. If they remive SH from the equasion, Zerg is dead because every pro Terran plays mech and we're back in HOTS with mech OP era. Must i remmind u that they adressed mech problems with Viper nerf?
Man...i just have enough of your whine. Once and for all- mech is just AN OPTION for Terran. It can work miracle. If Zerg don' scout it early its almost free win for Terran. It can work either as AN OPTIO. Stop bitching about mech as it was 4th race.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Funny how blizz spent 2 months speaking about making mech viable but we don't hear from them now that it's even worse than before the patch. And way worse btw, mech was getting quite common vZ.
It's funny to always hear Terrans whining while they're are overperforming....
They always act like : I've selected Terran, i'm the best player, if I lose it's 100% balance fault because "I'm the best, I play Terran"
And the situation is quite stupid, it's like if Zerg during Infestor/Broodlords area were crying for Roach/Hydra to be as strong as broodlords infestor...
Mech isn't as strong as bio, but still if you want, you can be GM with it... So yeah, it's viable.
And for non T player, Playing vs mech isn't entertaining at all, you never have fun when T decides to play mech...
Honestly, nearly anyone wants to leave the game, and stays only to keep their ladder points...
Even Terran complains about it in TvT...
And never heard any propositions to make it something else than the "Camp, get deathball, win", it's just about : "Well i camp really hard, but it's not really an invincible deathball, X and Z can counter it" :
- Plz make them useless, so i could a move to victory after having camped...
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Funny how blizz spent 2 months speaking about making mech viable but we don't hear from them now that it's even worse than before the patch. And way worse btw, mech was getting quite common vZ.
It's funny to always hear Terrans whining while they're are overperforming....
They always act like : I've selected Terran, i'm the best player, if I lose it's 100% balance fault because "I'm the best, I play Terran"
And the situation is quite stupid, it's like if Zerg during Infestor/Broodlords area were crying for Roach/Hydra to be as strong as broodlords infestor...
Mech isn't as strong as bio, but still if you want, you can be GM with it... So yeah, it's viable.
And for non T player, Playing vs mech isn't entertaining at all, you never have fun when T decides to play mech...
Honestly, nearly anyone wants to leave the game, and stays only to keep their ladder points...
Even Terran complains about it in TvT...
And never heard any propositions to make it something else than the "Camp, get deathball, win",
it's just about : "Well i camp really hard, but it's not really an invincible deathball, X and Z can counter it" :
- Plz make them useless, so i could a move to victory after having camped...
Nice bullshit that doesn't address my point. Expected considering your post history.
On January 30 2017 02:22 raff100 wrote: It's funny how every mech player complains about the SH but not a single word has been said by Blizzard about this unit.
Funny how blizz spent 2 months speaking about making mech viable but we don't hear from them now that it's even worse than before the patch. And way worse btw, mech was getting quite common vZ.
It's funny to always hear Terrans whining while they're are overperforming....
They always act like : I've selected Terran, i'm the best player, if I lose it's 100% balance fault because "I'm the best, I play Terran"
And the situation is quite stupid, it's like if Zerg during Infestor/Broodlords area were crying for Roach/Hydra to be as strong as broodlords infestor...
Mech isn't as strong as bio, but still if you want, you can be GM with it... So yeah, it's viable.
And for non T player, Playing vs mech isn't entertaining at all, you never have fun when T decides to play mech...
Honestly, nearly anyone wants to leave the game, and stays only to keep their ladder points...
Even Terran complains about it in TvT...
And never heard any propositions to make it something else than the "Camp, get deathball, win",
it's just about : "Well i camp really hard, but it's not really an invincible deathball, X and Z can counter it" :
- Plz make them useless, so i could a move to victory after having camped...
Nice bullshit that doesn't address my point. Expected considering your post history.
If you can't play mech while the tank crush all the ground, the cyclon all the armored, the banshee escape mutas, and skyterran ruling the late game vs Z, while viper/broodlords got nerfed, well it's no point buffing mech any more : "Mech will never be not viable" according to Terran old caster...
On January 28 2017 07:53 sneakyfox wrote: This week we've had Zest 3-0 ByuN, Stats 2-1 ByuN, Trap 2-0 Maru and Patience going 5-6 against Innovation. It seems these Protoss players are figuring it out.
Seems unecessary to nerf Liberators. Let the players figure it out, let the game evolve so we get to see something new.
A few select wins and loses don't prove a point that they are "figuring it out", not to mention Byun has not played well and even lost to Ryung in gsl.
I can make my own case looking at GSL. Trap got out of his group of gsl only beating zergs, losing to TY. Zest is outl. Classic had an easy group. HerO made it out by losing 2-0 to maru and playing a PvP twice. SoS played no terrans.
I think Stats and Classic are the only protoss's to win a PvT series in this GSL ro32, so that's saying something. Patience didn't even make it into GSL.
TvZ is at 53,28%. Not that I think Aligulac matters all that much, but since you brought it up...
Anyway, the widow mine nerf is to shield damage and would not matter outside of TvP and if TvZ has a problem, it's definitely not Hydras. If this buff would actually mean we would finally get to see some hydras vs Terran, that would be a really good change, but I doubt it.
The only problem i have with Terran in TvZ is how cost efficient especially with LotV economy BIO is. It's ridiculous how much mules synergize with mainly mineral cost of BIO and how.much Terran can pump this. Funny how Terran can pump army fadter and more than Zerg. I mean, which race supposed to be the Swarm again? Zerg with 3 larva cannot compete in macro against Terran. Less larva means less drones in early game, that means slower saturation and lower army supply which makes Zerg vulnerable to attacks. Especially with Terran harras arsenal. Must i remind u that Zerg suposed to have lesser units but his strenght supossed to be in numbers and economy? Now we have equal or worse eco than Terran and much lesser units. Its really hard to compete vs this. 3 larva is the biggest nerf of all when it comes to macro mechanics nerf of all 3 races in LOTV. It snowballs hard in midgame and thats why Zerg turtles till hive to get access to more cost efficient units.
so let me get this straight.. terrans have to get turrets to defend vs oracles and protoss has to get detection to defend vs widow mines. seems fair to me.
terran too strong defensively. i think widow mine nerf would help open more harass options up. i hope it goes through... im not certain because of the Terran wine
I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
On January 31 2017 20:00 bObA wrote: I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
Terran always has to 'figure it out' or 'wait for the meta to settle' when they're losing to other races. Remember Adepts? Remember 8 armor Ultras? These things were in the game for months. But when Terran is winning alot, it's nerfhammer in a week. Remember how the balance team killed Skyterran in 2 weeks? Even though noone made Vipers against it? Where was the 'time to figure it out' back then?
terrans have to get turrets to defend vs oracles and protoss has to get detection to defend vs widow mines. seems fair to me.
Well, you can argue, that a single well placed wm shots down oracle harass completely by killing it with a single shot ... while protoss needs a lot more units (ressources) in place (or has to pull workers).
But that's not the real issue anyways. WM drops can be strong and game ending if toss doesn't defend well, but that can be said for nearly every form of worker harass. Problem with wm is not the agressive/cheesy worker-harass option ... it's just too ridiculous good in standard/ viable army composition too. 5 or 6 widow mines can shut down half an toss gateway army by themselfes, the bio behind them can just sit down and watch. Show me how 5 or 6 oracles can achieve this amount of damage against a MMM terran army and we can discuss. (even besides the point oracles are much more expensive then a wm) ^^
It's just a too strong too early too heavy splash damage unit. And it costs close to nothing ... i wonder what terrans (or zerg ... or even protoss) would say, if the cost of the oracle would be reduced to 75/25 ...
On January 31 2017 20:00 bObA wrote: I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
Terran always has to 'figure it out' or 'wait for the meta to settle' when they're losing to other races. Remember Adepts? Remember 8 armor Ultras? These things were in the game for months. But when Terran is winning alot, it's nerfhammer in a week. Remember how the balance team killed Skyterran in 2 weeks? Even though noone made Vipers against it? Where was the 'time to figure it out' back then?
I fully agree with your comment. Also the "new" cyclone got nerfed before release, but than reverted because its was beyond trash.
That nerf on mine single target is totally nonsense. 99% of people know that the problem is the splash. That nerf would make mines useless vs protoss, and nobody wants that (even me as a protoss player)
While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
On January 31 2017 22:11 PPN wrote: While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
I haven't watched a single game, but the last balance patch happened in May. According to Aligulac, PvT started to swing towards T around the beginning of December. My question is, what caused the swing?
On January 31 2017 22:11 PPN wrote: While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
I haven't watched a single game, but the last balance patch happened in May. According to Aligulac, PvT started to swing towards T around the beginning of December. My question is, what caused the swing?
We had patch 3.8 at the end of november. I think it´s important to keep in mind that after such a major update it does take some time for players to adjust.
On January 31 2017 22:11 PPN wrote: While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
I haven't watched a single game, but the last balance patch happened in May. According to Aligulac, PvT started to swing towards T around the beginning of December. My question is, what caused the swing?
We had patch 3.8 at the end of november. I think it´s important to keep in mind that after such a major update it does take some time for players to adjust.
Thanks. Liquipedia didn't have "balance changes" but "multiplayer" this time, so I overlooked it.
On January 31 2017 22:11 PPN wrote: While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
I haven't watched a single game, but the last balance patch happened in May. According to Aligulac, PvT started to swing towards T around the beginning of December. My question is, what caused the swing?
"How will we defend against oracles? We are doomed, damn you blizz!1! Omg gg bfg" By I don't know, let me think, I can feel it, it's coming....
A MISSILE TURRET
I want my million dollars right now To which terran will reply "well smart !@#, get a cannon and you are protected against widow mines, see? No nerf needed" Ha! Widow mines don't come in alone, the cannon will auto-target what is attacking it (marines or marauders or whatever it is) and unless your attention is right there at the right split second to split off probes by sacking at least 1 per widow mine, protecting the cannon because if you opened fast forge your robo will be slightly delayed which means you might not have mobile detection ready. By parking a turret in the mineral line you can forget about it, it will do it's job and unless the toss is making a stupid amount of oracles that's just it, harassment from oracles is denied. But noooo, u wot m8? Who's got the time for that, I'm gonna play Bio and will build an e-bay anyways but turrets are for pussies. Oh irony, please do come and take me away...
"Oh no, Zealot/Archon will be a thing again, those pesky mineral dump units with the ridiculous op charge will kill us" As far as I know Marines only cost 50 minerals (which makes them a mineral dump) and have stimpack, marauders are 25 gas and have stimpack, medivacs are 100 gas and have the "press b to go faster " button as well. The whole MMM composition is pretty low on gas, albeit when you do start mixing in libs and tanks it does get a little more vespene intensive. So what is the problem, we are fighting on fair arms, MMM vs Zealot/Archon share many similarities, I don't see why Zealot/Archon shouldn't be viable because a bunch of 75/25 2 supply burrowed mines that deny any melee range attacks...
I see a lot of people advancing counter-propositions like "make the turret not require an engineering bay" Do you or do you not realize that a "nerfed" (so to speak) widow mine will leave an oracle with about 15 hp left? Do you know that 3 marines kill a 15 hp oracle? Do you know that even if your poor cyclone has "terrible" AA with 1 lock on it can get an oracle? Do you know 2 "nerfed" mines kill an oracle, and that if you were going for a drop you would have had 2 mines anyways? Well, you might say, Zerg has it easy, Zerg has Spores that don't require evo chambers, to which I say, correct, however: At about 4 minutes (regular in-base stargate oracle timing) or if proxying about 3 and a half minutes, give or take the Zerg most probably won't have Lair, which means no AA unit apart from the Queen, but the Queen doesn't deal the damage of a widow mine or of a lock on, with the last 2 being far superior to a queen in terms of damage output. It is REQUIRED for the Zerg to have non evo-chamber AA, because at 4 minutes they don't have mobile AA apart from the Queen, which in itself doesn't deal unit breaking apocalyptic damage and off creep it is so slow you'd be better off pulling drones off the line and into the queen to be protected. This just doesn't compare and doesn't work that way for our Terran friends, a Terran by 4 minutes could have 6 marines, 2, 3 or even 4 cyclones, 2-3 widow (I don't mean they have all these units at the same time, these are just examples of what a 4 minute army COULD look like) mines, hell, they might even have a viking/liberator if for whatever reason they are REALLY rushing a starport out. If the Terran goes CC first well then you kind of asked for it pal, it's one of the risks associated with going expansion first before tech. I would like to recall the 2013-2014 era for Protoss, back when it was Terran asking for the nerfs because supposedly Protoss was too strong, many requests varied from Zealot/Archon nerfs to blink stalker nerfs. The most desired nerf however was to the Colossus You see, you, Terrans, the same people posting now that the Widow Mine is completely fine were absolutely dying for a Colossus nerf: It dealt too much damage, it was too big, it was too this or too that, until in the end at the start of LoTV it was hammered down, it was killed, damage output was cut because this towering robot was too much to handle for you. You Terrans, the same people saying that a 75/25 unit should sack probes, zealots, melee range attacking units, oracles, warp prisms whined and complained that the Colossus was too strong against what it was made to counter, aka the MMM bio ball. Oh hypocrisy, oh irony, please do come and lift me away! A 300/200 6 supply 1 minute build time unit was nerfed because a bunch of 50 mineral dump machine gunners and 75/25 grenade throwers tier 1, Barracks tech, low vespene, low supply and amazing scalabilty with upgrades couldn't beat a composition of tier 3.5 (if we count the thermal lance upgrade, another 200/200 upgrade) expensive, both resource and tech wise units. It's like sending a skinny guy to a wrestling match with a 200 pound slab of muscle. IF your opponent BOTHERED to commit to expensive tech and units why do you suddenly expect to beat it with units that you unlock by the 1:30 minute mark. You must also bother to tech up, I know it's troublesome, and for you expert players playing the hardest race who swear by micro and think that using battlecruisers and banshees is for pussies it's something that you must yet comprehend, I mean, the most advanced tech you have ever researched against Protoss was and still is stimpack It is so hard to bash when the ball is on your side, when you are dominating the game, it is so easy to blame the player playing the other race because supposedly he needs to "L2P" which is what you are doing, posts in this very thread confirm it. "Libs are fine, you need to micro, WMs are fine, you need to micro" Remember however that in a not so distant pass you were the ones whining and complaining asking for a nerf to something that directly countered your MMM composition. Now we are asking (and finally someone has listened) for nerfs to units that are just too good, you see, unlike Colossi (which were made to counter MMM) we are asking a nerf to things like Liberators, what are liberators? Why were liberators even put into the game? Liberators were conceived as a pain in the !@#, shift clicking every base, taking a few probes there, a few here and then setting them up into chokes so that the opponent either fights tucked in a little corner or has to literally WALK around half the map to intercept reinforcements, for you to park your liberators the opposite way (now facing the opponent) and hopefully then get better trades by fighting in the open and not tucked into some corner near an expansion and/or base. Widow Mines were made as a defensive early/mid game measure, made to counter blink, 1/2 base all ins, proxy shenanigans. Now, with Protoss being in the state that it is, no longer being the playmaker race but rather "Let's hope he doesn't attack so that I can tech to fleet beacon/robo bay and put up a good fight" race there is no need for WMs to be that strong, a unit that can be parked, burrowed and that gets at least 5 probes if the Toss is microing an attack at the natural or just doesn't have the skill at the lower levels of play to be constantly looking at the minimap and focusing the Mine right has it comes near the probes. Widow Mines have shifted from a defensive option to an offensive attacking unit that can literally be used against everything, be it air or ground, be it immortals, stalkers, zealots, colossi, void rays, carriers, Widow Mines will almost always get the value for money. Widow Mines are a TvP Terran disruptor, sure, they have a lower damage output, but they are burrowed, always hit, always deal some form of damage and cost 75 minerals and 25 fart gas to make, not to mention the IMO absolutely nonsense +shields damage (were they being space racist when they made these things??) You must now realize that the dusk of your era is soon approaching and hopefully these changes will at least discourage plays so cheesy that you can smell the cheddar from your monitor. At least Oracles need attention because they'll just start attacking buildings or units that are attacking them, so they require at least SOME focus fire, shift clicking a base or pressing "E" to burrow isn't enough.
It is easy to forget when you were the beggar asking for help, now that you are privileged you refuse to remember and act like the people that preceded you. This notion applies to everything in life, even Starcraft 2
i guess youre just quoting urself from another forum u posted this garbage?
if u ever do manage to learn how to play the game ur going to look back on this post and cringe so hard. honestly dude, this is the goldest shit ive ever read lmao
On January 31 2017 22:11 PPN wrote: While the nature of the nerf can be debated, I don't understand why the hell some Terran players keep whining. What games are you even playing/watching? PvT winrate has been at an all-time low around 42% for the last 2 months. The matchup is broken. Something must be done. Also those who complain Terran always get nerfed the quickest sure don't remember the GomTvT era huh.
I haven't watched a single game, but the last balance patch happened in May. According to Aligulac, PvT started to swing towards T around the beginning of December. My question is, what caused the swing?
We had patch 3.8 at the end of november. I think it´s important to keep in mind that after such a major update it does take some time for players to adjust.
I highly doubt it is a matter of adjusting. With so many Terrans units buffed at the same time and weaker Adepts since 3.8, it is not very hard to see how it is very difficult/near impossible on some maps to defend mass Cyclone pressure or any 1-1-1 variants, and how Protoss is forced to make more Stalkers than usual (needed to defend Libs/WM but very hard to keep alive because unfair Freedom zone on some maps and Tanks/Cyclones/Vikings hurting them a lot more than before) and enter mid-game at a severe disadvantage.
On January 31 2017 20:00 bObA wrote: I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
Terran always has to 'figure it out' or 'wait for the meta to settle' when they're losing to other races. Remember Adepts? Remember 8 armor Ultras? These things were in the game for months. But when Terran is winning alot, it's nerfhammer in a week. Remember how the balance team killed Skyterran in 2 weeks? Even though noone made Vipers against it? Where was the 'time to figure it out' back then?
On January 31 2017 20:00 bObA wrote: I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
Terran always has to 'figure it out' or 'wait for the meta to settle' when they're losing to other races. Remember Adepts? Remember 8 armor Ultras? These things were in the game for months. But when Terran is winning alot, it's nerfhammer in a week. Remember how the balance team killed Skyterran in 2 weeks? Even though noone made Vipers against it? Where was the 'time to figure it out' back then?
I fully agree with your comment. Also the "new" cyclone got nerfed before release, but than reverted because its was beyond trash.
Hi guys,i'm just stream watcher not playing at all.But it so strange how no one coment Battlecrusers and broodlords.In my view they are absolute useless right now.It so stupid when some zerg risk to go for BLs and they just got owned from some ground army...and they pretend to be best antiground top tier3 unit in game.And about BCs i see them maby in 1/100 games and when they come just get owned from almost everything.And after years Cariers got some play right now, and all whine about this.In my opinion when u risk and go for tier3 top unit, its absolutly ok to u have some advantage vs u oponent. Why someone will go for tier3 if him oponent just counter him with tier2 units, its what kill this game for me, we just wana to see tier3 big battle and nukes, no mass marines/maruder (nerf them blizzard, no liberators and buff BC and nukes).
On January 31 2017 20:00 bObA wrote: I do not understand why they want to nert Liberator and widow mines when Protoss players won vs terran lately in GSL and other tournaments. Terran has to adapt for months before getting a little nerf of mother ship core, adepts, stalkers etc etc... and now terran can win a bit again they nerf... Innovation Maru TY were losing all thje time vs Zest, Classic and Stats only Byun could win sometimes. But that will be over soon..................................................................................................................
Terran always has to 'figure it out' or 'wait for the meta to settle' when they're losing to other races. Remember Adepts? Remember 8 armor Ultras? These things were in the game for months. But when Terran is winning alot, it's nerfhammer in a week. Remember how the balance team killed Skyterran in 2 weeks? Even though noone made Vipers against it? Where was the 'time to figure it out' back then?
The fuck are you whining, it's true that protoss was the strongest race for some time in LoTV but they have received several nerfs.
And Terrans have been whining about ultras forever while the matchup was balanced, all I heard was whining for a Ultra nerf without suggestions how to give Zerg midgame buffs to compensate for it.
Now Terran got a lot of buffs in a game that was fairly balanced while Zerg and Protoss got a lot lesser impactful buffs and at the same time also got nerfs.
What a surprise that Terran suddenly starts winning, Protoss and Zerg players should just adapt to Terran getting a lot stronger right?
The patch in december was meant to change the design of some units and to make some lesser used units a bit more useful because some matchups were getting a bit stale, it wasn't done to buff certain races compared to others.
Too bad the design changes weren't quite ballsy enough to really change the game, but that is a whole other problem.
i guess youre just quoting urself from another forum u posted this garbage?
if u ever do manage to learn how to play the game ur going to look back on this post and cringe so hard. honestly dude, this is the goldest shit ive ever read lmao
What about mine burrow marks? Ravagers and banelings almost completely nullify mines' use. What if they just make mines more expensive? Would TvZ even work anymore (4M)?
On February 02 2017 05:53 WeddingEpisode wrote: What about mine burrow marks? Ravagers and banelings almost completely nullify mines' use. What if they just make mines more expensive? Would TvZ even work anymore (4M)?
It's almost as if units are supposed to have counters.
On February 02 2017 05:53 WeddingEpisode wrote: What about mine burrow marks? Ravagers and banelings almost completely nullify mines' use. What if they just make mines more expensive? Would TvZ even work anymore (4M)?
It's almost as if units are supposed to have counters.
Never heard a zerg whining about hellbats being good vs lings, or tanks vs roach/banelings, but T always complains that baneling/ultras are good vs marines, that SH/vipers good vs Tanks, or queens good vs banshee/medivac like "My units shouldn't have counter that force me to change my composition and adapt"
3 rax reaper is so broken. Absolutely not enjoyable to watch such bullshit. I wonder if blizzard will ever fix that. Really hate watching any games where this fucking strat is abused. No way to punish, easy transition out of it, no risk involved... Have to rant a little, as this is not adressed in any update and I really wish it would! Time over time lesser players abuse this strat to win against much better players.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Vx4zQIx.jpg)
. Hydras need love...Stop fighting it!
