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On November 30 2016 11:47 Advantageous wrote:
Terran is broken, the players are just a bunch of whiny little [beeps]. Same as Zergs in every expansion, except Terrans just quit the game when they didn't like balance changes in the past.
EDIT: By "Terran", I'm referring to mech-only players like Avilo. Bio players are fine, they learn to adapt and move on with life.
Bio players tend to be just as bad. When mass Marines can't counter something they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
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Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however.
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On November 30 2016 12:18 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 11:47 Advantageous wrote:
Terran is broken, the players are just a bunch of whiny little [beeps]. Same as Zergs in every expansion, except Terrans just quit the game when they didn't like balance changes in the past.
EDIT: By "Terran", I'm referring to mech-only players like Avilo. Bio players are fine, they learn to adapt and move on with life. Bio players tend to be just as bad. When mass Marines can't counter something they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
Protoss players are just as bad. when they can't 1a their deathball every game to victory they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
Zerg players are just as bad. when they can't drone to 70 blindly every game they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
/s
it's getting old.
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Are they keeping SH/hydra/viper/burrow infestor in the game?
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So they accidently jumped the gun. LOOOOOOOOOL
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If I were in David Kim's shoes, I'd probably leave the current colossus dmg output as it is and experimented with increasing its base range instead 
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On November 30 2016 15:10 avilo wrote:
Are they keeping SH/hydra/viper/burrow infestor in the game?
I'm very confident SHs won't stay in the game for long as they invalidate mech play atm and they said they want to make mech more viable.
not so sure about the other things..
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Because people can be characterized by playing a certain faction of a video game
..
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On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos.
I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings.
I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now.
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It's actually hilarious.
Skytoss has been impossible to crack for z/t for years - they introduce an even more OP Carrier which literally has no answer when massed. PvZ is all about spamming pylons, cannons, and finding ways to survive into getting a cpl of carriers (mass adept into 2 gate phoenix into carrier for example).
Lotv ment to adress the deathball issue of protoss - which, somewhat succeeded, the immortal chargelot archon deathball was not as potent as the collosis storm stalker deathball and impossible to crack sentry/blink combos are not as common anymore. Now they want to buff collosus again?
Mech fucking sucks as a playstyle to watch/play against/do, it makes for slow games, for god knows what reason blizzard has (After listening to the community, consisting of mostly players with low apm/skill), put it in their head that they have to make this playstyle viable. If you want people to not have a good time playing/watching your game, sure.
They should make the game fun. None of the shit they are doing makes any sense. Their primary focus should be maximizing fun for everyone involved. This does not mean, giving a race a super fun harass unit but not giving the other races a FUN counter-play, as they have often done in the past, however. (oracle/adept/liberator might be fun to use , but dealing with it - even when quite possible and clearly balanced, simply gives hand/brain cancer)
It means looking at what SC2 does well and what attracts people to this game, and then expanding on it. The primary matchup in Sc2 has always been muta/ling/bio vs m&m/mine etc. Expand on this. Make it even better. Keep frantic fast gameplay and multitask with action on both sides and try to implement it in other matchups as well. Make a public statement that says Fuck mech.
Oh well, one can dream.
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On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however.
If this is true, THEN WHY BUFF RAVEN OF ALL UNITS
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On November 30 2016 18:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however. If this is true, THEN WHY BUFF RAVEN OF ALL UNITS
Yeah, the worst thing they can do with mech, even worse then having it nonviable, is to have it be dependent on Ravens. We already know how shitty games of mass air and mass air casters can be.
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"Carrier is OP", it's amazing what you can learn from this kind of thread..
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On November 30 2016 18:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos. I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings. I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now.
Blizz should really overhaul the SH completely or this issue will keep popping up, it's either unplayable or op the way they designed it.
They should swap the neural and yank abilities of the Infestor and Viper to make yanking more difficult, adjust abilities if needed
(It looks ridiculous anyway, a skinny hovering thing that apparently can cling on to air to move (massive) units towards it)
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Is a Colossus buff really the end of the world as many people make it seem to be?
I think it would be fine, would make toss a bit friendlier to play outside the top 5% of the playerbase. Also, it would bring into light how god-awful Vikings are currently and maybe we could get a buff to those so lategame terran could stand a chance.
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On November 30 2016 07:08 Ingvar wrote:
Some times I don't understand people. 1 year of whining about adepts and when they're buffing an alternative to them people whine again. Colossus isn't some devil spawn straight from hell, it's a simple aoe attack unit. Why don't you just give the game a chance and try to enjoy it in its current state whatever that is?
that's right.
Those hypocrites that say "Buff anything but Collosi" were probably the same bunch that whines about adepts.
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This patch marks the return of "safe free damage", that has always been, and will always be an extremely idiotic dynamic in this game.
We've all seen the game being plagued by units dealing free and safe damage", through free units or energy.
15 range tempest with relevation, HOTS SHs, vipers yanking 300/200 6 supply units with little risk, all these things are horrible for the game.
And now? Now the best build in TvZ is probably the raven rush to spam turrets in mineral lines to 2shot drones. Now we've got a 100/75 unit that spams free units, because DK felt it was a good idea to overbuff the SH to see "how things turn out". And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
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On November 30 2016 22:31 JackONeill wrote:
And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
That's something else i'm not a fan of. Balance aside, i thought carriers are interesting because you have a decision in how to fight them: vikings and go in trying to kill the carriers directly, or libs, turrets mines to kill interceptors and starve the protoss out of minerals.
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On November 30 2016 20:12 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 18:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos. I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings. I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now. Blizz should really overhaul the SH completely or this issue will keep popping up, it's either unplayable or op the way they designed it. They should swap the neural and yank abilities of the Infestor and Viper to make yanking more difficult, adjust abilities if needed (It looks ridiculous anyway, a skinny hovering thing that apparently can cling on to air to move (massive) units towards it)
Yeah i have a bit of a fixation on the SH as a generator of free units that has very long range and good mobility. It probably can't be balanced to be both fair and a fun unit to watch and play.
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On November 30 2016 22:31 JackONeill wrote:
This patch marks the return of "safe free damage", that has always been, and will always be an extremely idiotic dynamic in this game.
We've all seen the game being plagued by units dealing free and safe damage", through free units or energy.
15 range tempest with relevation, HOTS SHs, vipers yanking 300/200 6 supply units with little risk, all these things are horrible for the game.
And now? Now the best build in TvZ is probably the raven rush to spam turrets in mineral lines to 2shot drones. Now we've got a 100/75 unit that spams free units, because DK felt it was a good idea to overbuff the SH to see "how things turn out". And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
i agree with the over all spirit of your post re: Viper yank, however, i prefer to allow Blizzard the space to work out big changes during the off-season. Re: SH .. the volleys out of Siege Tank are free as well. If Blizz is experimenting right now then its the people playing in that IEM Qualifier who should really be angry. not us.
The IEM Qualifier was interesting to watch; the TvT between TY and Maru was incredible. people saying the game is horribly imbalanced are off base. The game might be somewhat imbalanced at this stage. Its not like any of the races has no chance at the top level of the game.
I've gone from Tier 1 Diamond to the top of Tier 3 Diamond with this new patch. I don't think 125 APM Diamond players like me are all that important though. If the patch means slow players like me who are slow to react take a negative ranking hit. whatever... i don't think its evidence DK is a bad designer... maybe i suck more than i thought i did and it was covered up by the original LotV design.
i've heard other non-pro Terran mech players whining and i don't think their whining is important either. To get Mech play used more at the top level of the game its importan to listen to the players at the top.
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EPT
