|
Update:
Hey everyone!
We accidentally jumped the gun here and posted this early. While we are always exploring ways to make the game better, these specific changes are still being thought out and may be tried out at a later date. Apologies for any confusion.
Source
The following changes are being implemented today to the Testing section of Multiplayer, as well as the Balance Test Extension Mod.
Cyclone
Anti-ground weapon range increased from 4 to 6.
Anti-ground weapon minimum scan range updated to 6.5.
"Mag-Field Launchers" upgrade removed.
Colossus
Thermal Lance damage increased from 12 to 12 + 4 vs Light.
Edit: Hm the source has been removed and it says 404 now.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NpZIwR5.png)
|
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted.
|
i cant believe that buff to the colossi.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted.
Mech is fine.
* Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions.
* Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also.
* Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers.
* Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible)
* Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones.
* Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks.
* Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode.
* Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range.
* Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees
* Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
|
South Korea2105 Posts
Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi.
I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras).
Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp
rip tvp? Why?
* terrans still have vikings versus colossies
* 250mm thors can annihilate colossies
* widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields
* ghosts are still viable
* battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies
* buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam
* cyclones counter stalkers super well
|
This will ruin bio and ling/hydra mid game compositions I think. The Colossus attacks 10% faster than in HotS already.
Many zergs have alrady gone back to ling/bling/ravager anyway and bio does not seem too strong vs Protoss. The new chargelots have not even come to full effect yet.
This also means the Viper as the only choice to counter the other races in the late game becomes even more important :/.
Not happy with this, but it's just the test map so far.
|
On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
Sure, mech is fine. It's just that no pro plays it. Theorycraft is a beautiful thing, right?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 04:56 petro1987 wrote:
Sure, mech is fine. It's just that no pro plays it. Theorycraft is a beautiful thing, right?
Maybe because that huge patch is out only for 1.5 week? Were there swarm hour lasting games when SC2:HOTS was released?
Everyone is hyped about hydralisks but many people still not understood how powerfull new cruisers or seeker missiles are (seeker missile tracking range is 19 after upgrade, only Mutalisks can escape if you react ASAP)
|
On November 30 2016 04:59 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:56 petro1987 wrote:
Sure, mech is fine. It's just that no pro plays it. Theorycraft is a beautiful thing, right?
Maybe because that huge patch is out only for 1.5 week? Were there swarm hour lasting games when SC2:HOTS was released? Everyone is hyped about hydralisks but many people still not understood how powerfull new cruisers or seeker missiles are (seeker missile tracking range is 19 after upgrade, only Mutalisks can escape if you react ASAP)
Oh, so the answer is just wait one year to see if mech is viable... I get it. Btw, mass ravens isn't mech. At least not the traditional meaning of the word. Would you call making 50 science vessels mech? Yeah, I don't think so.
|
Or maybe mech is just bad?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 04:53 Musicus wrote:
This will ruin bio and ling/hydra mid game compositions I think. The Colossus attacks 10% faster than in HotS already.
Many zergs have alrady gone back to ling/bling/ravager anyway and bio does not seem too strong vs Protoss. The new chargelots have not even come to full effect yet.
This also means the Viper as the only choice to counter the other races in the late game becomes even more important :/.
Not happy with this, but it's just the test map so far.
Well, if not vipers, then:
- ultralisks can counter colossies well. Except colossies are with immortals, but that would mean less anti-air and vipers might be viable? But what if protoss adds HT to robo units?
- corruptors? Now corruptors are not "dead supply" when colossies are dead, after killing colossies they become zerg void-rays against buildings.
- ravager fungals? That new combo from LOTV may work versus HT, immortals and colossies I think. Burrowed infestors doing surprizing fungals and ravagers sniping colossies. Doesn't it sound nice?
|
On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 05:02 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:59 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:56 petro1987 wrote:
Sure, mech is fine. It's just that no pro plays it. Theorycraft is a beautiful thing, right?
Maybe because that huge patch is out only for 1.5 week? Were there swarm hour lasting games when SC2:HOTS was released? Everyone is hyped about hydralisks but many people still not understood how powerfull new cruisers or seeker missiles are (seeker missile tracking range is 19 after upgrade, only Mutalisks can escape if you react ASAP) Oh, so the answer is just wait one year to see if mech is viable... I get it. Btw, mass ravens isn't mech. At least not the traditional meaning of the word. Would you call making 50 science vessels mech? Yeah, I don't think so.
For me mech is not only Factory units. Starport units greatly fullfilling some weak spots of mech and its lack of mobility.
Yes, liberators might be not that effective vs mutalisk balls, but they AREN'T mean to do that. They are your support units that can deploy and protect territory versus Ultralisks for example. Versus mutalisks you have many other tools in terran factory/starport arsenal.
Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile
I think it's only because whole game became "more mobile", kinda, while mech is still kinda slow, except Cyclones. But cyclones with default 6 range might work I think.
I saw Bly vs TYTY game previous week, I thought zerg wins easily with ultras. But terran just comebacked with Liberators and bio, probably also widow mines.
|
On November 30 2016 05:06 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:02 petro1987 wrote:On November 30 2016 04:59 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:56 petro1987 wrote:
Sure, mech is fine. It's just that no pro plays it. Theorycraft is a beautiful thing, right?
Maybe because that huge patch is out only for 1.5 week? Were there swarm hour lasting games when SC2:HOTS was released? Everyone is hyped about hydralisks but many people still not understood how powerfull new cruisers or seeker missiles are (seeker missile tracking range is 19 after upgrade, only Mutalisks can escape if you react ASAP) Oh, so the answer is just wait one year to see if mech is viable... I get it. Btw, mass ravens isn't mech. At least not the traditional meaning of the word. Would you call making 50 science vessels mech? Yeah, I don't think so. For me mech is not only Factory units. Starport units greatly fullfilling some weak spots of mech and its lack of mobility. Yes, liberators might be not that effective vs mutalisk balls, but they AREN'T mean to do that. They are your support units that can deploy and protect territory versus Ultralisks for example. Versus mutalisks you have many other tools in terran factory/starport arsenal.
You're abusing semantics. Mech right now doesn't use starport units to "fullfl weak spots" : it is all about amassing ravens, even more than during the worse HOTS time
For record's sake, what's your personal experience with mech in terms of lvl / number of games played ?
Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile
I think it's only because whole game became "more mobile", kinda, while mech is still kinda slow, except Cyclones. But cyclones with default 6 range might work I think.
I saw Bly vs TYTY game previous week, I thought zerg wins easily with ultras. But terran just comebacked with Liberators and bio, probably also widow mines. [/QUOTE]
What has a lib/bio game to do with mech viability right now exactly ?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 05:08 Lyyna wrote:
You're abusing semantics. Mech right now doesn't use starport units to "fullfl weak spots" : it is all about amassing ravens, even more than during the worse HOTS time
Probably the problem is that protoss rarely did HT / phoenixes versus terrans? it's time now to do that. Zergs can chain-fungal I think (but ravens can easily kill infestors), and maybe parasitic bombs might work too.
So many things come to mind, and i think Blizzard should do these changes from test map AND let the game stabilize for at least some months, untill everyone figures that some old unit combos might work well against new treats.
For record's sake, what's your personal experience with mech in terms of lvl / number of games played ?
Why it is important? Not everyone should be GML to be pro at this game. After so many years, and especially now with completely revamped and restarted "meta", there are no "100% guaranteed" statements.
Yes, I do a lot of theorycraft, and some things might not work in real game. But you even didn't try to do anything in game, instead you only complain after being defeated by that "OP" unit combination.
What has a lib/bio game to do with mech viability right now exactly ?
Sorry it was answer to other guy in this thread. I wanted to say that the only mobile things in terran's mech arsenal are banshees, liberators (kinda), hellions and cyclones. Why you call it not viable?
|
On November 30 2016 05:11 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:08 Lyyna wrote:
You're abusing semantics. Mech right now doesn't use starport units to "fullfl weak spots" : it is all about amassing ravens, even more than during the worse HOTS time Probably the problem is that protoss rarely did HT / phoenixes versus terrans? it's time now to do that. Zergs can chain-fungal I think (but ravens can easily kill infestors), and maybe parasitic bombs might work too. So many things come to mind, and i think Blizzard should do these changes from test map AND let the game stabilize for at least some months, untill everyone figures that some old unit combos might work well against new treats.
What does that even mean? How is protoss HT / phoenix related to mech right now ?
On November 30 2016 05:11 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +For record's sake, what's your personal experience with mech in terms of lvl / number of games played ? Why it is important? Not everyone should be GML to be pro at this game. After so many years, and especially now with completely revamped and restarted "meta", there are no "100% guaranteed" statements. Yes, I do a lot of theorycraft, and some things might not work in real game. But you even didn't try to do anything in game, instead you only complain after being defeated by that "OP" unit combination.
Theorycrafting is fine when you have a basic knowledge of what you're talking about. You apparently don't play mech (do you actually play terran , judging from your icon ?), and yet you think your opinion has a more solid basis than actual mech player' ?
On November 30 2016 05:11 Existor wrote:
Sorry it was answer to other guy in this thread. I wanted to say that the only mobile things in terran's mech arsenal are banshees, liberators (kinda), hellions and cyclones. Why you call it not viable?
Fair enough . The main reason i call it not viable, and this is shared by other mech players, is mostly about TvZ : hydra/viper is almost unbeatable, and overall, all 3 match-ups in the lategame relies on getting mass ravens. Boring, and relying on the stupid missile
|
Thermal Lance damage increased from 12 to 12 + 4 vs Light.
There is something seriously wrong with Blizzard's approach to Protoss' design.
Protoss is the powerhouse race. This means few-in-number, but packs-a-punch. It doesn't mean 3-5 units to rule (or lose) every single battle.
I don't know if they'll ever make a gateway unit comparable to marines / lings / hydras, but it's what Protoss really needs. Something to stabilize the early- and mid- game so that Protoss can reach the late-game with relative stability. Meanwhile, things like PO and disruptors need to be scaled back so that there are opportunities for opponents to attack and the game is less instantly-punishing of single mistakes.
A game between equal opponents should be a back and forth of poking and prodding. Peeling off small victories (and losses) everywhere across the map until a victory finally emerges: bloodied but alive.
Instead we have boomcraft. Inspired by Michael Bay.
|
On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Show nested quote +Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well
because he see a "protoss buff" and like to whine. its always the same with that topic. Maybe then terrans have to counter colossus with vikings, like protoss have to counter liberator with tempest at some point.
|
omg collossus buff. I don't know what to say, tvp will be so hard
|
The original post has been removed
Maybe there is something wrong
From the screenshot it does look like an official post?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
What does that even mean? How is protoss HT / phoenix related to mech right now ?
You talked about ravens and I immediately thought about possible protoss counters to mass ravens.
Theorycrafting is fine when you have a basic knowledge of what you're talking about. You apparently don't play mech (do you actually play terran , judging from your icon ?), and yet you think your opinion has a more solid basis than actual mech player' ?
Because I really don't understand that making statements without of at least month of testing with new changes. You are not giving it a try even.
is mostly about TvZ : hydra/viper is almost unbeatable
Why?
• battlecruisers (and sky-terran) don't work vs that combination? battlecruisers have huge amount of armor (shared from mech Armor upgrade) to hold versus high-atk-speed Hydralisks, they can snipe vipers with yamatos.
• vikings still snipe vipers well
• again, seeker missiles work fine vs both and PDD can block hydralisk shots and can;'t be abducted cause it's building, as I remember
• versus early hydralisk attacks there are siege tanks. In late game vipers are supposed to counter siege tanks, otherwise zergs are doomed vs mech.
|
On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Show nested quote +Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well
I hope you aren't serious.
On November 30 2016 05:23 NutriaKaiN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well because he see a "protoss buff" and like to whine. its always the same with that topic. Maybe then terrans have to counter colossus with vikings, like protoss have to counter liberator with tempest at some point.
because that's totally not what terrans are doing right now.
|
On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Show nested quote +Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well
man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^
|
On November 30 2016 05:32 Twine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^
I don't know. rushing BCs on 3 bases to counter collossi seems like a good answer to me. 
|
On November 30 2016 05:27 Existor wrote:Why? • battlecruisers (and sky-terran) don't work vs that combination? battlecruisers have huge amount of armor (shared from mech Armor upgrade) to hold versus high-atk-speed Hydralisks, they can snipe vipers with yamatos. • vikings still snipe vipers well • again, seeker missiles work fine vs both and PDD can block hydralisk shots and can;'t be abducted cause it's building, as I remember • versus early hydralisk attacks there are siege tanks. In late game vipers are supposed to counter siege tanks, otherwise zergs are doomed vs mech.
Rofl OK you clearly have no clue about how terran works, BCs get adbucted and you insta lose 400 300, vikings can snipe vipers but try sniping vipers underneath spores(+ they can get grabbed)
who the hell would abduct a PDD?
Please just play the game instead of just theorycrafting and you'd know most of your statement are not making any sense in game
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^
See. You already doing statement that none of my words actually work in game. You even didn't try that. It is of course easier to whine about balance and OP thing rather than try to figure what can work vs X and Y.
I hope you aren't serious.
And you are? I'd prefer to do a full discussion rather than complains like "that doesn't work, you're bronze trash" instead of something constructive like "that doesn't work because X, Y and Z reasons"
|
On November 30 2016 05:32 Twine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:50 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:44 Topin wrote:
i cant believe that buff to the colossi. I think buff will be reduced to +2 cause colossies counter well hydralisks even now, with zealots and other stuff. Especially with new chargelots (that have 8 damage on charge and faster speed so harder to kite by hydras). Hey, colossi should deal with mid game hydra comps better now. I love when they balance the game without taking other matchups into consideration #riptvp rip tvp? Why? * terrans still have vikings versus colossies * 250mm thors can annihilate colossies * widow mines do bonus dmg vs shields * ghosts are still viable * battlecruisers can't be feedbacked and can yamato colossies * buffed ravens work well vs protoss spam * cyclones counter stalkers super well man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^
wow welcome in the world of spellcasters, how many spells protoss need to use? blink, forcefield, guardianshield, target vikings, its fair enough when you have to do more then only split your army. raven spells? wtf? :D you dont have all off this, its possible plays, not all needed.
|
I hope they remove the upgrade for Neural Parasite, so that it can be a viable option when dealing with t3 units, especially carrier/colossus now that colossus is potentially seeing a buff.
|
The source link doesn't work
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Rofl OK you clearly have no clue about how terran works, BCs get adbucted and you insta lose 400 300, vikings can snipe vipers but try sniping vipers underneath spores(+ they can get grabbed)
1) BC can warp away instantly when abducted
2) what a terran will fight versus zerg near his spores? If zerg turtled in one area, it means some places are undefended.
3) Vikings have good range to shoot at vipers and flee away without risking to be abducted.
Please just play the game instead of just theorycrafting and you'd know most of your statement are not making any sense in game
Say that to yourself. let the game stabilize and evolve new metas instead of complaining that terran mech don't work. it's only 1.5 weeks since rework patch.
|
|
|
On November 30 2016 05:35 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^ See. You already doing statement that none of my words actually work in game. You even didn't try that. It is of course easier to whine about balance and OP thing rather than try to figure what can work vs X and Y. And you are? I'd prefer to do a full discussion rather than complains like "that doesn't work, you're bronze trash" instead of something constructive like "that doesn't work because X, Y and Z reasons"
Problem in your vision is that these things have been tried, before and after the patch. To take your last big post ..
• battlecruisers (and sky-terran) don't work vs that combination? battlecruisers have huge amount of armor (shared from mech Armor upgrade) to hold versus high-atk-speed Hydralisks, they can snipe vipers with yamatos.
=> Battlecruisers are fine .. once you get 8+ of them, alongside 10+ ravens. Before that, what exactly prevent the zerg from abducting them above his 30 hydras one by one and killing them .
• vikings still snipe vipers well
=> Due to the vikings' prjectile speed and the way focus fire can be done, you can't snipe the vipers before he can land clouds / abducts. And vikings are countered by making even more vipers, forcing you to either focus fire and waste shots, or pray that the auto targeting doesn't leave them all injured but alive.
• again, seeker missiles work fine vs both and PDD can block hydralisk shots and can;'t be abducted cause it's building, as I remember
=> Ravens are expensive, very easy to abduct, and as several people said, mech is again over reliant on the seeker missile and its new retarded uppgrade, which is the only fine saving mech lategame again.
• versus early hydralisk attacks there are siege tanks. In late game vipers are supposed to counter siege tanks, otherwise zergs are doomed vs mech.
=> That one is very dubious, zerg has been able to beat mech even before vipers were in the game. And even after that, it has stayed doable, with other options, vipers simply being the easiest.
Again, theorycrafting is fine, but doesn't replace having thousands of mech games experience, including dozens since the patch.
|
On November 30 2016 05:35 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^ See. You already doing statement that none of my words actually work in game. You even didn't try that. It is of course easier to whine about balance and OP thing rather than try to figure what can work vs X and Y. And you are? I'd prefer to do a full discussion rather than complains like "that doesn't work, you're bronze trash" instead of something constructive like "that doesn't work because X, Y and Z reasons"
I'd like to have a serious discussion too but when you think BCs, thors and ravens are a good answer to collossi I'm not sure it's worth it trying to convince you that they're not.
|
On November 30 2016 05:27 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +What does that even mean? How is protoss HT / phoenix related to mech right now ? You talked about ravens and I immediately thought about possible protoss counters to mass ravens. Show nested quote +Theorycrafting is fine when you have a basic knowledge of what you're talking about. You apparently don't play mech (do you actually play terran , judging from your icon ?), and yet you think your opinion has a more solid basis than actual mech player' ? Because I really don't understand that making statements without of at least month of testing with new changes. You are not giving it a try even. Why? • battlecruisers (and sky-terran) don't work vs that combination? battlecruisers have huge amount of armor (shared from mech Armor upgrade) to hold versus high-atk-speed Hydralisks, they can snipe vipers with yamatos. • vikings still snipe vipers well • again, seeker missiles work fine vs both and PDD can block hydralisk shots and can;'t be abducted cause it's building, as I remember • versus early hydralisk attacks there are siege tanks. In late game vipers are supposed to counter siege tanks, otherwise zergs are doomed vs mech.
you are trying way to hard to shit on any mech buffs and saying that mech is fine and its clear you dont know what you are talking about.
battlecruisers - can be abducted and sniped or parasitc bombed with there slow speed can fuck a terran unless you want to tp out which make you have one less unit.but mostly abducted screws you.
while yes viking can snipe vipers parastic bomb out ranges viking and with any micro you can pull the vikings into you hyrdas and heal vipers with queens
you seem to for get that you can add other units in to tank for the hydras like roachs even enough lings will do (no advised but can work)
I mean i get it if you hate terran but you have like 10 comments in this thread trying you balls off to argue that mech is fine and again you clearly dont have a clue only playing it from one side.
also Im not even going to get into the thing you are talking about with tvp and mech tvp just no not even going to waste my time on that one plz just stop you are starting to look silly.
|
On November 30 2016 05:38 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +Rofl OK you clearly have no clue about how terran works, BCs get adbucted and you insta lose 400 300, vikings can snipe vipers but try sniping vipers underneath spores(+ they can get grabbed) 1) BC can warp away instantly when abducted 2) what a terran will fight versus zerg near his spores? If zerg turtled in one area, it means some places are undefended. 3) Vikings have good range to shoot at vipers and flee away without risking to be abducted.
1) Yes, and then you are keeping the BCs out of the frontline for the next 2 minutes until warp recharges . . . ?
2) Because any competent zerg will have the control of most of the map, and the terran has to fight lategame to push him back and get his last expands
3) You have never played the vikings vs vipers scenario, right ???????? Vikings vs Vipers is always a losing fight for the terran vs a half competent zerg. As mentioned in my previous post, the way vikings's projectile and auto targeting / focus fire works, the terran can't efficiently trade here without god-like viking fire spreading
|
On November 30 2016 05:41 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:35 Existor wrote:man, just using little stars at the beginning of each affirmation doesn't make your statement true. As said above, its nice to theorycraft but have fun kiting colossi with vikings while burrowing widow mines, emping protoss army and spamming ravens spells lol. Also regarding the thor 250mm who's supposed to "annihilate" colossies, I'm not quite sure dude ^^ See. You already doing statement that none of my words actually work in game. You even didn't try that. It is of course easier to whine about balance and OP thing rather than try to figure what can work vs X and Y. I hope you aren't serious. And you are? I'd prefer to do a full discussion rather than complains like "that doesn't work, you're bronze trash" instead of something constructive like "that doesn't work because X, Y and Z reasons" Problem in your vision is that these things have been tried, before and after the patch. To take your last big post .. • battlecruisers (and sky-terran) don't work vs that combination? battlecruisers have huge amount of armor (shared from mech Armor upgrade) to hold versus high-atk-speed Hydralisks, they can snipe vipers with yamatos. => Battlecruisers are fine .. once you get 8+ of them, alongside 10+ ravens. Before that, what exactly prevent the zerg from abducting them above his 30 hydras one by one and killing them . • vikings still snipe vipers well => Due to the vikings' prjectile speed and the way focus fire can be done, you can't snipe the vipers before he can land clouds / abducts. And vikings are countered by making even more vipers, forcing you to either focus fire and waste shots, or pray that the auto targeting doesn't leave them all injured but alive. • again, seeker missiles work fine vs both and PDD can block hydralisk shots and can;'t be abducted cause it's building, as I remember => Ravens are expensive, very easy to abduct, and as several people said, mech is again over reliant on the seeker missile and its new retarded uppgrade, which is the only fine saving mech lategame again. • versus early hydralisk attacks there are siege tanks. In late game vipers are supposed to counter siege tanks, otherwise zergs are doomed vs mech. => That one is very dubious, zerg has been able to beat mech even before vipers were in the game. And even after that, it has stayed doable, with other options, vipers simply being the easiest. Again, theorycrafting is fine, but doesn't replace having thousands of mech games experience, including dozens since the patch.
you beat me to it ROFL
|
On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
but muh tanklines and endless turtling and mass raven O:
|
On November 30 2016 05:38 Existor wrote:
3) Vikings have good range to shoot at vipers and flee away without risking to be abducted.
no they don't
vikings have 9 range, abduct has 9 range.
|
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again.
Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots.
|
On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots.
I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 05:55 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots. I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill
Probably blizzard is tired of everyone is whining about hydralisks and buffed their protoss counter? It's only versus light, meaning only marines, lings, hydras, zealots and adepts will be affected (I listed those who MAY confront colossies most often).
In my opinion such buffs are just to encourage players finally do RIGHT counter units instead of talking about how hydra is op.
|
On November 30 2016 05:03 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile
Doesn't seem like Gumiho is, whihc is a good sign.
|
On November 30 2016 06:01 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:55 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots. I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill Probably blizzard is tired of everyone is whining about hydralisks and buffed their protoss counter? It's only versus light, meaning only marines, lings, hydras, zealots and adepts will be affected (I listed those who MAY confront colossies most often). In my opinion such buffs are just to encourage players finally do RIGHT counter units instead of talking about how hydra is op.
Or you know...nerf hydras...doesn't have to be a nerf compared to 3.7
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 06:03 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:01 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:55 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots. I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill Probably blizzard is tired of everyone is whining about hydralisks and buffed their protoss counter? It's only versus light, meaning only marines, lings, hydras, zealots and adepts will be affected (I listed those who MAY confront colossies most often). In my opinion such buffs are just to encourage players finally do RIGHT counter units instead of talking about how hydra is op. Or you know...nerf hydras...doesn't have to be a nerf compared to 3.7
I'd prefer buffing everything around rather than nerfing hydras.
|
On November 30 2016 06:02 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 05:03 Lyyna wrote:On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile Doesn't seem like Gumiho is, whihc is a good sign.
I've heard he has a few nice games floating around but couldn't find any. Do you know where i could find some ?
The only one i managed to get a quick look at was him basically destroying a zerg with a totally unopposed push pre-vipers
|
On November 30 2016 06:05 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:03 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 06:01 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:55 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots. I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill Probably blizzard is tired of everyone is whining about hydralisks and buffed their protoss counter? It's only versus light, meaning only marines, lings, hydras, zealots and adepts will be affected (I listed those who MAY confront colossies most often). In my opinion such buffs are just to encourage players finally do RIGHT counter units instead of talking about how hydra is op. Or you know...nerf hydras...doesn't have to be a nerf compared to 3.7 I'd prefer buffing everything around rather than nerfing hydras.
which would result in colossi coming back...
|
for me playing at 125 APM in Diamond i find Mech to be weak. However, the buff to the Cyclone should help my mech play.
|
lol why so many players complain about colossus buff? when was the last time you seen a protoss on ladder. protoss is underpowered and underrepresented on ladder they desperatly need a buff. zerg comps can fight protoss head on with hydra comps now where before you had to outmaneuver the protoss. and protoss still has shit dps with ground to air so lybs are still ridiculously overpowered and useless tempest vs ground make it impossible to enter a sieged position without getting shredded. And patch only been live for a short bit once builds get refined the abuse will begin and the sad part is there isnt enough protoss to cry about balance like terrans or zergs do R.I.P
|
On November 30 2016 06:05 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:03 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 06:01 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:55 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 05:53 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 05:50 ArtyK wrote:
One of the main reasons i came back to sc2 was LotV, and the fact that the worst designed unit after the SH wasn't viable anymore.
Now they want to see mass amove deathball again?
I know this is just a test map but if coloss ever come back as a staple in PvX i'll stop playing again. Meh? Now there are a lot more tools versus colossies in lotv, than in hots. I didn't say this buff would push it back to the top, but the simple fact that they're trying makes me ill Probably blizzard is tired of everyone is whining about hydralisks and buffed their protoss counter? It's only versus light, meaning only marines, lings, hydras, zealots and adepts will be affected (I listed those who MAY confront colossies most often). In my opinion such buffs are just to encourage players finally do RIGHT counter units instead of talking about how hydra is op. Or you know...nerf hydras...doesn't have to be a nerf compared to 3.7 I'd prefer buffing everything around rather than nerfing hydras.
If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state?
|
On November 30 2016 06:06 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:02 swissman777 wrote:On November 30 2016 05:03 Lyyna wrote:On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile Doesn't seem like Gumiho is, whihc is a good sign. I've heard he has a few nice games floating around but couldn't find any. Do you know where i could find some ? The only one i managed to get a quick look at was him basically destroying a zerg with a totally unopposed push pre-vipers
Those are the ones I saw, but since historically mech was viable in TvZ, I am not too worried about that. The question is TvP...
|
On November 30 2016 06:08 SwiftRH wrote:
lol why so many players complain about colossus buff? when was the last time you seen a protoss on ladder. protoss is underpowered and underrepresented on ladder they desperatly need a buff.
ya, i think u r right.
|
On November 30 2016 06:08 SwiftRH wrote:
lol why so many players complain about colossus buff? when was the last time you seen a protoss on ladder. protoss is underpowered and underrepresented on ladder they desperatly need a buff. zerg comps can fight protoss head on with hydra comps now where before you had to outmaneuver the protoss. and protoss still has shit dps with ground to air so lybs are still ridiculously overpowered and useless tempest vs ground make it impossible to enter a sieged position without getting shredded. And patch only been live for a short bit once builds get refined the abuse will begin and the sad part is there isnt enough protoss to cry about balance like terrans or zergs do R.I.P
good thing you're here to cry then
the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular
...again though...this is just a test map
|
They can buff whatever they want just remove skytoss 
|
On November 30 2016 06:10 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:06 Lyyna wrote:On November 30 2016 06:02 swissman777 wrote:On November 30 2016 05:03 Lyyna wrote:On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing Every mech player is struggling super hard and openly saying it but hey, mech stronk right now. Litterally the only thing savig mech is the new retarded seeker missile Doesn't seem like Gumiho is, whihc is a good sign. I've heard he has a few nice games floating around but couldn't find any. Do you know where i could find some ? The only one i managed to get a quick look at was him basically destroying a zerg with a totally unopposed push pre-vipers Those are the ones I saw, but since historically mech was viable in TvZ, I am not too worried about that. The question is TvP...
Sadly mech TvZ right now is in a very, very bad spot following the hydras nerf, to the point no competent zerg should lose after vipers hit the field. TvP is a bit ambiguous, mech is overall stronger but some hard counters remains, and carriers being what they are now...
The new missile uppgrade kinda saves the deal, but it keeps pigeonholing mech into the "turtle into raven" playstyle that is plaguing it since WoL.
The map pool doesn't help, especially with the new eco, which was a huge blow to mech.
It's interesting to see that Blizzard over the years has been consistently very good at one thing : making sure every time they talked about making mech a better option, that they instead, more or less indirectly, buried it even deeper, somehow.
|
I always thought that additional damage vs light would make some sense for collosi - but combined with lower dmg against anything else.
I really don't enjoy playing with collosi and they already seem to be coming back to the meta game to some extend... I don't like this direction at all - I would be ok with a buff to pretty much any core Protoss unit but the collossus.
|
If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state?
lol it got unbalanced when they made hydras imba
the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular
colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units
good thing you're here to cry then
somone has too. its kinda pointless since most protoss lost their passion.
|
On November 30 2016 06:21 SwiftRH wrote:Show nested quote +If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state? lol it got unbalanced when they made hydras imba Show nested quote +the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units somone has too. its kinda pointless since most protoss lost their passion.
passion =/= unconstructive feedback
protoss needs something? Buff anything but the coloss and i'll be happy
|
we are coming back to HOTS ones again :D
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units
Adepts?
|
Those changes are bandaids without any imagination and a will to push the game forward.
|
What happened to that reaper change they were looking at?
|
On November 30 2016 06:08 SwiftRH wrote:
lol why so many players complain about colossus buff? when was the last time you seen a protoss on ladder. protoss is underpowered and underrepresented on ladder they desperatly need a buff. zerg comps can fight protoss head on with hydra comps now where before you had to outmaneuver the protoss. and protoss still has shit dps with ground to air so lybs are still ridiculously overpowered and useless tempest vs ground make it impossible to enter a sieged position without getting shredded. And patch only been live for a short bit once builds get refined the abuse will begin and the sad part is there isnt enough protoss to cry about balance like terrans or zergs do R.I.P
how can you play protoss and look at your self in the mirror ? Thats why you dont see protoss on ladder anymore ppl woke up from a dream and started playing real races
Bonus m*me: They can buff anything else than collo
|
On November 30 2016 06:27 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units Adepts?
Adepts suck without their ability. They get kited to death versus MMM, could never approach tanks, and just die to anything zerg at all.
Their ability allows them to close the range, to surround units (preventing escape), and to always engage in a favorable position. Without a favorable position, adepts are too slow and too low damage to do anything remotely good.
In fact, you can try it out. Take 5 minutes to remove shade from the command card for adepts in an extension mod and play versus a friend. See how relevant they are to ... anything ... then.
Personally, I'd love an adept without an ability, but I doubt we'll ever see it.
|
What was the effect of the Cyclone (pre-patch) that it was needing to be changed?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 06:37 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:27 Existor wrote:colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units Adepts? Adepts suck without their ability. They get kited to death versus MMM, could never approach tanks, and just die to anything zerg at all. Their ability allows them to close the range, to surround units (preventing escape), and to always engage in a favorable position. Without a favorable position, adepts are too slow and too low damage to do anything remotely good. In fact, you can try it out. Take 5 minutes to remove shade from the command card for adepts in an extension mod and play versus a friend. See how relevant they are to ... anything ... then. Personally, I'd love an adept without an ability, but I doubt we'll ever see it.
On other side, adepts can sometimes harass better (a lot) than zealots. Zealots with charge upgrade can annihilate hydralisks super well.
|
On November 30 2016 06:40 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:37 Edowyth wrote:On November 30 2016 06:27 Existor wrote:colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units Adepts? Adepts suck without their ability. They get kited to death versus MMM, could never approach tanks, and just die to anything zerg at all. Their ability allows them to close the range, to surround units (preventing escape), and to always engage in a favorable position. Without a favorable position, adepts are too slow and too low damage to do anything remotely good. In fact, you can try it out. Take 5 minutes to remove shade from the command card for adepts in an extension mod and play versus a friend. See how relevant they are to ... anything ... then. Personally, I'd love an adept without an ability, but I doubt we'll ever see it. On other side, adepts can sometimes harass better (a lot) than zealots. Zealots with charge upgrade can annihilate hydralisks super well.
- Protoss didn't need yet another dedicated harassment unit.
- Zealots get wrecked if there's anything to stand in front of the hydras like ... banelings, lings, roaches, lurkers, broodlings, spines, spores, ... or paper airplanes
Nonetheless, Protoss still has too many abilities to manage. (or rather, too many high-maintenance abilities)
|
If they want to save mech at least buff the damage on the cyclone anti air and make it autocast
|
byun made a valid point there :/
|
On November 30 2016 06:27 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units Adepts?
haha lol adepts dont have an ability o wait..... even if they did not have an ability once stim or or any zerg units besides zerglings enter the game they dont trade effectively
|
|
|
Russian Federation421 Posts
Some times I don't understand people. 1 year of whining about adepts and when they're buffing an alternative to them people whine again. Colossus isn't some devil spawn straight from hell, it's a simple aoe attack unit. Why don't you just give the game a chance and try to enjoy it in its current state whatever that is?
|
Theese changes got posted too early. You can delete the thread
Blizzard:
Hey everyone!
We accidentally jumped the gun here and posted this early. While we are always exploring ways to make the game better, these specific changes are still being thought out and may be tried out at a later date. Apologies for any confusion.
|
Good to know!
Now I have to wonder if the community reactions will influence their decision .
|
well it was awkward when u cant fight effectivly with double robo colosus production vs hydra/lurker/roach
btw without thermal lance hydra outranges colosus
good they are making slight buff for it
|
404 not found? i guess they realize it's not a good idea already.
|
On November 30 2016 07:12 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
well it was awkward when u cant fight effectivly with double robo colosus production vs hydra/lurker/roach
btw without thermal lance hydra outranges colosus
good they are making slight buff for it
or maybe not, while they are thinking about it, these changes were posted too early and are not final
updated the OP
|
On November 30 2016 07:14 Musicus wrote:
updated the OP
Ah, you don't have to quote me. You can just put the link with his text quoted. :D Would be easier for those coming to the thread than linking through to reddit.
|
|
|
On November 30 2016 07:08 Ingvar wrote:
Some times I don't understand people. 1 year of whining about adepts and when they're buffing an alternative to them people whine again. Colossus isn't some devil spawn straight from hell, it's a simple aoe attack unit. Why don't you just give the game a chance and try to enjoy it in its current state whatever that is?
I didn't whine about adepts but collossus play always leads to deathball play with both players massing an army and clashing in the middle of the map in 1 deciding fight.
Do you really prefer collossus turtle play over the harass-heavy mass gateway style we saw in the first half of the year?
|
I agree with ByuN, buff the anti air ability too, 160 over 14 seconds is not enough.
|
Mech will never be good because the new economy system just flat out doesn't lend itself well to mech play. By the time a mech player has built the required infrastructure to support a large mid - late game mech army a Zerg player will be on 6 + hatcheries fielding Vipers and mass aerial armies.
It's never going to be good as long as resources deplete quickly and force a mech player to spread himself very thin to defend his expansions which pretty much violates the core tenet of mech play, which is a very slow macro defensive style with fast raider units (banshee, vulture, hellion) with vultures/spider mines really allowing mech to have a mobile anti ground force (Widow mines are too slow and Hellions are horrible combat units) alongside Goliaths being mobile anti air (something Thors can never be)
Hopefully by the end of this massive cluster fuck of a patch factory units will at the very least be viable support units to bio armies, I personally think mech sucks to play against and to watch and the golden age of Zerg vs Terran was watching Ling/Bane/Muta against MMM + Siege Tank lines.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 30 2016 07:37 scoo2r wrote:
I agree with ByuN, buff the anti air ability too, 160 over 14 seconds is not enough.
But why? Terran mech have a lot of other anti-air tools. This ability is strictly for chasing oracles / phoenixes / overlords / medivacs / prizms / other harass units. Most harass units have less than 160 hp
|
On November 30 2016 07:14 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 07:12 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
well it was awkward when u cant fight effectivly with double robo colosus production vs hydra/lurker/roach
btw without thermal lance hydra outranges colosus
good they are making slight buff for it or maybe not, while they are thinking about it, these changes were posted too early and are not final updated the OP
hope they gonna buff colosus even more a bit +4 light affects PvT harder than PvZ, i think it needs a bit more to buff in order to make a big influence on dealing with hydras for example
|
there goes my 25% winrate vs protoss. perhaps 10% now? dis is disgusting. i lost 600 mmr after this patch. thats no joke.
|
really feels like this approach is a few steps back, rather than forward in the right direction
|
On November 30 2016 06:22 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:21 SwiftRH wrote:If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state? lol it got unbalanced when they made hydras imba the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units
good thing you're here to cry then
somone has too. its kinda pointless since most protoss lost their passion. passion =/= unconstructive feedback protoss needs something? Buff anything but the coloss and i'll be happy
well, not everyone shares your opinion, if you dont like the change, dont play the game.
It's as simple as that.
|
On November 30 2016 07:39 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 07:37 scoo2r wrote:
I agree with ByuN, buff the anti air ability too, 160 over 14 seconds is not enough. But why? Terran mech have a lot of other anti-air tools. This ability is strictly for chasing oracles / phoenixes / overlords / medivacs / prizms / other harass units. Most harass units have less than 160 hp
are you really still at it wow? plz list all the mech anti air ability and units plz. ill help cyclone- you need to click on the unit and chase it down for 14 sec to kill the unit which gives them time to run away over cliffs and get away. mines a unit that your opponent has to not be paying attention to lose there units too. and last thor do you really think you can get a thor out in time for an oracle plz.
just stop you are making yourself look bad but ill even give you starport units viking -warp prism, oracles, phoenix, overlords(with speed) bootsed medivacs are all faster than vikings and again your opponent has to not be paying attention to lose them. ravens- ROFL drop your auto turret and unless they are under it and again are not paying attention shouldn't lose there units. libs- very little range and dmg nerf to light and little to nothign vs armor. last BCs lol you going to get a bc out in time for an oracle.
and for late game there are thing like vipers that counter the air and ground and carriers that counter everything but maybe bcs but havent seen/played that fight enough to know yet.
mech is not good stop acting like it is and stop acting you know what you are talking about. stop acting like your thoerycrafting is applyable to real in game situations
|
On November 30 2016 08:32 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:22 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 06:21 SwiftRH wrote:If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state? lol it got unbalanced when they made hydras imba the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units
good thing you're here to cry then
somone has too. its kinda pointless since most protoss lost their passion. passion =/= unconstructive feedback protoss needs something? Buff anything but the coloss and i'll be happy well, not everyone shares your opinion, if you dont like the change, dont play the game. It's as simple as that.
Would the Colossus be strong even if they were back in their original forms? Corruptors are better, Vipers are still just as much of a soft counter to them as they always were, and now super Hydralisks can both retreat and attack much more safe and from a bigger concave.
|
On November 30 2016 08:32 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 06:22 ArtyK wrote:On November 30 2016 06:21 SwiftRH wrote:If it was only PvZ that would make sense, but with hydras also being problematic in TvZ a hydra nerf the cleanest solution. Otherwise you risk unbalancing all the match-ups. Why exactly do you insist on hydras being in their buffed state? lol it got unbalanced when they made hydras imba the problem isn't that they're buffing toss, it's that they're buffing this unit in particular colo underused tbh protoss needs something in the midgame and toss needs more amove potential. too many ability units
good thing you're here to cry then
somone has too. its kinda pointless since most protoss lost their passion. passion =/= unconstructive feedback protoss needs something? Buff anything but the coloss and i'll be happy well, not everyone shares your opinion, if you dont like the change, dont play the game. It's as simple as that.
Yeah well the change isn't live, and even if it was we can't guess yet if colossi will be standard again, so i'm playing this game still :p
I will only really have a problem if this goes back to wol style protoss deathballs, and you all know how fun that was...
|
|
|
They should give up in making Balance changes once and for all.
Not making them does not please people, making them does not make people happy. Making small changes gets outburst, making big changes get outburst, giving testmaps for 3 months and nobody plays them and on day one the changes go live...again outburst.
Just give up patching.
|
laz0rs are back on the menu boys
|
collosus buff yuck. I'd rather they do almost anything else to buff protoss. Such a boring unit.
|
Mechers will never be happy, so i say fix the turtle cancer and let the other players have fun, because playing against someone that just sits there massing defense is absolutely awful.
BTW, why is reaper grenade still in the game?
And why is music loud as hell in replays?
|
On November 30 2016 09:48 Clonester wrote:
They should give up in making Balance changes once and for all.
Not making them does not please people, making them does not make people happy. Making small changes gets outburst, making big changes get outburst, giving testmaps for 3 months and nobody plays them and on day one the changes go live...again outburst.
Just give up patching.
I wouldn't call the reaction to the patch an outburst. there may be some things slightly to strong but from watching streams and reading the forums the majority seems thinks the patch was pretty good overall.
|
Making colos stronger than hots with a ground army of adepts as a buffer. I don't even know what to say.
|
Remove Adept, and:
-buff Zealot and Stalker HP (around 20-25%)
-nerf Protoss AoE (around 20-25%)
This will make Protoss able to play early mid-game against all races (and be in-line with a more a traditional RTS gameplay), and takes away some of the NEED for AoE/ focus on spells (MOBA-like gameplay).
|
Terran is broken, the players are just a bunch of whiny little [beeps]. Same as Zergs in every expansion, except Terrans just quit the game when they didn't like balance changes in the past.
EDIT: By "Terran", I'm referring to mech-only players like Avilo. Bio players are fine, they learn to adapt and move on with life.
User was warned for this post
|
On November 30 2016 11:47 Advantageous wrote:
Terran is broken, the players are just a bunch of whiny little [beeps]. Same as Zergs in every expansion, except Terrans just quit the game when they didn't like balance changes in the past.
EDIT: By "Terran", I'm referring to mech-only players like Avilo. Bio players are fine, they learn to adapt and move on with life.
Bio players tend to be just as bad. When mass Marines can't counter something they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
|
Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however.
|
On November 30 2016 12:18 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 11:47 Advantageous wrote:
Terran is broken, the players are just a bunch of whiny little [beeps]. Same as Zergs in every expansion, except Terrans just quit the game when they didn't like balance changes in the past.
EDIT: By "Terran", I'm referring to mech-only players like Avilo. Bio players are fine, they learn to adapt and move on with life. Bio players tend to be just as bad. When mass Marines can't counter something they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
Protoss players are just as bad. when they can't 1a their deathball every game to victory they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
Zerg players are just as bad. when they can't drone to 70 blindly every game they whine non-stop until it gets changed.
/s
it's getting old.
|
Are they keeping SH/hydra/viper/burrow infestor in the game?
|
So they accidently jumped the gun. LOOOOOOOOOL
|
If I were in David Kim's shoes, I'd probably leave the current colossus dmg output as it is and experimented with increasing its base range instead 
|
On November 30 2016 15:10 avilo wrote:
Are they keeping SH/hydra/viper/burrow infestor in the game?
I'm very confident SHs won't stay in the game for long as they invalidate mech play atm and they said they want to make mech more viable.
not so sure about the other things..
|
Because people can be characterized by playing a certain faction of a video game
..
|
On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos.
I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings.
I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now.
|
It's actually hilarious.
Skytoss has been impossible to crack for z/t for years - they introduce an even more OP Carrier which literally has no answer when massed. PvZ is all about spamming pylons, cannons, and finding ways to survive into getting a cpl of carriers (mass adept into 2 gate phoenix into carrier for example).
Lotv ment to adress the deathball issue of protoss - which, somewhat succeeded, the immortal chargelot archon deathball was not as potent as the collosis storm stalker deathball and impossible to crack sentry/blink combos are not as common anymore. Now they want to buff collosus again?
Mech fucking sucks as a playstyle to watch/play against/do, it makes for slow games, for god knows what reason blizzard has (After listening to the community, consisting of mostly players with low apm/skill), put it in their head that they have to make this playstyle viable. If you want people to not have a good time playing/watching your game, sure.
They should make the game fun. None of the shit they are doing makes any sense. Their primary focus should be maximizing fun for everyone involved. This does not mean, giving a race a super fun harass unit but not giving the other races a FUN counter-play, as they have often done in the past, however. (oracle/adept/liberator might be fun to use , but dealing with it - even when quite possible and clearly balanced, simply gives hand/brain cancer)
It means looking at what SC2 does well and what attracts people to this game, and then expanding on it. The primary matchup in Sc2 has always been muta/ling/bio vs m&m/mine etc. Expand on this. Make it even better. Keep frantic fast gameplay and multitask with action on both sides and try to implement it in other matchups as well. Make a public statement that says Fuck mech.
Oh well, one can dream.
|
On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however.
If this is true, THEN WHY BUFF RAVEN OF ALL UNITS
|
On November 30 2016 18:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
Honestly all you need to do is watch Snute's stream for 20 or 30 minutes and see him hit a Terran who goes mech lol.
He explains the issue perfectly - and his play makes it obvious that he's right.
The mass hydra / viper / SH combo makes it impossible for Meching Terran to move out on the map and attack , ever.
So either you kill them before they get it - or you just get starved out while they fling thousands of SH at you picking off your shit slowly. It's not just OP though - it's horrendous for the game - the zerg really can't attack either - he can just roll up on your expos and fling free bugs at you while he mines out the map - (all of which - I'll add to toot my own horn ;D I pointed out would fucking happen if they went through with this ridiculous patch).
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz - and bio in tvz is imo worse off than before - even further amplifying the do horrendous damage with the first 2 mede drop or lose by a huge margin later.
Btw I hate mech - Call me a mech racist - I'd be totally ok with obliterating it completely - but the current state is just plain retarded - you can't have 2 shitty options - and even if they do decide to just keep buffing mech until it's viable and kill off bio - I gtd tons of Kor are gonna quit the game or change race - because honestly unless they redesign mech - being better mechanically at the game than your opponent is not a big advantage - having literally nothing to do for 12 hours or a day and being cool with playing 6 games in that time period is - however. If this is true, THEN WHY BUFF RAVEN OF ALL UNITS
Yeah, the worst thing they can do with mech, even worse then having it nonviable, is to have it be dependent on Ravens. We already know how shitty games of mass air and mass air casters can be.
|
"Carrier is OP", it's amazing what you can learn from this kind of thread..
|
On November 30 2016 18:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos. I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings. I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now.
Blizz should really overhaul the SH completely or this issue will keep popping up, it's either unplayable or op the way they designed it.
They should swap the neural and yank abilities of the Infestor and Viper to make yanking more difficult, adjust abilities if needed
(It looks ridiculous anyway, a skinny hovering thing that apparently can cling on to air to move (massive) units towards it)
|
Is a Colossus buff really the end of the world as many people make it seem to be?
I think it would be fine, would make toss a bit friendlier to play outside the top 5% of the playerbase. Also, it would bring into light how god-awful Vikings are currently and maybe we could get a buff to those so lategame terran could stand a chance.
|
On November 30 2016 07:08 Ingvar wrote:
Some times I don't understand people. 1 year of whining about adepts and when they're buffing an alternative to them people whine again. Colossus isn't some devil spawn straight from hell, it's a simple aoe attack unit. Why don't you just give the game a chance and try to enjoy it in its current state whatever that is?
that's right.
Those hypocrites that say "Buff anything but Collosi" were probably the same bunch that whines about adepts.
|
This patch marks the return of "safe free damage", that has always been, and will always be an extremely idiotic dynamic in this game.
We've all seen the game being plagued by units dealing free and safe damage", through free units or energy.
15 range tempest with relevation, HOTS SHs, vipers yanking 300/200 6 supply units with little risk, all these things are horrible for the game.
And now? Now the best build in TvZ is probably the raven rush to spam turrets in mineral lines to 2shot drones. Now we've got a 100/75 unit that spams free units, because DK felt it was a good idea to overbuff the SH to see "how things turn out". And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
|
On November 30 2016 22:31 JackONeill wrote:
And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
That's something else i'm not a fan of. Balance aside, i thought carriers are interesting because you have a decision in how to fight them: vikings and go in trying to kill the carriers directly, or libs, turrets mines to kill interceptors and starve the protoss out of minerals.
|
On November 30 2016 20:12 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 18:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing I need a cost effective way to deal with SHs doing free dmg to tank hellion armies and expos. I need a way not to die to Vipers pulling tanks and thors and decimating vikings. I'm not calling imba, but TvZ feels the most difficult right now. Blizz should really overhaul the SH completely or this issue will keep popping up, it's either unplayable or op the way they designed it. They should swap the neural and yank abilities of the Infestor and Viper to make yanking more difficult, adjust abilities if needed (It looks ridiculous anyway, a skinny hovering thing that apparently can cling on to air to move (massive) units towards it)
Yeah i have a bit of a fixation on the SH as a generator of free units that has very long range and good mobility. It probably can't be balanced to be both fair and a fun unit to watch and play.
|
On November 30 2016 22:31 JackONeill wrote:
This patch marks the return of "safe free damage", that has always been, and will always be an extremely idiotic dynamic in this game.
We've all seen the game being plagued by units dealing free and safe damage", through free units or energy.
15 range tempest with relevation, HOTS SHs, vipers yanking 300/200 6 supply units with little risk, all these things are horrible for the game.
And now? Now the best build in TvZ is probably the raven rush to spam turrets in mineral lines to 2shot drones. Now we've got a 100/75 unit that spams free units, because DK felt it was a good idea to overbuff the SH to see "how things turn out". And now we've got 5 minerals interceptors.
i agree with the over all spirit of your post re: Viper yank, however, i prefer to allow Blizzard the space to work out big changes during the off-season. Re: SH .. the volleys out of Siege Tank are free as well. If Blizz is experimenting right now then its the people playing in that IEM Qualifier who should really be angry. not us.
The IEM Qualifier was interesting to watch; the TvT between TY and Maru was incredible. people saying the game is horribly imbalanced are off base. The game might be somewhat imbalanced at this stage. Its not like any of the races has no chance at the top level of the game.
I've gone from Tier 1 Diamond to the top of Tier 3 Diamond with this new patch. I don't think 125 APM Diamond players like me are all that important though. If the patch means slow players like me who are slow to react take a negative ranking hit. whatever... i don't think its evidence DK is a bad designer... maybe i suck more than i thought i did and it was covered up by the original LotV design.
i've heard other non-pro Terran mech players whining and i don't think their whining is important either. To get Mech play used more at the top level of the game its importan to listen to the players at the top.
|
So, finally! The circle is complete.
-> make light units op (so that protoss can't handle them w/o splash)
-> introduce colossi
-> colossi are boring as fuck
-> nerf colossi to the ground (introduce gimick aoe unit instead that noone uses anyway)
-> overbuff light units (hydra) (?????????????????) so they melt everything
-> buff colossi
Another indication of DK's clear master plan. I have no doubt it was all planned from the start.
|
On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc.
Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems
|
On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems
Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back.
|
On December 01 2016 01:20 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back.
If the constant "action" of bio was what the RTS community wanted in SC2 for every game,SC2 would not be in the state that it is and BW would have been dead a long time ago.
If there's one thing we can put to bad is the idea that bio is more exciting then mech for the casual viewer. We have the numbers and they tell a different story.
Finally Blizz realized this through the massive exodus that happened with the promotion of bio only games. Face it, bio lovers are in a huge minority
|
On December 01 2016 01:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 01:20 EatingBomber wrote:On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back. If the constant "action" of bio was what the RTS community wanted in SC2 for every game,SC2 would not be in the state that it is and BW would have been dead a long time ago. If there's one thing we can put to bad is the idea that bio is more exciting then mech for the casual viewer. We have the numbers and they tell a different story. Finally Blizz realized this through the massive exodus that happened with the promotion of bio only games. Face it, bio lovers are in a huge minority
You are absolutely wrong. The most epic game SC2 have ever produced has always been muta ling bane vs bio.
While there are nice mech games out there, such as forgg vs life, it is the exception. Almost all mech games towards the end of hots, and especially in the EU scene, were complete abuse of cost efficient units like the raven/bc. pdd spam + mass turtle.
The cyclone style which was rising to popularity right before this patch, was also pure cancer. The Terran player had the rax for vision, and as long as they baby sitted the cyclones they could just scan + kill units indefinitely as they move commanded back. I admit that I am a zerg player, I can tell you, by playing 100's of games, that this process was never any 'fun' to me. Regardless of wether or not I could win games against it (I could and did), it just felt truely retarded, and mech has always felt that way when playing against it.
Action packed mech games, are a nice theory, but not reality. If you played high level Hots on EU ladder and ran into happy a million times who just spammed turrets, camped, and micro'ed his energy units till zerg was out of money, you'd agree.
You have to remember these games, there were loads of them at the end of hots.
I highly doubt bio lovers are in the minority, since every zerg player out there by definition enjoys bio more, since mech units are just completly not fun to play against. On top of that I bet anyone that doesn't actually play the game much prefers bio, when there are 3-4 things happening at the same time it really pushes the most out of players. That is more fun to watch than 100 turrets, tanks, vikings, ravens, all bunched up waiting for the other race to 'charge' in. Lol
I imagine the only people who prefer mech are diamond/low master terrans with little apm who want an easy time macro'ing/slow game.
|
On December 01 2016 01:42 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 01:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 01 2016 01:20 EatingBomber wrote:On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back. If the constant "action" of bio was what the RTS community wanted in SC2 for every game,SC2 would not be in the state that it is and BW would have been dead a long time ago. If there's one thing we can put to bad is the idea that bio is more exciting then mech for the casual viewer. We have the numbers and they tell a different story. Finally Blizz realized this through the massive exodus that happened with the promotion of bio only games. Face it, bio lovers are in a huge minority You are absolutely wrong. The most epic game SC2 have ever produced has always been muta ling bane vs bio. While there are nice mech games out there, such as forgg vs life, it is the exception. Almost all mech games towards the end of hots, and especially in the EU scene, were complete abuse of cost efficient units like the raven/bc. pdd spam + mass turtle. Action packed mech games, are a nice theory, but not reality. If you played high level Hots on EU ladder and ran into happy a million times who just spammed turrets, camped, and micro'ed his energy units till zerg was out of money, you'd agree. You have to remember these games, there were loads of them at the end of hots.
The games you talk about were hated by everyone, including mech players. That was mass air, mass air casters at that that created that horror, not mech. Blizz made mech rubbish that the only thing it was decent at was to ease an air transition.
The "good" mech games are the ones where you have actual mech wining or loosing the game without the turtle to mass air. Tank hellion viking has always created cool games, be it vs bio, roach hydra, etc. Air armies just suck in SC2, be they Ravens or BL-Inf or Tempests.
|
On November 30 2016 04:49 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 04:40 petro1987 wrote:
Still nothing about mech's viability... At least last cyclone's nerf was reverted. Mech is fine. * Want to harass with mobile units? Banshees, ravens, hellions. * Need anti-ground-light? Hellbats vs ling runby, and hellions to chase and kite. Widow mines also. * Need soft-anti-air with aoe damage? Liberators. Otherwise make thors, seeker missiles and battlecruisers. * Need to protect territories? Siege tanks, hellbats, widow mines, liberator zones, cruisers can warp-in to defend (last one will rarely occur but it's possible) * Need anti-mech? Ground vikings, siege tanks, thors, cyclones. * Need mobile anti-armored? Cyclones, siege tanks. * Need anti air-armored? Vikings, 2nd Thor mode. * Need burst aoe-damage that only mutas can escape? Seeker missiles that can chase up for 19 range. * Need to snipe core targets? Yamato cannons, vikings / 250mm thors / banshees * Need anti-ultralisk as mech? Siege tanks, banshees, liberation zones, thors, yamato cannons, mules (they fk ultralisk pathing late game), Raven turrets also breaking ultralisk pathing
I'm not sure it's all that useful to think up unit counters in a vacuum, there's also the question of timings and cost.
|
On December 01 2016 01:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 01:20 EatingBomber wrote:On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back. If the constant "action" of bio was what the RTS community wanted in SC2 for every game,SC2 would not be in the state that it is and BW would have been dead a long time ago. If there's one thing we can put to bad is the idea that bio is more exciting then mech for the casual viewer. We have the numbers and they tell a different story. Finally Blizz realized this through the massive exodus that happened with the promotion of bio only games. Face it, bio lovers are in a huge minority
Nonsense. SC2 declined for a variety of reasons besides the fact that Terran played mostly bio, which is minuscule(if it even is a factor, which iT isn't )compared to the much larger, external factors.
Furthermore, to suggest that mech in SC2 is even comparable to BW's mech is laughable. SC2's mech is one of the most boring, cancerous, and least taxing play style to both watch, and play against.
Fortunately, Zerg and Protoss have been given various tools to kill the tumour before it grows. Unfortunately, the mirror will not be spared.
|
New hotfix is up
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20752357659
Relevant balance change is that Siege Tank's Siege Damage vs non-armored now receives +4 (10%) from the Vehicle Weapon upgrade, up from +3. This aligns it with the general +10% rule for attack upgrades with other units. I'm not sure if the bonus damage vs armor attack upgrades got upped from +2 to +3 to also align with the +10% rule.
|
On December 01 2016 01:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 01:20 EatingBomber wrote:On December 01 2016 00:17 Lexender wrote:On November 30 2016 12:31 DomeGetta wrote:
This is why you don't see the Kor's doing mech in tvz
Korean players where the ones that created the mech meta in HotS, they where consistent with it playing pretty commonly and some players where even know mech players, like Flash, Gumiho, Bbyong, ForGG, etc. Saying that mech doesn't benefits from multitask and micro is the most stupid argument I've seen that somehow gets thrown around like its an absolute truth, see a ForGG game and tell me anybody can pull the same moves as the master of hellions did, its not as easy as it seems Or, you can watch FlaSh turtle with a million Turrets and tanks and fall asleep, or watch horrors like ByuL's final engagement against INnoVation on Coda, to understand why people don't want mech to come back. If the constant "action" of bio was what the RTS community wanted in SC2 for every game,SC2 would not be in the state that it is and BW would have been dead a long time ago. If there's one thing we can put to bad is the idea that bio is more exciting then mech for the casual viewer. We have the numbers and they tell a different story. Finally Blizz realized this through the massive exodus that happened with the promotion of bio only games. Face it, bio lovers are in a huge minority
i posted the #s. massive exodus LOL. that is great emo hyperbole.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/516753-firecakes-opinion-on-the-decline-of-starcraft-2?page=16#319
every game declines as it ages. the sea level of the entire RTS ocean is lowering. Blizzard RTSs including SC2 are the only boats able to float as the sea level plummets and the ice age is imminent. Considering how bad RTS is doing and the alternatives that have usurped the general player from their giant desktop PCs .. Blizzard has retained its customers better than any other RTS developer.
those are the #s that keep the full context of the marketplace and the consumers expanding base of choices in mind.
The #s indicate Blizzard is doing a great job with SC2 and Blizzard is the best RTS game maker in the world.
|
Bio lovers are a huge minority? All I see regarding mech "fixes" (gross) is from the same 8 people making constant posts and threads about how the most boring and turtle friendly style in the game should be made just as viable as a fun to watch and play against style.
Don't get me wrong, I understand Terran lack diversity and people get tired of MMMM all day, but making the worst style in the game viable when the game is already declining isn't the best thing to do at all. If you think viewership is low now, wait until we have 30 minute long mech TvT and cancer style mech ZvT where the whole map get's taken and Zerg can't attack into the tank lines and Terran can't unsiege the tank lines. Once tank mech into mass Ravens crept it's way into the master league level I straight up left the game for HOTS. It's not fun to play against, it's not fun to watch, it's hardly even fun to win when the games are 30 + minutes of chasing a flock of super strong energy units and trying to Nydus into small pockets of non tank lines.
Personally, I'm hoping for bio mech to become the new metagame. The Golden Age of Zerg vs Terran wasn't watching ForGG whip out the ever so random mech game at a high level, not by a long shot. It was watching Ling/Bane/Mutalisk vs Bio/Tank.
|
|
|
Looks like Cyclone is dead with the new patch.
|
Blizzard shouldn't be designing balance around a "Mech" schematic at all anyways, a Terran army should
be "BioMech". Make the reactor quadruple production after a certain upgrade.. No race squeaks by like Terran does anyways, solely relying on the player's super reflexes for kiting like crazy.
|
Russian Federation473 Posts
|
On December 02 2016 03:40 Ganseng wrote:
looks like fake actually
It's not fake. Blizzard devs already confirmed that it was posted early and it is not a finalized list of changes.
|
The colossus just needs to be scrapped. Horrible unit design all-around: high ground vision and no unit collision on a siege unit? No wonder the damn thing encourages deathball gameplay.
If Protoss is struggling vs light, there are so many possibilities regarding how this may be addressed!
|
On December 01 2016 23:15 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Blizzard shouldn't be designing balance around a "Mech" schematic at all anyways, a Terran army should
be "BioMech". Make the reactor quadruple production after a certain upgrade.. No race squeaks by like Terran does anyways, solely relying on the player's super reflexes for kiting like crazy.
If Terran ground units had shared upgrades instead of factory sharing with starport, perhaps. Even though each race has five upgrades, the way Terran upgrades are distributed does not encourage biomech past early game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
