On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible.
I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard.
And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice.
We need change.
Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game?
SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us.
Well you're falling into the logical fallacy of authority and assuming I have no real experience when I have loads of game design experience, and I didn't downplay SC2 for years, I loved it for years and then tried to help change the direction when it went off course, but I'm going to ignore all of that for a second because it is all baseless assumptions.
So I pose to you this:
When Blizzard does something that significant amount of the community disagrees with it, then 6 months later Blizzard reverts to what the community originally asked, is that evidence that Blizzard is doing a good job or a bad one?
You can tell me how many ideas of mine they implemented months or years later:
As I stated, the design team has an inability to weed out bad ideas from good ones. This was the team that spent money and months of valuable time developing and testing the Warhound. That idea never should have left a designers head, it was horrendous in terms game design, indefensible.
Yet they are the professionals? By definition yes, because they are getting paid.
And I love Starcraft, that is why I take the time to criticize it.
And yes, I absolutely want to play it this way. We get a new design team or perhaps a community made mod lead by people who understand Starcraft 2, and maybe it has a chance. Or we can watch it sink.
Spitballing ideas on forums doesn't count as game design experience.
Bronze you are a f*cking genius you know that. Also the game has gotten to the hilarious point where I want unit and hero kill leaderboards.
That's my RTS experience. Maybe you should play it, it's fun, and then you can stop questioning me, who you don't know.
Judge ideas, not people.
I've followed game design for years, and I've designed several board games and competitive exercise games (some are quite complex) that are currently used in hospitals and therapeutic settings to help autistic children and troubled youths. That is my job.
Anyway, that is enough about me and my involvement in this thread, I'm done here so people can go back to the issues at hand. My apologies for helping to derail this thread.
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible.
I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard.
And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice.
We need change.
Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game?
SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us.
Wow an opisska post that I actually agree with. What is the world coming to.
Why? Maybe you can write it differently. I read "Everythings fine and this is the best SC2 has ever been".
On November 17 2016 11:55 loginn wrote: Sometimes I really wish I was a billionaire so that I could support all these tournaments. I'd be giving prize money like candies
i wouldnt mind giving a community based tourney a few bucks to add to the pot
Thanks for all the time, effort, and money that you have put towards your events over the years. Big or small, they have all been great fun to watch. As several others have said, even though it is a lil sad to have to scale down, it will not tamper the fun of it.
On November 17 2016 11:55 loginn wrote: Sometimes I really wish I was a billionaire so that I could support all these tournaments. I'd be giving prize money like candies
On November 17 2016 11:55 loginn wrote: Sometimes I really wish I was a billionaire so that I could support all these tournaments. I'd be giving prize money like candies
That's why you aren't/wouldn't be a billionaire
Ehh billionaires spend money on far less profitable things than starcraft tournaments and still dont get poor.
On November 17 2016 11:55 loginn wrote: Sometimes I really wish I was a billionaire so that I could support all these tournaments. I'd be giving prize money like candies
That's why you aren't/wouldn't be a billionaire
Ehh billionaires spend money on far less profitable things than starcraft tournaments and still dont get poor.
The point is that you typically don't get rich by making bad business decisions
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible.
I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard.
And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice.
We need change.
Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game?
SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us.
Wow an opisska post that I actually agree with. What is the world coming to.
Staff agreeing with a post that basically projects the assumption that everyone who criticizes the game hates it and never loved it? What is the world coming to indeed.
Newsflash kids, if we hated it so much we wouldn't stick around for 6 years despite Blizzard pissing in our faces for most of that time.
Oh wait it's Plexa that explains everything lol.
On-Topic: Bit of a shame, HSC has always been one of the coolest, most entertaining tournament series out there. I'll keep tuning in to any new ones that TaKe's crew will put on in the future, even if they're gonna be downscaled or whatever. It was always about the atmosphere anyway. And when there won't be any anymore, I'll cherish the memories.
That said, crowdfunding might be worth looking into.
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible.
I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard.
And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice.
We need change.
Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game?
SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us.
Well said.
@bronzeknee The community doesn't have just 1 opinion. the community consists of thousands of people who all have a different opinion. maybe you think that sc2 is flawed and has game design issues. Then there are others who agree with you but have a completely different vision of how the game should be. and then there are the ones who think sc2 is in a good state (which is apparently a "wrong" opinion to have in your mind) What I want to say is that there's no way to make everyone happy. That you have suggested things that got implemented later doesn't mean anything, by the millions of things that the community suggests it's very probable that some of these things eventually make it into the game but that doesn't make you a better game designer than blizard. I can guarantee you, if you were in charge of the balance/design team the community wouldn't be any happier than it is right now.
Time for a TakeTV portrait pack? Blizzard never really released any numbers about the WCS one, but I'm sure plenty of people will buy it just to support Take & Co.
On November 17 2016 16:23 Svetopolk wrote: Time for a TakeTV portrait pack? Blizzard never really released any numbers about the WCS one, but I'm sure plenty of people will buy it just to support Take & Co.
This is a good idea. Also they could get more exposure when Blizzard releases "Watch" in the client.
Damn, just when I would be able to go, I may miss the shot. I hope there will still be some HSC with enough people for me to have time to grab a couple places. Great run to Take and all the other working on it. Much encouraging pashun!
But since we have yet again come to this, I also agree with Opisska.
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible.
I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard.
And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice.
We need change.
Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game?
SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us.
Well you're falling into the logical fallacy of authority and assuming I have no real experience when I have loads of game design experience, and I didn't downplay SC2 for years, I loved it for years and then tried to help change the direction when it went off course, but I'm going to ignore all of that for a second because it is all baseless assumptions.
So I pose to you this:
When Blizzard does something that significant amount of the community disagrees with it, then 6 months later Blizzard reverts to what the community originally asked, is that evidence that Blizzard is doing a good job or a bad one?
You can tell me how many ideas of mine they implemented months or years later:
As I stated, the design team has an inability to weed out bad ideas from good ones. This was the team that spent money and months of valuable time developing and testing the Warhound. That idea never should have left a designers head, it was horrendous in terms game design, indefensible. Or perhaps you'd like to defend it? Results matter, in games, in business, in life. And this design team is failing.
Yet they are the professionals? By definition yes, but only because they are getting paid, and being paid to do something is the definition of a professional.
And I love Starcraft, that is why I take the time to criticize it. Unfortunately, people like me are not the reason people aren't playing SC2 as much anymore, and pretending that negativity is the reason for the decline is ridiculous. I think the fact the game now violates so many game design principles is very much related to the decline of SC2. It doesn't have to be this way, the game can be fun again.
And yes, I absolutely want to play it this way. We get a new design team or perhaps a community made mod lead by people who understand Starcraft 2, and maybe it has a chance. Or we can watch it sink.
For every community proposition that was adopted 'too late' by Blizzard, you can find at least 5 with as much praise that is excessively bad. It's just a game of numbers. The community is just so much larger than the dev/design/PR/whatever team, and so eager with their keyboard that you will necessary find some good ideas. But flash news: you can't make the game perfect for everyone anyway.
This just feel like: 'I love you honey, just as I have for our 30 year together. But can you run faster and be richer? I mean, it's obviously better, you must be blind not to see it. It will only make me love you more.'
HSC started small and I see no problem returns to more or less its original state. A Blizzard sponsor would be awesome but with WCS2017 still undecided maybe it is more important for their esport team to nail a good agreement with GSL/SSL and IEM/ESL/DH
On November 17 2016 11:55 loginn wrote: Sometimes I really wish I was a billionaire so that I could support all these tournaments. I'd be giving prize money like candies
That's why you aren't/wouldn't be a billionaire
Ehh billionaires spend money on far less profitable things than starcraft tournaments and still dont get poor.
The point is that you typically don't get rich by making bad business decisions
Yeah that's what I hear all the time but I don't know anyone who hasn't ever made bad business decisions. They just got extraordinarily lucky that one time and ride that wave ever since imo.
Bronze you are a f*cking genius you know that. Also the game has gotten to the hilarious point where I want unit and hero kill leaderboards.
That's my RTS experience. Maybe you should play it, it's fun, and then you can stop questioning me, who you don't know.
Judge ideas, not people.
I've followed game design for years, and I've designed several board games and competitive exercise games (some are quite complex) that are currently used in hospitals and therapeutic settings to help autistic children and troubled youths. That is my job.
Anyway, that is enough about me and my involvement in this thread, I'm done here so people can go back to the issues at hand. My apologies for helping to derail this thread.
This 12-player Coming of the Horde map is so much fun. One needs to play it with good team members to fully realize how fun a multiplayer RTS game can be compared with how much frustration SC2 is capable of offering to casual 1v1 players having no countless hours to learn how to defend one cheese after another
EPT
