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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Look at cheeseadelphia right now. 28 viewers. Yesterday morning Jaedong had 6 times as many viewers as all of Starcraft. Likewise, Destiny pops in for just one day and SC2s viewers goes from 1000 to 6000. We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. | ||
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Matroid_Prime
Canada59 Posts
 . Very thankful as always for Take and what he does for SC2 | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard. And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice. We need change. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. people are doing this for 6 years now. Everyone has a different opinion on it, there's nothing the community can do about it. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:46 BronzeKnee wrote: I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. Yes, that is exactly what needs to be discussed. We cannot debate how best to polish turds with balance adjustments. No matter how many times you edit the values, the mechanics are still going to be unenjoyable. On November 17 2016 08:48 Charoisaur wrote: people are doing this for 6 years now. Everyone has a different opinion on it, there's nothing the community can do about it. I don't expect everyone to believe. But I believe that we still have the power to improve. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:48 Charoisaur wrote: people are doing this for 6 years now. Everyone has a different opinion on it, there's nothing the community can do about it. And that why you need real leadership. It is difficult to find someone who knows how to lead and manage, but we need someone who can see what needs to be done, and do it. The community is full of bad ideas, and that is why actual leadership and management is needed. The problem with Blizzard not only been their failure to develop need good ideas, but their inability to weed out good ideas from bad ones, from both their own team's ideas and community ideas. They try something, and members of the community call it out immediately and explain why it isn't the right direction, but Blizzard doesn't realize it, and goes down a failed path for six months only to finally do what those members of the community said they should do. I can give countless examples of just that. Just look at my big post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable) during the HOTS Beta where I said that Hellbats were too strong (and were nerfed months later) that the Immortal's hardened shield needed to go (and it went in the LOTV Beta), that Ultras needed a buff (and were buffed in LOTV) that Siege Tanks needed more damage (and are going to receive that soon), that the Carrier needed a buff and overlapped too much the Tempest (which is now being changed, yet again). It is just sad to see us going in circles. It is a sign of mismanagement. Blizzard needs to have the ability to weed out bad ideas from good ones and implement good ideas in a timely manner. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: If anyone is still in denial about the rapidly declining Starcraft 2 scene then please let this be a wake up call. It is time to act, not argue over whether it's happening. Look at cheeseadelphia right now. 28 viewers. Yesterday morning Jaedong had 6 times as many viewers as all of Starcraft. Likewise, Destiny pops in for just one day and SC2s viewers goes from 1000 to 6000. We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. I'm pretty sure the only people who think SC2 is doing fine are beyond any wake up call. They've just buried their heads in the sand so far and choose to believe that SC2 is on the upswing and is the best it's ever been, as illogical as that is. | ||
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saltis
159 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: If anyone is still in denial about the rapidly declining Starcraft 2 scene then please let this be a wake up call. It is time to act, not argue over whether it's happening. Look at cheeseadelphia right now. 28 viewers. Yesterday morning Jaedong had 6 times as many viewers as all of Starcraft. Likewise, Destiny pops in for just one day and SC2s viewers goes from 1000 to 6000. We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. Nothing you can do. Blizzard knows it but what they recently said is that basically they don't care about players number, all they care is to leave a legacy of the game as the best made RTS. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:59 saltis wrote: Nothing you can do. Blizzard knows it but what they recently said is that basically they don't care about players number, all they care is to leave a legacy of the game as the best made RTS. Make no mistake, those two things go hand in hand. People play good games and don't play bad ones, by definition of words good and bad. If Blizzard makes a good game, people are going to play it. If they don't, people won't play it, especially given the marketing surrounding SC2. But of course Blizzard shouldn't care about player numbers, they should just make the best game they can. They just need to realize that when their game is bleeding players and viewers and is in danger of not being an E-Sport, that they are failing to make a good game. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:59 saltis wrote: Nothing you can do. Blizzard knows it but what they recently said is that basically they don't care about players number, all they care is to leave a legacy of the game as the best made RTS. They said nothing we could do when Blizzard shitcanned community map makers. We bitched. Now over half of the first season of 2017 will be community created maps. You just gotta believe in yourself. Sometimes it will not work out. I'm not going to say that we have a 100% chance of changing the course. But every time someone dismisses the state of the game, or says it's just bad luck that X game came out at the same time, or excuses what happens, they don't just lack belief in change. They don't even want to acknowledge that we can improve. We can make things better. We don't have to be faithless. We have in the past and we will again in the future if we try. | ||
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derpistole
Germany33 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:41 Probe1 wrote: If anyone is still in denial about the rapidly declining Starcraft 2 scene then please let this be a wake up call. It is time to act, not argue over whether it's happening. Look at cheeseadelphia right now. 28 viewers. Yesterday morning Jaedong had 6 times as many viewers as all of Starcraft. Likewise, Destiny pops in for just one day and SC2s viewers goes from 1000 to 6000. We need to work together and put aside all the petty race balance bullshit. We need to talk about how the game has failed to captivate players and how to improve it. The time remaining for a reverse course is small but it is possible. Good point ! I guess the BEST change SC2 ever had is the 12 worker start.But it came to late - it's just so boring (wol) to have 2 minutes nothing to do just building workers(hatch first 2:10 vs 0:52). The "real" game starts now really early, i guess the 6 worker thing was a big blockade for new players to get into the game. SC2 is dying and I guess it is to late to change that state. I can remember when HSC had back in the days only on the main stream +50k viewers. The only chance that SC2 have is to make it FREE TO PLAY ASAP. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 17 2016 09:10 derpistole wrote: Good point ! I guess the BEST change SC2 ever had is the 12 worker start.But it came to late - it's just so boring (wol) to have 2 minutes nothing to do just building workers(hatch first 2:10 vs 0:52). The "real" game starts now really early, i guess the 6 worker thing was a big blockade for new players to get into the game. SC2 is dying and I guess it is to late to change that state. I can remember when HSC had back in the days only on the main stream +50k viewers. The only chance that SC2 have is to make it FREE TO PLAY ASAP. I agree. One of the greatest obstacles was Starcraft competing against games with no upfront cost. LotV has sold the bulk of what it will sell. Every successful competitive game has been dirt cheap or free. We don't need the campaign, or all the Co-op commanders to be free. We just need a strong and growing playerbase for multiplayer and that will carry sales for singleplayer, co-op commanders, and any sort of microtransactions they please. When I bring Starcraft 2 up outside Starcraft 2 sites, no ones interested. Get people interested and don't be afraid Blizzard. You've shown you care about the community and will continue supporting the game through 2017. Do that by not just making multiplayer fully free - make everyone aware. Get people in. Get people watching and excited. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On November 17 2016 08:46 BronzeKnee wrote: I agree. But I'll take it one step further, we need to talk about how the design team that has designed SC2 has failed to captivate players and demand a new one. They've had chance after chance to build off the solid foundation that was WOL (yes it had many problems, but it was a solid foundation) and they designed the game in such a way that even the Korean Professionals said the game was to hard. And then Blizzard roundly dismissed their advice. We need change. Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game? SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
On November 17 2016 09:22 dAPhREAk wrote: well this thread devolved fast. ikr? :D | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On November 17 2016 09:30 Phredxor wrote: Can we not make every thread turn into the same shit? Sure, let's just ignore the glaring problems SC2 has with Blizzard's decisions and, consequentially, viewership and amount of tournaments. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 17 2016 09:18 opisska wrote: Wow an opisska post that I actually agree with. What is the world coming to.Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game? SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On November 17 2016 09:18 opisska wrote: Do you really want to play it this way? You people who downplay SC2 for years and insist that it should be completely different and Blizzard does it all wrong, you are helping things?! That is borderline insane. I am not sure what hurts SC2 more than all this endless negativity. Can we really expect anyone to read hundreds of pages of "David Kim doesn't know what he's doing" and "look at all these design flaws of SC2" to enthusiastically jump into the game? SC2 is awesome and it is a result of an incredible amount of workhours of professionals. I have zero faith that any of the "keyboard game design warriors" could ever produce anything even remotely comparable. They have zero infrastructure, mostly zero real experience and just a heap of conflicting opinions. But they have apparently enough time to poison the world for the rest of us. Well you're falling into the logical fallacy of authority and assuming I have no real experience when I have loads of game design experience, and I didn't downplay SC2 for years, I loved it for years and then tried to help change the direction when it went off course, but I'm going to ignore all of that for a second because it is all baseless assumptions. So I pose to you this: When Blizzard does something that significant amount of the community disagrees with it, then 6 months later Blizzard reverts to what the community originally asked, is that evidence that Blizzard is doing a good job or a bad one? You can tell me how many ideas of mine they implemented months or years later: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/2416114960 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable As I stated, the design team has an inability to weed out bad ideas from good ones. This was the team that spent money and months of valuable time developing and testing the Warhound. That idea never should have left a designers head, it was horrendous in terms game design, indefensible. Or perhaps you'd like to defend it? Results matter, in games, in business, in life. And this design team is failing. Yet they are the professionals? By definition yes, but only because they are getting paid, and being paid to do something is the definition of a professional. And I love Starcraft, that is why I take the time to criticize it. Unfortunately, people like me are not the reason people aren't playing SC2 as much anymore, and pretending that negativity is the reason for the decline is ridiculous. I think the fact the game now violates so many game design principles is very much related to the decline of SC2. It doesn't have to be this way, the game can be fun again. And yes, I absolutely want to play it this way. We get a new design team or perhaps a community made mod lead by people who understand Starcraft 2, and maybe it has a chance. Or we can watch it sink. | ||
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